Live for Less Elsewhere

travelover said:
As we learned when a member of our party was robbed at knife point in St. Croix. I was stunned to hear the police officer say, "did you give them your money or did they take your money?"
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The Virgin Islands can be rough places. I was in KMart on St. Thomas and found local rum to be cheaper than Coca Cola. The unemployment on many of the Caribbean islands is out of sight.

Go to Puerto Rico and you'll find burglar bars on every house, door and even the carports. You just have to be careful where you go.
 
Bamaman said:
The Virgin Islands can be rough places. I was in KMart on St. Thomas and found local rum to be cheaper than Coca Cola. The unemployment on many of the Caribbean islands is out of sight.

Go to Puerto Rico and you'll find burglar bars on every house, door and even the carports. You just have to be careful where you go.
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Yep, but my point is that when the police and the crooks feel more allied with each other than the police with you as an outsider, it can rough to get justice.
 
There are several condos in the Philippines that are near shopping malls and commercial complexes are walking distance. There are several condos just beside the SM City Mall in Ortigas, or in Makati. Or get a condo in the new Fort Bonifacio city. There are a lot of real-estate developments that create entire living ecosystems - high-rise condo + club house + shopping centers + restaurants + movies, and you may never need a car. If you go to Metro Cebu, same thing - high rise condos in Ayala Cebu shopping center. I know that you can buy health insurance in the Philippines - just don't know how much.

hnzw_rui said:
In LCOL area perhaps. As I've only lived in SoCal, no idea how cheaply you can live in other states.


That 800 sq ft house/condo costs $400+K where I live. In the Philippines, a similar condo in an expensive area would cost ~$100K. Real estate property taxes are pretty cheap, too. I think we paid less than $100 per year or something for our old house (built by great, great granddad). Wouldn't want to drive in the Philippines. Drivers and traffic are much worse there than in SoCal during rush hour.

That said, you're on your own when it comes to medical and that can get quite expensive. On the other hand, long-term care is much less expensive than in the US.
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Living abroad in 2nd or 3rd world low cost countries can be an amazing experience for an early retiree in many aspects - mental stimulus, cost differences, etc etc .

Those who have lived abroad know what I'm talking about.

By and large it's a very small percentage of the North American population who even hold passport.

And... For those that try it ... Well it's just not for everyone.

But... If you've not actually tried living abroad, please ... be kind , rewind ...
 
utrecht said:
That is pretty naive. A place with very few laws may look way too much like what happens in prison. The biggest and strongest survive.
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Also...the legal systems in other countries might well differ from those (we think) we're familiar with.
 
utrecht said:
That is pretty naive. A place with very few laws may look way too much like what happens in prison. The biggest and strongest survive.
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Having spent some time in a developing country, I can tell you from first hand experience, that you are correct. There's a lot of corruption and society is generally unfair and unkind to the weak or poor. You can bribe officials to look the other way during building constructions, you can get government services expedited while others have to wait months and years, you can get criminal charges dismissed or not brought at all if you have the right connection, you can marry under age girls and sexually abuse kids without a peep from the authorities. This is just a sampling of what I've seen in those countries. Yes you can live cheap but you have to be prepared to look the other way because you can be killed or go along for the ride.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum
 
hurricane harry said:
Be afraid
stay home
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No, I think you need to travel more. But being afraid is not too bad an idea. Listen to what people are saying here, a lot of good advice from people who have been there.

My in-laws live in a 3rd world country, I have spent quite a bit of time there too over the years. They always keep some cash on hand because if they have a fire in the house, the fire truck will come, but if they don't pay them, they will just let the house burn. Same with ambulance. The police? If you don't pay them, they won't do anything for you. Even if you do pay, they probably won't do anything.

Hit and run drivers? It is the rule rather than the exception. Get hit by a car, the driver will speed off, often over you, and passers by will rush to you. Not to your aid but to rob you. Even if a policeman sees it happen he will do nothing. No police protection remember?

If you do go to the police better have money, a lot or they will do nothing. Even if you give them money they will probably do nothing.

You cannot park your car or moto outside without paying someone to look after it. If you don't have big bars on all your home windows, and steel doors and good locks, you will get robbed. Some friends (even in a gated community) have gotten robbed a number of times.

Don't talk on your cell phone on a busy street, it will be snatched, if you are a woman expect to have your bag snatched at night, even if you are careful. Yes, my wife's friends have had it happen to them, multiple times.

No medical malpractice. You go to a doctor and take your chances. After he gets your money (yes he gets it up front), he may or may not care what happens to you, or even have any qualifications whatsoever. If you die, nobody will care.

My wife, when she first came to the U.S. was also upset by all of the laws and rules and regulations. Had to study the traffic laws, take a written test, and then a driving test. Hey, in her own country you just paid the man a couple of hundred dollars, no tests at all. Why all the fuss here?

Now, years later she understands and loves the driving here. Drivers actually follow the laws and the traffic moves. In her country, even with far fewer cars, usually there is gridlock in the intersection with nobody moving at all. When we had a minor traffic accident here she saw me and the other driver exchange insurance info, and then drive off. In her country she said there would likely have been a fight. We keep our cars parked outside here all the time. She is not afraid to be walking here in the city at night.

We love to travel, and want to live part time in her country (our last trip was 3 months there), but you have to be aware of your surroundings.

We would all like to have fewer restrictions on what we can do. But IMHO your comments about fewer laws are incredibly naive.
 
Costa Rica

I have heard Costa Rica is a great place to retire as an American. Lots of ex-pat communities, great hospitals and clinics and relatively cheap. Not sure about crime, but I have heard the weather and the focus on living green is really attractive. Plus lots to do.
 
Aye, aye, aye...

I have been reluctant to visit less developed countries, let alone living there. Yes, I am chicken as well as being too much a creature of comfort. Being constantly alert for European pickpockets is about all I can handle.

I guess if you are a repatriate or your spouse is one, it is easier. Else, without speaking the language or knowing the customs, including knowing whom to bribe when the occasions arise, it would be too stressful for me. But then, I already admit that I am chicken.
 
Forgot to add that being an introvert, if I need to cut my living expenses I would live in a small RV in the boondocks. Third-world countries tend to have very crowded cities. And to avoid crowds, I don't think any here would want to live in a rural area of these countries where there are absolutely no amenities. They may not even have roads, paved or not.
 
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Some people move 50 miles and it's like they're in a foreign country, others go halfway around the world and make themselves right at home. Life can be dangerous everywhere.

It's not the money or cost of living, it's the lifestyle and attitudes. In developed western countries, people expect things to happen a certain way. When they don't, they complain. In developing countries one never knows what to expect. If you like life that way, living overseas can be very exciting. Moving abroad to a low cost of living area but expecting the predictability of modern western life can have a terrible outcome.
 
MichaelB said:
It's not the money or cost of living, it's the lifestyle and attitudes...
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Absolutely. It's not too different than people's favorite food. I like pâté and liver, while many crinkle their nose. It's all about what a person is comfortable with. What's good for one is not so for another.
 
In my experience the number one predictor of someone's ability to be an expat long-term is the quality of the friendships they form in their chosen place - and unless you marry into your chosen host culture (and quite possibly even then) most of those sustaining friendships are likely to be with fellow expats from your own culture.

That's why expat havens in Mexico like Lake Chapala and San Miguel de Allende work so well, ditto Costa Rica, Ecuador and Panama.

India, even though I love some aspects of it, would be about as tough as it gets. It's maybe not quite as xenophobic as Thailand but has far worse infrastructure problems. You take your life in your hands, literally, going on the roads and the air pollution in major cities is the worst in the world - the equivalent of a several pack-a-day smoking habit.

The rule of law issue that others have mentioned is certainly real anywhere in the developing world. Mexico, where we've lived for several years on and off, functions amazingly well for a country that has, essentially, no rule of law, but you have to realize there will be no recourse of any kind if you're the victim of robbery or petty theft and plan accordingly. Day-to-day life in the highlands of Mexico is great though, with phenomenal weather, great food year-round at a small fraction of U.S. prices and far better and more affordable health and dental care for starters.

Another thing to look at is realistically how often you will feel the need to return to the U.S. Air travel and other expenses can quickly eat up an entire year's worth of expat cost savings, and if you choose to live in a country without access to consumer goods you covet those trips back home can get so expensive you'd be better off staying put.

Between ACA subsidies and living in a late-model mobile home we own outright in a beautiful but low-cost area we've found it quite possible to live in the U.S. on about what we spent in Mexico but it isn't easy and is certainly nowhere near as stimulating and colorful.
 
kevink said:
In my experience the number one predictor of someone's ability to be an expat long-term is the quality of the friendships they form in their chosen place - and unless you marry into your chosen host culture (and quite possibly even then) most of those sustaining friendships are likely to be with fellow expats from your own culture.

That's why expat havens in Mexico like Lake Chapala and San Miguel de Allende work so well, ditto Costa Rica, Ecuador and Panama.

India, even though I love some aspects of it, would be about as tough as it gets. It's maybe not quite as xenophobic as Thailand but has far worse infrastructure problems. You take your life in your hands, literally, going on the roads and the air pollution in major cities is the worst in the world - the equivalent of a several pack-a-day smoking habit.

The rule of law issue that others have mentioned is certainly real anywhere in the developing world. Mexico, where we've lived for several years on and off, functions amazingly well for a country that has, essentially, no rule of law, but you have to realize there will be no recourse of any kind if you're the victim of robbery or petty theft and plan accordingly. Day-to-day life in the highlands of Mexico is great though, with phenomenal weather, great food year-round at a small fraction of U.S. prices and far better and more affordable health and dental care for starters.

Another thing to look at is realistically how often you will feel the need to return to the U.S. Air travel and other expenses can quickly eat up an entire year's worth of expat cost savings, and if you choose to live in a country without access to consumer goods you covet those trips back home can get so expensive you'd be better off staying put.

Between ACA subsidies and living in a late-model mobile home we own outright in a beautiful but low-cost area we've found it quite possible to live in the U.S. on about what we spent in Mexico but it isn't easy and is certainly nowhere near as stimulating and colorful.
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Finally some good advice after a bunch of buzz kill post's.
 
Didn't mean to be a buzz kill; just trying to set expectation.
 
We are still looking. Been looking and travelling for a few year. Not so much about cost as where we want to live. We are enjoying looking.

So far we have ruled out the UK, USA, Costa Rica, and Thailand. We plan to go back to Mexico for a second look at PV, perhaps Panama, and then southern Spain or Portugal. Plan is to spend seven months away and five months where we currently live.
 
I sometimes feel that common sense takes a holiday when this topic comes up. 3rd world is great if you are looking for adventure, and additionally are either fairly young or very rich.

But an understanding of language and culture and laws and peoples attitudes is hard to come by. Some people are not even very good at syncing with the people one town away from where they were born.

I can live nicely in a good part of an attractive US big city, and not need to spend much time on infrastructure or learning the lay of the land or how to behave. For the most part, I can look in the mirror before I leave home in the morning and combined with the way I speak, and the fact that I am generally looking to minimize any appearance of not fitting, I know a good deal about the way things are likely to go. I also understand the local weather, the background attitudes of different types of people here, how people usually drive, on and on. This to some people may be boring, but to me it just clears the deck for all the activities and interactions and relationships that are the real purpose of my life.

Even a moderately expensive US city is not that expensive if one is opportunistic about real estate cycles among other things. NYC, LA beach communities, and good parts of SF and Berkeley cost a lot. And these are very desirable places, but now are out of many budgets and certainly mine. But if you don't mind drizzle you can have an excellent life fairly cheaply in Seattle or Bellingham or Portland.

I bought my condo outright, so my main expenses are food and medical care and property tax/HOA-and of course all these things are exceeded by income tax which follows wherever one might go. And I live in the middle of things, so I don't need a car. So much is going on that it is basically impossible to get bored. I imagine there are many other places like this, or at least some of them.

Ha
 
I think people should live elsewhere only if they promise to report here on how it's going for those of us who live vicariously. I love reading about it. Photos are good too.
 
We plan to live elsewhere but probably not for less. For awhile we will change locations every 6 months or so enjoying what each has to offer. When we travel now we always go off the tourist trail and go where the locals live. Have never been afraid and I do not expect or want things to be safe and predictable.
 
How many times are articles written that state the best place to retire on low incomes is in other countries? The articles sound wonderful until you research and read what expats and other people who live there tell you.


Not every place is bad but I want to know if you need bars on the windows, or never to leave the house with electronics in the house, or you are only safe if you reside in a gated expat community. Never go out with expensive items or in the evening. In some poorer countries when you have money you are targeted.


Do your homework before you sell everything and move. Many expats are trying to get back to the USA because they read the articles without checking the country out first.


Sorry if this is a downer post but just like investing you should always research before jumping into anything.
 
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