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Old 05-12-2016, 09:15 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by samclem View Post
I'm wondering how long it will be before it becomes standard practice for police/lawyers investigating an accident to pull the codes to determine if ABS, traction control, etc were working (i.e. not disabled or inop and not fixed) and then cited as contributory causes to accidents.
I've read stories of blackbox info being used to "prove" what happen. Someday it may become SOP. Just think about the day where you may be required to submit your blackbox info each year to get your license tags or drivers license renewed (or denied or fined, as the case maybe).

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No, I don't think older cars were "safer", but I do believe the advances have come with some tradeoffs that may be underappreciated.
Agree.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:19 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by FlyBoy5 View Post
Already happening. Most of the cars made in the last 7 years have "blackboxes" (EDR, event data recorders) that record a lot of information and it's all discoverable if you decide to take them to court.

The current requirement from the NHTSA is that any event recorders installed must record a minimum of 15 data points; including, speed, steering, braking, acceleration, seatbelt use, and, in the event of a crash, force of impact and whether airbags deployed.

Decoding What's Inside Your Car's Black Box | Edmunds.com
So, if I've disabled my ABS, traction control, etc, does the Event Data Recorder (EDR) report that? The government requires the automakers to put EDRs in every vehicle, is there a law that says a vehicle owner must allow it to continue to function?
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:24 AM   #63
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So, if I've disabled my ABS, traction control, etc, does the Event Data Recorder (EDR) report that? The government requires the automakers to put EDRs in every vehicle, is there a law that says a vehicle owner must allow it to continue to function?
Even if there isn't a law that states that disabling EDR is illegal, you can be certain that there will be one sooner or later.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:54 AM   #64
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I am not in the market for new cars, so have no personal experience about any of the new safety features. Properly done, they would be helpful in preventing accidents, so I tend to prefer them.

About automation, I think that in the rush to beat competition, car makers are tripping over each other in releasing fancy-schmancy self-driving modes that are not fully tested. It will take a few lawsuits or perhaps fatalities to slow them down.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:58 AM   #65
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So, if I've disabled my ABS, traction control, etc, does the Event Data Recorder (EDR) report that? The government requires the automakers to put EDRs in every vehicle, is there a law that says a vehicle owner must allow it to continue to function?
I would assume that it would report that the system was turned off. This would be in the automaker's best interest in case someone tried to claim that the system failed when in fact the operator turned it OFF.

I don't think there is (yet) a law that says the equipment has to be used. Airbags should be replaced at 10 years, but there is no requirement to DO so. Actually, seat belts should be replaced at a certain interval as well, but there isn't a REQUIREMENT to do so...yet.

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Even if there isn't a law that states that disabling EDR is illegal, you can be certain that there will be one sooner or later.
Perhaps. But, I assume the connection to the EDR is a simple plastic bus connector. You could simple unplug it and play stupid. There would be no way to PROVE you disconnected it. Now, that isn't to say that they could tie it in with the ignition or something, basically disabling the car if you unplug it.
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Old 05-12-2016, 10:57 AM   #66
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Note that the current EDRs record no more that 30 seconds before the crash (they record in what amounts to a loop of tape (all be it is all solid state). I think there is some confusion between the auto EDR (which is primarily to determine the conditions of a crash) and things like the progressive insurance driving monitor dongle.
Recall that even the cockpit data recorder in commercial planes only records 2 hours in a loop. The flight data recorders loop between 17 and 25 hours of flight time also.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:02 AM   #67
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I've read stories of blackbox info being used to "prove" what happen. Someday it may become SOP. Just think about the day where you may be required to submit your blackbox info each year to get your license tags or drivers license renewed (or denied or fined, as the case maybe). Agree.
Just like cell phones, there is the concept of illegal search, so before a cell phone or black box can be used as evidence there would need to be a search warrant.

Perhaps that is why there have not been big civil cases of cell phone texting being at gross negligence fault for texting while driving. The cell phone users refuse to hand over the phone or even "drop" it in the toilet.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:05 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by FlyBoy5 View Post
Because cell phone jammers are against the law and the financial punishment for using them as levied by the FCC is VERY EXPENSIVE. I recently read a FCC levied fine against a warehouse for using a jammer to keep employees productive. That warehouse got to pay a $29,250 fine.

https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-pro...ee-cell-phones
You misread what I was wondering about. Wondered why someone hasn't lost big big bucks for causing wreck while on phone.

Well aware of legality.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:14 AM   #69
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Rather than a jammer, how about limiting the programs to operating at say 5mph or less. You could get a beep that tells you you missed a call or txt, but not who it was from or what it is. If you want to find this info out you have to slow below 5 mph. You could hook the tone into you contacts and have a different tone for 'important people'. Yea, you can still have an accident at 5 mph, but the probability of serious injury should be low.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:55 AM   #70
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Note that the current EDRs record no more that 30 seconds before the crash (they record in what amounts to a loop of tape (all be it is all solid state). I think there is some confusion between the auto EDR (which is primarily to determine the conditions of a crash) and things like the progressive insurance driving monitor dongle.
Recall that even the cockpit data recorder in commercial planes only records 2 hours in a loop. The flight data recorders loop between 17 and 25 hours of flight time also.
Definitely, but in the 30 second period, you can glean a LOT of information as to what someone was doing.

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Just like cell phones, there is the concept of illegal search, so before a cell phone or black box can be used as evidence there would need to be a search warrant.

Perhaps that is why there have not been big civil cases of cell phone texting being at gross negligence fault for texting while driving. The cell phone users refuse to hand over the phone or even "drop" it in the toilet.
And in regards to a civil case, if you "misplace or destroy" something that is discoverable, you could find yourself in a heep of trouble. Not only to mention that you won't have to have the physical phone to determine if they were using the phone or not.

And, the cases do happen. Most are settled, but in some cases, it goes to trial with bad results for the defendant.

https://www.schmidtandclark.com/22m-...cident-lawsuit
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Old 05-12-2016, 01:58 PM   #71
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Why do you want to disable ABS?

I know some enthusiasts try to get more performance, even if it disables some smog equipment or cause the car to fail emissions requirements.

I guess if cars are a hobby more than just a conveyance.

I was watching Top Gear where they were driving a 75k M5 with 550hp to show how fast it is. Then I look at all the traffic in most major metropolitan areas and wonder what's the point of such a car.
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Old 05-12-2016, 02:21 PM   #72
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Why do you want to disable ABS?
A skilled driver can outperform ABS.
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Old 05-12-2016, 03:14 PM   #73
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In what, not locking up the brakes in slick conditions?
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Old 05-12-2016, 03:36 PM   #74
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At the rate of adding gizmos to cars, won't need drivers license. Instead a Systems Administrator's certificate to manage the driving system.

I see an awful lot of people driving their cars/minivans/SUVs/pickup trucks at what would have been years ago the far limits of the vehicle's driving envelope. Anotherwords well beyond their actual ability to control a car or truck at the speed they are traveling. Relying blindly stupidly on the stability control, ABS, radar/ultrsonic braking control etc..

Then they continue that method in the winter after fresh snow and/or ice or just after a rain shower when the road is slicker than normal dry pavement, and are distressed at finding themselves wrapped around a tree, under a tractor trailer or in a ditch.

The sure deserve the Darwin award.
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Old 05-12-2016, 03:47 PM   #75
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I'm one of the soon to be beta testers of the model X. It's going to be an odd upgrade to my 2006 Honda civic. I haven't had a "nice car" in quite a while and I'm a sucker for all the tech on it.

I like Tesla cars but wouldn't buy Tesla stock so I guess this is how I can contribute?

Any way I cut it... it's an indefensible expense I plan to enjoy a lot . I won't pretend to rationalize it any other way.

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I thought my friends were crazy when they bought their Tesla.. I'm like really you have nothing better to do with your money?? and now I'm eating my words. It is super sweet. Just couldn't believe the acceleration, no noise, plus just the general coolness factor. I of course worry about what happens when something breaks (ie.. the handles disappearing are cool.. until they don't work). On the downside though insurance will have to eventually catch up to it because they had an accident, someone ran into them and the electrical work that had to be done was rather extensive and of course pricy..so the guy is thinking oh, just a vendor bender ..no biggy its the bumpber is handed a $12K bill.
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Old 05-12-2016, 04:39 PM   #76
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In what, not locking up the brakes in slick conditions?
ABS can increase braking distances in deep snow, sand, etc (compared to what a competent driver can achieve).
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Old 05-12-2016, 05:58 PM   #77
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I run two sets of wheels and one set doesn't have TPMS sensors (and I'm too FRUGAL to pay for them)
My son has the same beef, with two sets for winter vs. summer. His complaint is that even if he purchased TPMS sensors for his winter set he'd still have to pay each year to have them reprogrammed from one set to the other. He's complained that there should be an A/B option on vehicles to accommodate the numerous people that still need separate winter tires - to the best of either of our knowledge there's no manufacturer that's yet offered this.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:29 PM   #78
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A skilled driver can outperform ABS.
That is true. However, most drivers are not skilled enough to outperform ABS.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:41 PM   #79
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That is true. However, most drivers are not skilled enough to outperform ABS.
But why should that reduce my options? In deep snow I want to turn off my ABS because I can brake better without it. Leaving it on decreases my safety, and the safety of others on the road with me. Assuming (for a limited remaining time) that a driver is still ultimately responsible for the safe operation the motor vehicle, (s)he should be able to elect to turn off the ABS. This is not about the safety of the herd or generalities, it's about making the vehicle as safe as possible in known existing conditions.
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Old 05-12-2016, 11:57 PM   #80
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But why should that reduce my options? In deep snow I want to turn off my ABS because I can brake better without it. Leaving it on decreases my safety, and the safety of others on the road with me. Assuming (for a limited remaining time) that a driver is still ultimately responsible for the safe operation the motor vehicle, (s)he should be able to elect to turn off the ABS. This is not about the safety of the herd or generalities, it's about making the vehicle as safe as possible in known existing conditions.
It turns out that a newer component of auto safety systems, electronic stability control requires ABS. On at least some vehicles it can be turned off. (2011 chevy cruze for example). But the electronic stability control reduces crashes by 35% because unless one has been to skid school, it can handle skids better than a random driver with typical training. Its just like backup cameras are required in 2018 models and I suspect a number of other safety features will come in the 2020s (before self driving arrives). Note that if you download an owners manual for cars with the safety systems, they say in big bold letters that the systems are not substitutes for safe driving.
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