Moving to Latin America...help!

[Surewhitey]

We are moving, likely to Playa del Carmen, Mex. We've visited there a lot over the years and we have hooked up with 2-English congregations for local support and volunteering.

Has anyone got advice for us in their transitions to another country? If you have stories of Mexico (no doom & gloom about body parts, please), please share them.

We are also planning on visiting a few other places, say, Lake Chapala (Mexico) or north of San Jose (Costa Rica) in the summer (cooler there) and coastal regions in the winter, maybe Belize too.

We will have a budget of living on $2-2,500 in areas outside of tourist spots. We've spoken to a few we know personally who talk about $1-1,500, so we're trying to be reasonable & conservative.

We do not have a home to leave (aka renters) and our kid-o is married living in Dallas, so we can get back quickly if need be.

Our financial situation is appx. $950k (pretty liquid on half) and no "assets" to speak of. Planning on selling everything but what we can fit in one car and driving it to Dallas to leave at our daughter's house. We have appx. $6k annually in dividends coming in currently with $115k invested, another $180k in cash accounts & a small loan to the kido's; the rest is in CD's & 401k's. All in all, I expect a modest 4-5% on average or $38-47k annually.

We should be able to not touch our principal for the most part and our returning to the states is undetermined right now. I have a hunch, maybe 2 years.

What our your thoughts

 

[haha]

We are moving, likely to Playa del Carmen, Mex. We've visited there a lot over the years and we have hooked up with 2-English congregations for local support and volunteering.

Has anyone got advice for us in their transitions to another country? If you have stories of Mexico (no doom & gloom about body parts, please), please share them.

We are also planning on visiting a few other places, say, Lake Chapala (Mexico) or north of San Jose (Costa Rica) in the summer (cooler there) and coastal regions in the winter, maybe Belize too.

We will have a budget of living on $2-2,500 in areas outside of tourist spots. We've spoken to a few we know personally who talk about $1-1,500, so we're trying to be reasonable & conservative.

We do not have a home to leave (aka renters) and our kid-o is married living in Dallas, so we can get back quickly if need be.

Our financial situation is appx. $950k (pretty liquid on half) and no "assets" to speak of. Planning on selling everything but what we can fit in one car and driving it to Dallas to leave at our daughter's house. We have appx. $6k annually in dividends coming in currently with $115k invested, another $180k in cash accounts & a small loan to the kido's; the rest is in CD's & 401k's. All in all, I expect a modest 4-5% on average or $38-47k annually.

We should be able to not touch our principal for the most part and our returning to the states is undetermined right now. I have a hunch, maybe 2 years.

What our your thoughts

There are people on the board who live full or part time in Mexico and may be able to give you specific information, but that likely would be easier and better directed if you were to give them some specific questions.

Ha

 

[Surewhitey]

OK, here it goes.

What has been your experience of the hardest change in moving?
What is your budget on a modest living in the city of your choice?
How did you wrap up things here at home?
Did you sell everything or do you have dual residencies?
We're thinking of keep it simple at first, so we're planning on "selling it all".

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Surewhitey,

Even famous Perpetual Tourists maintain a home base in the US. Budget for returning once a year.

It appears that eventually most people come home, for example due to declining health or following death of a spouse or more often, they just give up. It is not a sin.

I am not retired anywhere, but I am working far, far away and have observed expats and Perpetual Tourists with interest (and envy) over the years.

 

[DoraM]

We vacationed in CR for a month and found it to be pretty nice, but...

The roads are NOT up to the standards of USA. They do put nice little hearts on the road where people have died, to raise awareness, but then again, they constantly drive on the wrong side of the road to avoid potholes (but most of the potholes are on the interstate). The one lane bridge we went across to get to Manuel Antonio had gaps in the rusty metal/wood structure repaired by placing loose 1 inch gas pipe side by side over the holes, which still allowed a gorgeous view of the river 40 feet below. We were distracted at the time by the cement truck following us closely over the bridge...

The grocery stores are NOT like those in the USA. You would think that the produce there would be much better than in the USA, but except for fresh pineapple, the selection at any Fred Meyer just blows away the best of the CR groceries. If you get into a smaller village, they had things like meat sitting out on plates above the cooler (in 90 degree heat). I cooked some steaks we bought so thoroughly they were like shoe leather.

OTOH, you could eat rice and beans like they do and live for peanuts in a very very pretty environment.

 

[Sarah in SC]

We have folks we know who retired to Belize. I'd probably prefer it to anywhere else in Central America, if for no other reason than it is English speaking. Plus, there are more Belize natives living in the US than in Belize, so a lot of shared experiences.

It is tough to adapt to a totally different lifestyle at any time, but the older you get, I think the harder it is. Only you can know if your temperament and flexibility are suited for such a change. I would like to think we are, but I know in my heart of hearts that I like having reliable electricity, a grocery store down the street, and my long-time friends close by.

Others are simply more adaptable and able to accommodate the upheaval. I wish sometimes that we were.

 

[Surewhitey]

Surewhitey,

Even famous Perpetual Tourists maintain a home base in the US. Budget for returning once a year.

It appears that eventually most people come home, for example due to declining health or following death of a spouse or more often, they just give up. It is not a sin.

I am not retired anywhere, but I am working far, far away and have observed expats and Perpetual Tourists with interest (and envy) over the years.

Yeah, got that covered. We'll have to go either to a border country or back home every 6 months due to the tourist visa only being good for 6 months anyhoo. I'm sure the wifey will opt for visiting the little girl...

Good thing is, Dallas is easy to get to from most countries down there.

 

[Surewhitey]

We have folks we know who retired to Belize. I'd probably prefer it to anywhere else in Central America, if for no other reason than it is English speaking. Plus, there are more Belize natives living in the US than in Belize, so a lot of shared experiences.

It is tough to adapt to a totally different lifestyle at any time, but the older you get, I think the harder it is. Only you can know if your temperament and flexibility are suited for such a change. I would like to think we are, but I know in my heart of hearts that I like having reliable electricity, a grocery store down the street, and my long-time friends close by.

Others are simply more adaptable and able to accommodate the upheaval. I wish sometimes that we were.

I agree on the adapting comment. I do jones for a good hamburger while I'm down there. I'd like to think my friends will find time to vacation cheaply down there too. Either way, we will visit friends & family every 6 months or so in LA & Dallas.

We've looked at Belize too as they might as well be a US territory; English, money, etc.
We're finding that there are many, many places with ex-pats and already have some contacts to meet quite a few. Just doing it is the biggest job. Once we put in our notices, that's when it becomes real. I'm curious of our emotions after we do that...going to be interesting.

 

[kevink]

Having been there, done that (2 years @ Lake Chapala in Mexico):

1. Maintaining a U.S. home base gets expensive in a hurry unless you plan very carefully. If your home base is a park model mobile home in a place like Arizona or Florida you can probably rent it to snowbirds at a high enough price to cover the substantial fixed expenses of space rent, utilities and insurance. Otherwise, you need to plan on having friends or relatives with lots of extra room.

2. Take a hard look at other fixed, recurrent expenses of being in the U.S. Health insurance premiums are probably the biggest (you can pay out-of-pocket or buy into the gov't plans for peanuts in Mexico). Car insurance and contracts for cell phones/TV packages etc. also deserve a look.

3. Coming back to the U.S. twice a year will probably eat up all the money you save living in Mexico or elsewhere in Latin America and more. Airfare is not cheap anymore and not likely to decrease. At ~$600 RT per person and assuming a couple, two weeks visiting the U.S. is going to set you back at least 3-4 grand after you add in lodging, car rental (you have to buy liability and comprehensive cover now since you presumably don't have a U.S. plated or insured vehicle anymore), trip insurance, shopping splurges (you'll feel deprived, I guarantee it), on and on.

If you truly want to save money you need to learn to eat and shop like locals, be car-free, use the bus system and not plan on coming home more than once a year unless it's on someone else's dime.

 

[MichaelB]

OK, here it goes.

What has been your experience of the hardest change in moving?
What is your budget on a modest living in the city of your choice?
How did you wrap up things here at home?
Did you sell everything or do you have dual residencies?
We're thinking of keep it simple at first, so we're planning on "selling it all".

If you haven't lived outside the US you might consider putting your stuff in storage, renting your house, and then renting a place for 1 year where you intend to live, just to see how it goes. If you are determined to relocate overseas but have never lived outside the US you really should have a "plan B" in case things don't end up the way you expect. Visiting a place and living there are completely different.

 

[ItDontMeanAThing]

OK, here it goes.
How did you wrap up things here at home?
...
We're thinking of keep it simple at first, so we're planning on "selling it all".

Five years before becoming an expat I went through my apartment from top to bottom and got rid of stuff.
3 1/2 years before I got rid of more stuff before moving to a new town.
6 months before I started getting rid of what was left. It still took far more time and energy than I imagined. I used a combination of ebay, Goodwill and dumpster. Before listing something on ebay ask yourself if it's worth an hour of your time, more if the packing is non-trivial, more if you can't duck out of work and go to the post office / UPS store down the block.

Wrapping up meant establishing a mail forwarding service before leaving. Get one that has the option to scans contents and post the results as a pdf file. Test it before you leave the country.

List all the essential contacts you will provide the new address. Keep checking incoming mail against the list to make sure.

My car insurance company offers 30 days of liability only coverage a year for $12 dollars. This means if I return to the states I do not have a gap in coverage, which would mean much higher premiums.

Consider doing whatever it takes to sever all ties with California because they demand income tax from expat former residents, or so I've read. It's easy to establish legal residency in Florida (no income tax) without ever setting foot in the state. My mail service (St. Brendan's Isle) is located in Florida and provided all the info and forms, but one has to be a customer to access them.

Having 2 US bank accounts with ATMs means your less likely to not be able to cash when you need it. Test ability to transfer between the two and between both and your other financial institutions using phone and internet before you leave.

Have wills. Understand what that means to an American in Mexico.

Do you have friends or family who will do whatever it takes to come to your aid if you end up on the wrong end of the law? If they have the motivation but not the funds, consider setting up a separate emergency account they can access.

Begin weaning yourself off the foods and other things you can't live without. They may be available at less than eye-popping prices, but are a budget buster if not.

When you get serious about planning the first step is to make a list of the lists you will need.

I advocate using a computer spreadsheet as a To Do list. Give each item a completion date that is expressed as days before the adios date. For example, get passport 180 days before you intend to leave. That way you can change the leave date and all the 'days to completion' will automatically adjust. Give each item a priority. I used 4=Essential, 3=Major loss of time, money or happiness if I don't, 2=Minor loss of time, money or happiness if I don't, 1=It would be nice to have the time for this. Sorting the list by Priority and Completion date keeps one focused. Include one column with sequential numbers to sort the list in the way that makes it easiest to read, modify, update, etc.

The worst and best part of getting rid of almost all of one's stuff is taking time with an item before letting it go forever. A ticket stub, a heart shaped beach stone, a photo of me holding a trophy were among the many items which gave me pause. I ended up rereading all the letters I'd saved from all my girlfriends back to the first one. Bittersweet way to spend a day but it sure didn't help my productivity.

 

[chinaco]

What is your motivation for moving to MX?

Are your plans for a permanent move or temporary (few years)?

Either way, I would rent for a year or two first (instead of committing a large amount of money and buying a home immediately)! Vacationing there and living there are two different experiences.

I do not have experience with it... but I have read that it is easy to buy real estate and difficult to sell it and get your money back. Plus, in MX, I do not think you can own property near the coastal areas... but you can get a long-term lease in some sort of trust.

Take care, you will not know what it is like (or if you will really like it) until you live it for a while.

Begin this type of a move by exploring: "what if we change our mind or don't like it".... how can we exit and not suffer a negative financial impact.

 

[arebelspy]

What is your motivation for moving to MX?

Are your plans for a permanent move or temporary (few years)?

Either way, I would rent for a year or two first (instead of committing a large amount of money and buying a home immediately)! Vacationing there and living there are two different experiences.

I do not have experience with it... but I have read that it is easy to buy real estate and difficult to sell it and get your money back. Plus, in MX, I do not think you can own property near the coastal areas... but you can get a long-term lease in some sort of trust.

Take care, you will not know what it is like (or if you will really like it) until you live it for a while.

Begin this type of a move by exploring: "what if we change our mind or don't like it".... how can we exit and not suffer a negative financial impact.

Agree.

Renting for a year or two when you first become an expat has a double advantage:
1) You can decide if it's the right move for you, as mentioned above, and
2) You get a feel for the local market, and will likely get a much better deal on the property you do buy (including possibly the price for a local, versus a foreigner, because you can make friends and get them to find out the local's price before you inquire)

Well worth renting for at least a year, to save money and make sure it's the right move (BOOM pun)

 

[haha]

Five years before becoming an expat I went through my apartment from top to bottom and got rid of stuff.<etc.>

Very, very helpful post! I'm saving it in case I ever plan something like this.

Ha

 

[chinaco]

Five years before becoming an expat I went through my apartment from top to bottom and got rid of stuff.
3 1/2 years before I got rid of more stuff before moving to a new town.
6 months before I started getting rid of what was left. It still took far more time and energy than I imagined. I used a combination of ebay, Goodwill and dumpster. Before listing something on ebay ask yourself if it's worth an hour of your time, more if the packing is non-trivial, more if you can't duck out of work and go to the post office / UPS store down the block.

...
The worst and best part of getting rid of almost all of one's stuff is taking time with an item before letting it go forever. A ticket stub, a heart shaped beach stone, a photo of me holding a trophy were among the many items which gave me pause. I ended up rereading all the letters I'd saved from all my girlfriends back to the first one. Bittersweet way to spend a day but it sure didn't help my productivity.

Very informative. Thanks for sharing that.

Heck, that last part made me homesick just reading it.... and I am sitting at home with all my stuff!

My hat is off to you for your courage to follow your dream and plan.

For all of the complaining we Americans' (i.e. USA) do... in my book, there is no place like home. I have not ever given the idea of a permanent move out of the US a thought.

But I do have a sense of adventure and love to travel. I would be more likely to travel with perhaps extended visits (ala Kaderli model). I also like the KCowan approach.... but we would rent.

 

[MichaelB]

Its amazing how easy it is to learn to get rid of stuff. When we moved from Caracas to NY in '90, everything was destroyed. Not only household things but papers, photos, family memories. That was a learning experience. Now we find it easy to get rid of stuff. Probably too much so. DW purges regularly to frees up space - to buy more stuff.

Back to the topic, our retirement plan was Caracas. We lived there for decades, owned a nice apartment (condo to US folks), had (still have) a social network, lots of friends and family. We really enjoyed life there. Things happen that are not part of the plan and unlikely outcomes do occur. Like Venezuela. Not saying it could happen in Mexico - but I do remember friends and family insisting it could never happen in Venezuela.

People need to have enough flexibility to react when things don't work out as planned.

 

[haha]

Not saying it could happen in Mexico - but I do remember friends and family insisting it could never happen in Venezuela.

People need to have enough flexibility to react when things don't work out as planned.

My political judgment tells me that when the corruption is as deep as it is in Mexico, and the outlaw gangs are as base, as numerous, and as well financed as Mexican drug gangs are, nothing short of a very concerted joint US/Mexican high cost effort will stop the slide.

This is where US attention should be focused, not in North Africa or the Middle East.

Ha

 

[MichaelB]

My political judgment tells me that when the corruption is as deep as it is in Mexico, and the outlaw gangs are as base, as numerous, and as well financed as Mexican drug gangs are, nothing short of a very concerted joint US/Mexican high cost effort will stop the slide.

This is where US attention should be focused, not in North Africa or the Middle East.

Ha

Having been close to but not part of Peru and Colombia, I'm inclined to agree. Both are smaller countries, yet were totally overtaken by violence for much of a generation. Colombia is not yet "safe", although it is better. Both have needed to suspend civil rights and engage with extreme force to persevere. Mexico has many of the same issues, and in addition its geography exceeds its capability to police effectively.

 

[haha]

Having been close to but not part of Peru and Colombia, I'm inclined to agree. Both are smaller countries, yet were totally overtaken by violence for much of a generation. Colombia is not yet "safe", although it is better. Both have needed to suspend civil rights and engage with extreme force to persevere. Mexico has many of the same issues, and in addition its geography exceeds its capability to police effectively.

Another thing is that Colombia at least has been crawling with US "trainers” and other contractors and CIA. These brave guys are fighting the good fight, but all the time they risk not only extreme danger on the ground, but extreme danger of a different sort back here at home.

I read an article recently about Afghanistan, and how when US and government forces manage to shut off the drug trade in an area, the outlaws turn to kidnapping for funding. This IMO is an always present possibility in Mexico.

Ha

 

[MichaelB]

Another thing is that Colombia at least has been crawling with US "trainers” and other contractors and CIA. These brave guys are fighting the good fight, but all the time they risk not only extreme danger on the ground, but extreme danger of a different sort back here at home.

I read an article recently about Afghanistan, and how when US and government forces manage to shut off the drug trade in an area, the outlaws turn to kidnapping for funding. This IMO is an always present possibility in Mexico.

Ha

Kidnapping is indeed well entrenched in Mexico. It happens when the drug trade shuts down and also when it gets too competitive. (Afghanistan, Iraq, and probably where the Arab Spring pushes aside long time autocrats).

There's a Venezuelan film, "Secuestro Express" (Kidnapping Express) that deals with this organized kidnapping. A bit overdramatic at times but much of what it shows is real. Spanish with English subtitles, available at Netflix.

 

[haha]

Kidnapping is indeed well entrenched in Mexico. It happens when the drug trade shuts down and also when it gets too competitive. (Afghanistan, Iraq, and probably where the Arab Spring pushes aside long time autocrats).

There's a Venezuelan film, "Secuestro Express" (Kidnapping Express) that deals with this organized kidnapping. A bit overdramatic at times but much of what it shows is real. Spanish with English subtitles, available at Netflix.

I bet the OP wasn't thinking of this when he said "Help!"

Thanks for the film suggestion, I'll get it.

Ha

 

[Sarah in SC]

And in a major thread hijack: any other Spanish language films that have English subtitles that you'd recommend as we prep for our trip to Peru, Michael? I got a few from the library and some suggestions from our Peruvian tutor, but still looking! Trying to improve our listening comprehension.

 

[MichaelB]

Sarah, if you're looking to prepare for the Peru trip I would stay away from the film I referenced above. A few we have seen and enjoyed

Maria Full of Grace (Colombia)
Real Women Have Curves (US, don’t remember if in Spanish or English)
Y Tu mama Tambien (Mexico)
Amores Perros (Mexico)
Motorcycle Diaries (Argentina)
Pans Labyrinth (Spain)
Talk To Her (Spain)
All About My Mother (Spain)
Belle Epoque (Spain)

Note: most of these are not family movies. In general, Latin American movies are not intended for children.

Mexican movies probably have the most neutral accents and would be most helpful. Followed by Spain. Movies from the deep south (Argentina, Chile) have heavy regional accents and slang that may not be very helpful.

 

[SunsetSail]

And in a major thread hijack: any other Spanish language films that have English subtitles that you'd recommend as we prep for our trip to Peru, Michael? I got a few from the library and some suggestions from our Peruvian tutor, but still looking! Trying to improve our listening comprehension.

I just watched Sin Nombre last night and it held my attention quite well. It was available through Netflix as an instant play.

 

[haha]

Sarah, if you're looking to prepare for the Peru trip I would stay away from the film I referenced above. A few we have seen and enjoyed

Maria Full of Grace (Colombia)
Real Women Have Curves (US, don’t remember if in Spanish or English)
Y Tu mama Tambien (Mexico)
Amores Perros (Mexico)
Motorcycle Diaries (Argentina)
Pans Labyrinth (Spain)
Talk To Her (Spain)
All About My Mother (Spain)
Belle Epoque (Spain)

Note: most of these are not family movies. In general, Latin American movies are not intended for children.

And some of them can really pull the guts out of a full grown man too.

I have a special section on my shelf with spanish language DVDs which are subtitled in Spanish as well as English. I think almost or all of the

Pedro Infante movies are, the one I have is El Seminarista.

Then some Almodvar movies:
Átame ( This one made me fall in love with Victoria Abril. Also has a great song at the end- Resistiré)
Carne Tremula
Mujeres Al Borde De Un Ataque De Nervios

And some Mexican Films:
La Ley De Herodes
Por La Libre
Sexo, Pudor Y Lágrimas

These are from pretty good to very good as movies, and being able to see Spanish titles is helpful to me sometimes. La Ley De Herodes is one that I like enough to watch frequently.

My study goes painfully slowly. From listening to all these movies, and lots of songs, and my carryover from years ago my accent is pretty clean. The trouble is in trying to remember all the words you need to talk reasonably well about almost anything.

I started going to a MeetUp in a bar nearby, but it is stressful because it is typical noisey bar, and about 30 Hispanics from all over and some learners are shouting in Spanish in one area, and the usual horde of English speakers are shouting in English in another area, and of course the TVs are blaring.

Sarah, I hope you and hubby are learning faster than I am!

Ha