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Old 01-11-2008, 12:35 PM   #41
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It is still customary for gentlemen in our 50-ish generation to pay the tab, decide where we're going, and drive the car down here.

What if you want to go someplace else ? Do you get a choice ? I was brought up in a much more liberal area so I'm amazed at some of this . I always lived where whoever felt like it drove and we alternated where we would go and who would pay .I'd be a fish out of water in that other world.
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Old 01-11-2008, 01:32 PM   #42
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If you dig a bit more into his site, you will find that not only is Mr. Rockwell now married, but he also has a one year old son. So much for his comment about never having kids as they are an affront to the environment and scaldingly expensive - or something like that.

Like with everything else, people tend to evolve as their situations change - I'll bet he wouldn't write those words about kids now. As for living with parents, it's not something I did or would have wanted to do. But our son stayed with us until he was about 24 - 2 years out of college - before he finally shoved off for the wild West. We charged him a modest rent, but saved it for him, and, when he left, sent the amount to him so he would have some extra money starting out. Our daughter was the opposite - came home from college and moved out in a few months. Something about us stifling her lifestyle :-).

As Rockwell says, it's all about priorities - I wouldn't spend the thousands he does on cameras, but that's not my passion. I finally broke down and bought a digital camera as film and developing is expensive and now I can take tons of lousy pictures instead of only a few :-). It must be nice to be able to walk to work, but for most of us in suburbia, it just ain't gonna work. Yes, it would be great to rarely have to drive, but the reality is that most people do. And I miss the point of having all those cars if you never use them - like having a Picasso in your safe and taking it out once a year to look at. What's the point?

But there are a few nuggets of interesting info in his writing - I'll just take away what I can.
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Old 01-11-2008, 02:01 PM   #43
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What if you want to go someplace else ? Do you get a choice ? I was brought up in a much more liberal area so I'm amazed at some of this . I always lived where whoever felt like it drove and we alternated where we would go and who would pay .I'd be a fish out of water in that other world.
Frank is a gentleman in every sense of the word, which includes being basically a sweet guy. He can pretty much tell what places I like and don't like, from my reactions. Also, I tell him if I think a place is wonderful or not very good. Since we go together and have the same experiences at places, we tend to agree almost completely on which ones we like. So, most of the time he chooses places that I like. We both love food, which helps. He takes me to my favorite restaurants frequently.

But often he surprises me. He is a native New Orleanian, whereas I have only lived here I guess 12 years. He knows about hundreds of little hole-in-the-walls that are unknown gems, so to speak, and he is as likely as not to take me to a place that I've never heard of or been to, that turns out to be fabulous. The last time he did this we ended up at a restaurant with mostly gay clientele and staff, in a 200+ year old building in Faubourg Marigny with 16 foot ceilings and cypress floors, and plants everywhere. I had one of the best salads of my life there! It was amazing and the staff and environment were very pleasant. I like his surprises.

Sometimes we used to go to a cheap Italian place in a bad neighborhood that had the most incredible Italian salad (we have a different name for it here) and cost almost nothing, and the waitress had probably known him for 40 years. It was destroyed in the storm and never came back, but still I am glad he took me there. I would not have tried that place myself, had he not taken me there.

I don't often suggest a place unless we are starving and places are going to be jammed, like at Mardi Gras. Then when he suggests a place on the parade route, I gently tell him that is nuts and I suggest a place that might actually have room for us, for example. Right after the storm when it was hard or impossible to find any grocery stores or restaurants at all that were open, I did a lot of suggesting.
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Old 01-11-2008, 02:11 PM   #44
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...my criteria for a date were that he HAD to have a job....

Do I detect an anti early-retiree bias here?
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Old 01-11-2008, 02:19 PM   #45
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If you dig a bit more into his site, you will find that not only is Mr. Rockwell now married, but he also has a one year old son. So much for his comment about never having kids as they are an affront to the environment and scaldingly expensive - or something like that. I'll bet he wouldn't write those words about kids now.
Actually, he did. Ryan is over a year old, and he just wrote that "Money" article this month. Although I checked today and noticed he's deleted virtually the entire paragraph about not having kids. But even when it was "whole," he had added a comment at the bottom apologizing to his infant son. It seems someone pointed out that once little Ryan grew old enough to read, he might get the wrong idea, reading a diatribe from his father about how children destroy the planet and one's finances.
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Old 01-11-2008, 02:19 PM   #46
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Do I detect an anti early-retiree bias here?
ROFL!! I guess I should have expressed myself a little more clearly. He HAD to have a job or other means of supporting himself!
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Old 01-11-2008, 03:14 PM   #47
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tightasadrum: I get your message loud and clear. I'm just too subtle for you?
AND, by the way, your DD sounds like a very, very smart girl. If she is really great looking, paying her own way gives her back the control that she feels she would give away by having the guy pay. Hence, she feels no obligation to...shall we say...pay him back in "any" way. (Sorry, this is reality talking here, parent.) She is a sharp cookie, and I would leave her alone. Sounds like you did alright by her, and she can take care of herself pretty well without interference.
Orchidflower, I'm an engineer for heaven sake. I don't DO subtle. I was just amused. And thanks for the very kind words about DD. She's a wonderful young lady, takes after her mom. In fact, she IS her mom in many ways, particularly in brain power.
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Old 01-11-2008, 05:11 PM   #48
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Well, tightasadrum, I was in sales and sales management for over 30 years; so, if you think YOU don't do subtle....cough, cough... I just enjoy being a sarcastic smartass every once in awhile.
This is just my opinion, but, to me, this Rockwell lacks pride and character. Guess he's off my Christmas card list as--despite having some very good and usable ideas--he's kinda disgusting to me overall.
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Old 01-11-2008, 06:48 PM   #49
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Starter82, what bothered you most about that post? The phrase "hot and bothered" or the fact that you seem to agree with this guy's philosophy and are taking it personally?
This guy is a leech, a mooch, not only cheap but he lives off of other people and uses their money for his own personal satisfaction. He's a creep, and, yes, stupid women will spend time and even marry guys like him at times. But he is still a creep deep down.
And if you can find any redeeming features in his philosophy of life, well...good for you. I agree with a few things he says, but mooching off others is definitely not one of them. And if you can find some wonderful insides to this guy...well, you are far better at finding them than I have been. I say he is a mooch, leech and creep. Sorry.
Interesting that in the Northeast of this country going Dutch is accepted. It doesn't seem to work that way in the Midwest or the South yet. But I am not opposed to picking up the tab every once in awhile either. It equals things out more, I think. And, if we women want our economic freedom, we have to take some responsibility.
Nothing in particular bothered me about the post. I find it symptomatic of the larger issue, defined perspective.

I don't think he's the things that you attribute to him. I don't believe the he's a leech or mooch. I didn't see extensive evidence of that, nor do I truly believe that it's all that possible. My feeling is that if people willingly give you things, they're yours for the taking. What counts as "willingly"? Pretty much everything. Most people will complain about others living off them yet never address the issue. If the issue hasn't been addressed, I don't think it can be considered mooching.

But why is it "every once in a while" that you're willing to pick up the check? Is it only "every once in a while" that you want to be equal or take responsibility? To me, that at the least resides in the zip code next to mooching (per the definition that I've inferred from your posting) and is its co-habitation partner. How does mooching go? Does it only not count when it's up to any of us to pick up the check? How about for children not of legal age to have a job? Those of legal working age yet not yet old enough to be kicked out of the home?

I think it's about perspective. You say this isn't; I say that isn't. Really though, maybe 'this' equals 'that'.
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:11 PM   #50
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It would be interesting to hear from some of the single guys .Do they always expect to pay for dates even if it is a long term relationship or would they be glad to share and if they were uncomfortable with going dutch would they want the woman to compensate in other (not that way ) ways such as having him over for dinner .Just wondering ?
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:27 PM   #51
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It would be interesting to hear from some of the single guys .Do they always expect to pay for dates even if it is a long term relationship or would they be glad to share and if they were uncomfortable with going dutch would they want the woman to compensate in other (not that way ) ways such as having him over for dinner .Just wondering ?
Interesting sociology topic, I suppose, for those interested in sociology... would they feel comfortable if the woman insisted on driving, deciding where they would go, and paying exactly half the time? And what part of the country they live in and what age are they? And then there are the customs in foreign countries, where some of the single men on the board live. As someone who has lived (and dated) in many states and countries, I think I have seen a broad variety in dating customs and attitudes in different locations.
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:32 PM   #52
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Another woman point of view, one who had a long history of dating.

I was always more comfortable going dutch or taking turns, even when the relationship was serious. That included selecting where we would go/what we would do and how we would pay for it. I wanted a relationship that was a partnership. If someone wasn't comfortable with even-type sharing while dating, it certainly woudn't work long term.

Also, in the early stages of a relationship, keeping things even - feels like it eliminates any obligation for pay back - as previously noted.
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:32 PM   #53
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I As someone who has lived (and dated) in many states and countries, I think I have seen a broad variety in dating customs and attitudes in different locations.

Interesting so you can enlighten us about the other customs and attitudes .I've only lived and dated in New Jersey,Pa and Florida and they are pretty similar so I'm always interested in other customs and attitudes .
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:37 PM   #54
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I married. However if I was single and I asked a lady out I would expect to pay. If she asked me then I would expect her to pay. I figured if you keep seeing each other then it would eventually progress to going dutch. Fair is fair
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Old 01-11-2008, 08:03 PM   #55
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It would be interesting to hear from some of the single guys .Do they always expect to pay for dates even if it is a long term relationship or would they be glad to share and if they were uncomfortable with going dutch would they want the woman to compensate in other (not that way ) ways such as having him over for dinner .Just wondering ?
As a single guy, I usually expect to pay when I ask someone out. When I have been in long-term relationships, I always felt like expenses should be shared (and usually that was the case). I have lived primarily in the South, but also spent a few years in the PNW. In my experience, southern women have been somewhat less comfortable sharing dating/relationship costs but that seems to be changing.
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:31 PM   #56
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Frank is a gentleman in every sense of the word, which includes being basically a sweet guy. He can pretty much tell what places I like and don't like, from my reactions. Also, I tell him if I think a place is wonderful or not very good. Since we go together and have the same experiences at places, we tend to agree almost completely on which ones we like. So, most of the time he chooses places that I like. We both love food, which helps. He takes me to my favorite restaurants frequently.

But often he surprises me. He is a native New Orleanian, whereas I have only lived here I guess 12 years. He knows about hundreds of little hole-in-the-walls that are unknown gems, so to speak, and he is as likely as not to take me to a place that I've never heard of or been to, that turns out to be fabulous. The last time he did this we ended up at a restaurant with mostly gay clientele and staff, in a 200+ year old building in Faubourg Marigny with 16 foot ceilings and cypress floors, and plants everywhere. I had one of the best salads of my life there! It was amazing and the staff and environment were very pleasant. I like his surprises.

Sometimes we used to go to a cheap Italian place in a bad neighborhood that had the most incredible Italian salad (we have a different name for it here) and cost almost nothing, and the waitress had probably known him for 40 years. It was destroyed in the storm and never came back, but still I am glad he took me there. I would not have tried that place myself, had he not taken me there.

I don't often suggest a place unless we are starving and places are going to be jammed, like at Mardi Gras. Then when he suggests a place on the parade route, I gently tell him that is nuts and I suggest a place that might actually have room for us, for example. Right after the storm when it was hard or impossible to find any grocery stores or restaurants at all that were open, I did a lot of suggesting.
I think it is a generational thing as much as a locale thing. Being a 50'ish male, I (try to) behave much like Frank. You figure out what your 'date' likes and if they more or less match what you like, then it turns into a nice relationship. I think that women (and sorry if I am putting words in your mouths) of my generation like to be treat ... well like ladies.
I would be interested in knowing the ages of the responders to see if my theory holds. ... just curious ...
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:33 PM   #57
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Nothing in particular bothered me about the post. I find it symptomatic of the larger issue, defined perspective.

I don't think he's the things that you attribute to him. I don't believe the he's a leech or mooch. I didn't see extensive evidence of that, nor do I truly believe that it's all that possible. My feeling is that if people willingly give you things, they're yours for the taking. What counts as "willingly"? Pretty much everything. Most people will complain about others living off them yet never address the issue. If the issue hasn't been addressed, I don't think it can be considered mooching.

But why is it "every once in a while" that you're willing to pick up the check? Is it only "every once in a while" that you want to be equal or take responsibility? To me, that at the least resides in the zip code next to mooching (per the definition that I've inferred from your posting) and is its co-habitation partner. How does mooching go? Does it only not count when it's up to any of us to pick up the check? How about for children not of legal age to have a job? Those of legal working age yet not yet old enough to be kicked out of the home?

I think it's about perspective. You say this isn't; I say that isn't. Really though, maybe 'this' equals 'that'.
Starter .. seems to me that when it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, ...likelihood of being a duck is pretty good.
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Old 01-12-2008, 12:49 AM   #58
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It would be interesting to hear from some of the single guys .Do they always expect to pay for dates even if it is a long term relationship or would they be glad to share and if they were uncomfortable with going dutch would they want the woman to compensate in other (not that way ) ways such as having him over for dinner .Just wondering ?
Single guy here.

I think many factors go into who pays:

1. Whomever asks has a greater obligation to pay.
2. Whomever chooses the restaurant or movie has a greater obligation to pay.
3. If there is a significant discrepancy in salaries or wealth, I think the wealthier or higher income, as a practical matter, has a greater obligation to pay.
4. I do have somewhat of a sexist bias in that I think all other things being equal the guy has a greater obligation to pay. But mostly this is a consequence of the previous three points more often indicating the guy.

Personally, I would really appreciate a woman who offers something, even if it's not 50/50. Like if she offers to get the tip, or if I bought dinner she pays for the movie, or if I pay for the movie she buys the popcorn or soda.

I also would prefer taking turns paying over going dutch all the time.

In a serious LTR, it seems reasonable for each to contribute at least very roughly according to their incomes. But that is not what I would expect or directly demand. I would take the approach of asking and paying for everything, hoping to see some initiative on her part to offer to pay or asking me out in return. If those two things didn't happen then there wouldn't end up being an LTR.

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Old 01-12-2008, 08:01 AM   #59
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I think it is a generational thing as much as a locale thing. Being a 50'ish male, I (try to) behave much like Frank. You figure out what your 'date' likes and if they more or less match what you like, then it turns into a nice relationship. I think that women (and sorry if I am putting words in your mouths) of my generation like to be treat ... well like ladies.
I would be interested in knowing the ages of the responders to see if my theory holds. ... just curious ...
You aren't putting words in MY mouth... I enjoy being treated like a lady by the gentleman in my life. It shows mutual respect, which is a fine thing to be showing. We are 50'ish also (53 and 59). I always offer to pay, and he always declines but often lets me pay the tip, sometimes a little more. He earns 6 figures and I still only earn 5, though actually that is probably irrelevant for him.

Most gentlemen our age in this part of the country will open the door for me and walk on the street side of me on a sidewalk, though he only follows these customs erratically. It's confusing for guys who were raised to be Southern gentlemen, but who find out as adults that they might or might not offend someone by opening a door for her.
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Old 01-12-2008, 09:28 AM   #60
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I think it is a generational thing as much as a locale thing. Being a 50'ish male, I (try to) behave much like Frank. You figure out what your 'date' likes and if they more or less match what you like, then it turns into a nice relationship. I think that women (and sorry if I am putting words in your mouths) of my generation like to be treat ... well like ladies.
I would be interested in knowing the ages of the responders to see if my theory holds. ... just curious ...
Most of the men I've dated in my 50's heldthe door ,pay for the dates and do all the gentlemanly things which is really appreciated .I do think they all were pretty happy when I cooked them a nice meal in return or picked up tickets to a show .I live with someone now and we take turns paying for dinners out .I live in Florida which is south but not southern if you know what I mean .My So is a born and raised Florida cracker .I'd love to hear from some of our middle of the country people to find out the customs their .This is really interesting and eyeopening to me .
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