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Old 06-11-2012, 08:48 AM   #41
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Plan A was work into her 70's and hope she gets hit by a bus because she had minimal retirement savings.

Plan B is in effect now - take early SS and live on the margins the rest of her life.

Hopefully the first 62 years of her life were joyful and rewarding!

Funny thing is I work with someone who could be this lady (with respect to age and income and job - admin assistant). However the lady I work with will at least get a swank government pension if/when she gets the axe (which will probably happen in the next 6 months given the political winds that are blowing). Otherwise this lady I work with would never be able to pull down a $6X,XXX salary doing admin assistant work.

There are plenty of people that think so highly of themselves that they won't stoop to jobs that are below their previously elevated status in society. For others, money is money and if you want to have enough to get by in life you have to work for it even if the employment situation isn't ideal.

edited to add: Regarding the age discrimination issue, that may be a problem for her. However I am not sure "age discrimination" is the right term. There is an army of admin assistants dying to be hired for $30000 a year. Maybe $40,000 if that figure were inflated for CA price levels. Yes, most of these are hungry young people looking to make a buck, but if that is the going rate it can be hard to pay double the price for someone who may not be as familiar with the latest in tech and software in an office environment.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:26 AM   #42
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I imagine the editor or writer gets this great idea for a story that proves something, and go out to find someone willing or naive enough to be featured in it. There are a lot of unanswered questions that might explain some things or make the subject more or less sympathetic, but if the answers don't align with the story's goal, the questions don't get asked.
I don't understand. Are you suggesting that somehow the mainstream media's ultimate motivation is anything other than informing and educating the general public? Are you suggesting that news stories I read in trusted publications are anything other than factual, objective dissertations on relevant news events? That perhaps some (surely it's a microscopic percentage) of the content that makes it onto the pages of these altruistic journals is influenced by emotion, opinion, editorial agenda, human fallability, and possibly even advertising dollars? Wouldn't that constitute a conflict of interest on a massive scale?

Surely such a scandal would be front-page news, wouldn't it?
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:28 AM   #43
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I feel sorry for these people who failed to realize that retirement was on the horizon when they were in their fifties . A woman I know from the gym is 80 and still doing real estate because she thought the housing boom would last forever . I think it is harder for some woman because their plan is to marry for security and it often does not happen.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:34 AM   #44
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In the tech bubble burst, my then company closed the local office and everyone (tech staff to receptionist) was laid off. It was a bad time to look for work as every opening had many many aspiring applicants. I was the sole support for my family, and while I had savings, I scrambled to find any work I could. I took a huge pay cut, but was employed again in weeks. Other engineers who "held out" for work comparable to what they had been receiving were still looking for a job after 2 years, when we lost touch.

Different people approach this problem differently. But that should also mean that different people get different results, based on their choices. I'm sorry for her current poor situation, but I think it's reasonable that she makes hard choices eventually.
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Old 06-14-2012, 04:21 PM   #45
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I am sympathetic for this woman and know many people in her situation, hard workers who have worked all their lives and are now jobless. They are willing to take almost anything, but the older worker physically can't keep up in many of these lower wage jobs. Not only that, but the competition for those jobs is fierce too.

This woman will bounce back and I'm sure she has many times. Not everyone is so smart or lucky to land a union or government job that will provide security and a comfortable retirement.
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:25 PM   #46
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So, is she a sheet-burner or not?

ummm, what is a "sheet-burner"? Is this a person who burns dryer sheets for warmth and cooking?
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:38 PM   #47
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I like "sheet burner". Its one of those phrases Ill need to remember.
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:47 PM   #48
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I am trying to figure out how one can have Old Testament Christianity, since Christ isn't in the Old Testament. Now, I don't want to start a religious flame war; all religions and sects are perfectly wonderful; I am just wondering about the logic.

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I love Donne.

The tenor of this thread reminds me that America has a very Old Testament sort of Christianity, .
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Old 06-14-2012, 05:58 PM   #49
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The tenor of this thread reminds me that America has a very Old Testament sort of Christianity, for me I would not hold any of her previous actions against the lady in the article. Surely charity should not be judgmental and should be freely given. Being a methodist and socialist by upbringing I think society should provide for people who are having difficulties just out of concern for our fellow man.
As a taxpayer I find it outrageous that I should have to pay taxes as charity, instead of giving my money to whom ever I chose to. I have tithed before when I was making an salary, but the choice was mine, and where it went was my choice too. It takes a village I believe, and that village is 200 sq miles.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:00 PM   #50
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I am trying to figure out how one can have Old Testament Christianity, since Christ isn't in the Old Testament. Now, I don't want to start a religious flame war; all religions and sects are perfectly wonderful; I am just wondering about the logic.

Cheers,

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Matthew 5:17-18 is generally read as what we lawyers would call an "incorporation clause" through which Jesus incorporates the Old Testament by reference.

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"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
The Law and the Prophets referenced in the quote are two of the three traditional divisions of the Hebrew Bible. The Law refers to the Torah, the first five books of the old testament; the Prophets refers to the Nevi'im, which consists of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekial etc. (you know, the prophets). The Third division, Ketuvim or Writings, is everything else.
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:56 PM   #51
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There is an army of admin assistants dying to be hired for $30000 a year. Maybe $40,000 if that figure were inflated for CA price levels.
You have no idea what admins earn or what is reasonable for an admin to earn. I'm an admin in CA and make over $70k ...which is good money but by no means a record.
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:44 PM   #52
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I think it is harder for some woman because their plan is to marry for security and it often does not happen.
A woman friend of mine says a boy goes to university to become a man, while a girl goes to get a man.

I think she is giving too much credit to the males myself.

Ha
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Old 06-14-2012, 07:58 PM   #53
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edited to add: Regarding the age discrimination issue, that may be a problem for her. However I am not sure "age discrimination" is the right term. There is an army of admin assistants dying to be hired for $30000 a year. Maybe $40,000 if that figure were inflated for CA price levels. Yes, most of these are hungry young people looking to make a buck, but if that is the going rate it can be hard to pay double the price for someone who may not be as familiar with the latest in tech and software in an office environment.
But the above does reflect some of what can be going on in age discrimination cases. That is, sometimes, there is an assumption that because someone is older -- 62 in her case -- that they aren't as familiar with the latest in tech and software.

That may certainly be the case for some people. Maybe even for most (I don't have an opinion on that). But to generalize is to stereotype based upon age. I actually do know plenty of people who are of similar age as her who are absolutely as familiar with the latest in tech and software. I know people 30 years younger than me who are less familiar than I am. But in filling jobs, all too often, potential employers may assume that the person who is over X age might be less technologically aware and might not be up to date. There is certainly nothing wrong with finding out and failing to hire if that is the case. But, I think what happens too many times, is that the person never even gets the interview and has no opportunity to show the current skills and knowledge.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:40 PM   #54
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I think it is harder for some woman because their plan is to marry for security and it often does not happen.
This makes me think about something that bugs me. Some women feel somehow OK to let men support them, but some men perpetuate this notion. Maybe I shouldn't be bugged by it, because women tend to become caretakers of children. I have no problem when women stay home to take care of children while men go out and bring home the bread. What I do not undertand is that many men would tell their wives that they could quit their work when they don't have children to take care of at home. I just don't get it.

I know three men who have done just that. (I will list two examples here... One guy was in his early 50's and the other guy was in his mid-late forties.)

One man has a wife whose back was hurting and also had gone through some bad work situations and she felt a bit burned out. He told her she could just stay home for a while, so she did. (I was like, are you sure? Wouldn't you rather she worked a few more years so you could save the money and retire early or something??) Several years later, he got laid off. I know he didn't urge his wife to look for employment at that point; he felt it was his responsibility.

Another guy who had a wife who was getting paid pretty well, but she just wasn't enjoying her work. She quit her work and he was doing free lance work at night to keep up with the same spending habit. (I was like, WHY would you do that??) He said he felt the need to do this because after all, he was the man of the house... What? He is now divorced and paying alamony and the alamony will continue until she remarries.

I told both guys that we (women) would never do for them. It wouldn't even enter in our mind as a possibility. OK, I can't speak for the rest of the womankind, but well, I did to those guys.

Maybe I am just too practical (I call it sane, but that's just me). Maybe love made thos guys do what they did. But love would never (in my opinion) make women do what these men did.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:55 PM   #55
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I have no problem when women stay home to take care of children while men go out and bring home the bread. What I do not undertand is that many men would tell their wives that they could quit their work when they don't have children to take care of at home. I just don't get it.
That's make two of us. I don't get it either. I guess part of it is just, I guess, cultural. People who grew up with non-working moms and just see it as natural for the wife to not work and don't really think about or distinguish between women with children and women without. My mom always worked -- she was an anomaly in the 1950s and 1960s -- and so it always seemed normal to me for women to work and always seemed odd when one didn't.

But, not everyone feels that way and generally feels that if the male makes enough money to support both of them there isn't anything to be gained by the wife working and they like the idea of each of them having their own sphere. I've never understood it myself but I do know many people who have been very happy with it so that works for them.
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:36 AM   #56
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Wow, that sentiment is from my grandparents' generation. "A girl goes to get her MRS degree," and all that. (My grandparents were born in the 19th century, and thus were not contemporaneous with Mr. Ha :smile.

The Growing College Graduation Income Gap | RSF Review
"More women than men graduated from college in all birth cohorts since 1950. But the gap has grown recently, with the overall college graduation rate for women now ten points higher than the rate for men–32 percent compared to 22 percent."

Granted, this finding applies to women from middle and upper income families.

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A woman friend of mine says a boy goes to university to become a man, while a girl goes to get a man.

I think she is giving too much credit to the males myself.

Ha
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:38 AM   #57
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What Katsmeow and Tmm say makes sense.


Just a quick thought or two...
I think the jobless woman could have landed in worse shape than she is. Many people have virtually nothing to rely on. It seems she just drifted around from one side of the country to the other. She may have some mental problems that we don't see from the article. I lean towards that opinion.
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:40 AM   #58
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If I'd married a man who could have afforded to support me [regardless of whether I had children], and wished to do so, I certainly would have let him do it. Sounds like ER, to me!

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This makes me think about something that bugs me. Some women feel somehow OK to let men support them, but some men perpetuate this notion. .
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:11 AM   #59
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Maybe love made thos guys do what they did. But love would never (in my opinion) make women do what these men did.
Nor did love make those women do what those women are doing. Rather, it sounds like laziness and selfishness to me. Of course, I don't know any of the people in your stories, but with the limited information you've given, it sounds like the women are taking advantage of the men, and the men love their women far more than the women love their men.
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Old 06-15-2012, 09:17 AM   #60
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That's make two of us. I don't get it either. I guess part of it is just, I guess, cultural. People who grew up with non-working moms and just see it as natural for the wife to not work and don't really think about or distinguish between women with children and women without.
Uh, not really IMHO.

I always thought that a marriage was to represent the best for both, regardless of the situation driven by culture, habit, or financial need.

As for my MIL (God rest her soul), had the responsibility for keeping six people's "living standards" elevated through her "work" she did over decades, taking care of my FIL and their four childern. My FIL was fortunate to have a good manufacturing union job that allowed her to stay at home and not just "sit there", but be there for the good of the family.

As for my own mother? She was one of those "abnormal" mothers of the 50's, who worked in the factory from an early age. She had two "childern" to take care of in those days - me and my father.

I call my father a child since he acted as one (he suffered from narcissistic personality disorder, until his passing, that was actually found to be related to his own upbringing) who demanded my mother to work (even though he himself had a great job with an great income, $+20k in the 50's). However, every Friday, he expected my mother to endorse her paycheck and give it to him for his "desires" (including airplanes, cars, travel trailers, cabin cruisers, women - one of who was later to become his wife after my mother/he divorced, and many other "toys of life"). BTW, we (meaning he) was always late on paying the "normal bills" and faced our electicity being shut off more than once.

So what is "normal"? Those spouses (either sex, or these days.......).

DW stayed at home for a decade after we were married. In the beginning, since I was in the military and she did not have the possibility to get a job (even though taking the GS exams) along with getting pregenant shortly after we were married (heck, I loved her! - still do, but beyond the age of having childern )

After the birth of our (disabled) son, she stayed at home, not only to take care of him, but also to take care of me - who was busting my butt, to keep the family going (I have no regrets - that's my "job").

When our son entered a (special) school, she had the desire to work. She said that she wanted to get out a bit and communicate with other folks, after dedicating every waking moment to our son over many years.

While we certainly were not "rich" (nor on the street) at the time, I agreed to her wanting to persue her desires. However "being the man" (yeah, I know I'm going to get slammed on that comment), I did have one "requriement". While I would not have any "claim" on her income (as my father had done to my mother), I also expected her to pick up all the expenses as related to her J*b - that is clothes, car gas/maintenance (I paid for her car, and insurance) and anything related to "her job". The reason for this is that I did not want to depend on her income for any "family" or living expenses. There was always a chance that she would not maintain her employment, either due to loss of job or future "challanges" as related to our son, which she would want to stay at home and meet his needs.

As it turns out, after 40+ years of marriage, we never counted on her income to any extent to allow us a good life. Her income over the years was (and still is, in retirement) is hers to do with what she wants. Primarly it allows her to persue her passion (world-wide travel) over the years, while in addition added more than quite a bit to our joint retirement assets.

I've lived with a MIL that didn't work (but was a "success", IMHO). I lived with a mother that did work (and had nothing to show for it).

I'm not going to take sides. I'm just telling my "life story" to show that it's not a black/white situation in many cases, of what is the norm, regardless of age...
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