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Old 06-15-2012, 09:59 AM   #61
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I think it is harder for some woman because their plan is to marry for security and it often does not happen.
I also do not get this attitude but I have met many women who have it . Even now there are lots of women in Florida who are still looking for their means to be elevated through mating .
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:00 AM   #62
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This makes me think about something that bugs me. Some women feel somehow OK to let men support them, but some men perpetuate this notion. Maybe I shouldn't be bugged by it, because women tend to become caretakers of children. I have no problem when women stay home to take care of children while men go out and bring home the bread. What I do not undertand is that many men would tell their wives that they could quit their work when they don't have children to take care of at home. I just don't get it.
Ok I'll play. For most of our married lives I have not worked and we do not have children. It has not always been about choice, work permits etc have played into it.

However, in our household we see marriage as a partnership. Just because one of us goes to work and earns the money, that does not mean that person is successful due entirey to his own efforts. We are a team working towards a common goal. My husband has worked long hours for many years and believe me he has not interest in coming home and washing his clothes, cooking his meals and paying the bills. We found when we both worked there were arguments over cleaning the house so eventually we outsourced that. Then groceries were bought and wasted and eating out became the norm because after a long day at work, yep I was working 10+ hours per day I didn't have the energy to cook. Don't forget the paperwork that had to be done. Add in that due to DH's income, when I worked over 40% was immediately lost in taxes and social security it came down to was it not best for me to just stay home.

One thing we worked out a long time ago is everything in life is not just about money. If that is your primary focus I actually feel sorry for you. I think it is far more important to find the balance between earning money and keeping it.
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:02 AM   #63
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I also do not get this attitude but I have met many women who have it . Even now there are lots of women in Florida who are still looking for their means to be elevated through mating .
U R commenting to yourself?

Sorry, but your response was from a quote that you made (forgive me, I'm just a guy..)
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:04 AM   #64
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One thing we worked out a long time ago is everything in life is not just about money. If that is your primary focus I actually feel sorry for you. I think it is far more important to find the balance between earning money and keeping it.
By my previous post, you can understand that I completly agree with you.

OTOH, life would surely be dull if we all had to follow the same "script", regardless of the pain of our own path, as written ...
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:09 AM   #65
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One thing we worked out a long time ago is everything in life is not just about money. If that is your primary focus I actually feel sorry for you. I think it is far more important to find the balance between earning money and keeping it.
I've taken a few breaks over the years and your post explains why I am encouraging DH to quit ahead of me. Not that I want to eat his cooking, but I would love for him to have more time for enjoyable pursuits as well as the stuff only he can do around the house/boat/RV etc. Wise that the both of you figured out it isn't always about money.
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:29 AM   #66
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If I'd married a man who could have afforded to support me [regardless of whether I had children], and wished to do so, I certainly would have let him do it. Sounds like ER, to me!

Amethyst
It pretty much shows that your opinion about how self-reliant women are is mostly window dressing- not for you personally, but it is still alive in the culture. Women work mainly out of economic necessity. No economic necessity, many will quit. And come divorce at whoever's instigation, unless an unusual event happens, the woman can still go on not working while the now ex-husband continues to support her, and get absolutely nothing of any value from this.

Ha
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:31 AM   #67
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And probably a few men with the same idea...in fact, I know of one...long-ago SO, with well-preserved good looks, and perpetual money issues.

Hey, however you get to ER is fine, as long as it's not hurting anybody!

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I also do not get this attitude but I have met many women who have it . Even now there are lots of women in Florida who are still looking for their means to be elevated through mating .
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:33 AM   #68
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What opinion? I don't understand. I don't make choices for other women. As long as what they do isn't hurting anybody, I don't care what they do to get through life.

A.

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It pretty much shows that your opinion about how self-reliant women are is mostly window dressing- not for you personally, but it is still alive in the culture.

Ha
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:37 AM   #69
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What opinion? I don't understand. I don't make choices for other women. As long as what they do isn't hurting anybody, I don't care what they do to get through life.

A.
Your post about grandparents' generation.

Every group exists in a fog of misrepresentation and spin. Women as a group do an exceptionally good job of that.

Ha
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:40 AM   #70
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...I would love for him to have more time for enjoyable pursuits....
I hope he appreicates you. If not, you have my permission to kick him on the side of his head ...
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:41 AM   #71
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I hope he appreicates you. If not, you have my permission to kick him on the side of his head ...
he knows where his bread is buttered!
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Old 06-15-2012, 10:47 AM   #72
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Oh, the one about old/dead people thinking most women go to college just to get married? Hardly the way to marry rich, I'd say. At least based on the college men I knew! None of 'em had a bean

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Your post about grandparents' generation.

Every group exists in a fog of misrepresentation and spin. Women as a group do an exceptionally good job of that.

Ha
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Old 06-15-2012, 11:05 AM   #73
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Oh, the one about old/dead people thinking most women go to college just to get married? Hardly the way to marry rich, I'd say. At least based on the college men I knew! None of 'em had a bean

A.
True perhaps, but for example very few new MDs have any trouble getting women, when they might not have been able to get a phone conversation with one in their pre-MD days. I have always counseled those of my nieces who are good looking but not exactly go-getters to spend their youthful beauty wisely- ie. on one of the many guys 10 -15 years older who have plenty money and appreciate a young, pretty woman.

But generally, they think I am kidding. Like most young women today, they spend a lot of time on young "good looking" or cool men who have no money, no intention of getting married, and plenty of other girls to date should some female insist on some security.

Ha
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Old 06-15-2012, 11:24 AM   #74
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Time to chime in...partially, from a child's point of view. I experienced profound emotional and spiritual support from being able to come home from school and have Mom or Grandma there. I remember them braiding my hair for school, ironing my clothes, fixing my lunch every single day - or giving me lunch money or milk money. I remember Grandma rubbing my back until I fell asleep when I was five years old. I remember Mom caring for my skinned knees, and she was always there to referee fights between my siblings and me. Those memories are priceless. They have nothing to do with money, but they certainly fed into the strengths I have today.

I believe that the archetypal feminine has, in our culture, been devalued - and, in other cultures as well. There is nothing that can take place of a functional mother. Men friends have told me that when soldiers die on the battlefield, they don't call out for "Dad," but rather, "Mom!"

That is not to say that I was only a stay-at-home Mom. During the years I have gone to school, worked, saved, worked in a professional field - and now my DH & I have a nice retirement partially due to my efforts. Plus, I was able to bandage our son's knee when he fell down - and give lots of love to my children in general.

I have found that there is a lot more that meets the eye in any story we hear about via popular media. Anyway, my $.02....
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Old 06-15-2012, 11:25 AM   #75
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That is because a 20-year-old woman thinks a 35-year-old man is ancient, and a 40-year-old man is worm food. Naturally, her perspective changes as she ages.

It is sad to see the 40-year-old guys trying to flirt with the pretty newly-hired women at work. You can almost hear the women saying to themselves, "This is a workplace, so I have to be nice; he's not actually harassing me, so I can't report him...but oh, how I WISH he'd go away!"

(Not that your advice is bad; it isn't; youthful beauty does indeed carry a depreciating value).

Amethyst

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True perhaps, but for example very few new MDs have any trouble getting women, when they might not have been able to get a phone conversation with one in their pre-MD days. I have always counseled my nieces who are good looking but not exactly go-getters to spend their youthful beauty wisely- ie. on one of the many guys 10 -15 years older who have plenty money and appreciate a young, pretty woman.

But generally, they think I am kidding. Like most young women today, they spend a lot of time on young "good looking" or cool men who have no money, no intention of getting married, and plenty of other girls to date should some female insist on some security.

Ha
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Old 06-15-2012, 11:35 AM   #76
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Time to chime in...partially, from a child's point of view. I experienced profound emotional and spiritual support from being able to come home from school and have Mom or Grandma there. I remember them braiding my hair for school, ironing my clothes, fixing my lunch every single day - or giving me lunch money or milk money. I remember Grandma rubbing my back until I fell asleep when I was five years old. I remember Mom caring for my skinned knees, and she was always there to referee fights between my siblings and me. Those memories are priceless. They have nothing to do with money, but they certainly fed into the strengths I have today.

I believe that the archetypal feminine has, in our culture, been devalued - and, in other cultures as well. There is nothing that can take place of a functional mother. Men friends have told me that when soldiers die on the battlefield, they don't call out for "Dad," but rather, "Mom!"

That is not to say that I was only a stay-at-home Mom. During the years I have gone to school, worked, saved, worked in a professional field - and now my DH & I have a nice retirement partially due to my efforts. Plus, I was able to bandage our son's knee when he fell down - and give lots of love to my children in general.

I have found that there is a lot more that meets the eye in any story we hear about via popular media. Anyway, my $.02....
I think you are 100% correct, but IMO that horse is long out of the barn. Usually to have confidence in this, one needs an alternate value and support system, apart from US standard issue. Like a strong religious community, which to some degree enforces or supports the social requirements for stability in the situation you describe. Also, somehow prople need to be immunized against the corrosive effects of US popular culture- something more likely in alternate groups.

Ha
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:16 PM   #77
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I think you are 100% correct, but IMO that horse is long out of the barn. Usually to have confidence in this, one needs an alternate value and support system, apart from US standard issue. Like a strong religious community, which to some degree enforces or supports the social requirements for stability in the situation you describe. Also, somehow prople need to be immunized against the corrosive effects of US popular culture- something more likely in alternate groups.

Ha
We aren't linked to any church - we do have good friends...my SO & I, throughout our marriage, have played leapfrog with supporting each other through our processes. In my opinion, I didn't have enough quality time with my children as they were growing up - I simply had to work.

I think you are right, Ha, about the horse already escaping from the barn. But, as an underlying current for us as human beings, I believe that we do need to re-claim the honoring of feminine principles. For me, the value of a society is how well they treat the very youngest - and the elderly.
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Old 06-15-2012, 12:49 PM   #78
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True perhaps, but for example very few new MDs have any trouble getting women, when they might not have been able to get a phone conversation with one in their pre-MD days. ...
More new MDs are women than men. Just throwing that in.
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Old 06-15-2012, 01:02 PM   #79
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More new MDs are women than men. Just throwing that in.
They likely have no trouble getting women either, if they should so desire.

Yes, I know that that are more new female MDs then men. That really is not the thread here though.

Ha
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:03 PM   #80
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You have no idea what admins earn or what is reasonable for an admin to earn. I'm an admin in CA and make over $70k ...which is good money but by no means a record.
Well clearly since $70k is what admins are paid, then this lady should keep holding out for that $70k figure to come along. Long term she will be best served by holding out for the salary she is owed.

You miss my point - admins are out there looking for work for jobs that pay 30-40k. Sure, some make $70k. I even work with one who makes that much. Maybe someone will get snapped up at that rate, but there are 100 more in line willing to accept much less. Maybe California is a magical land of extremely low unemployment and there is a drought of moderately qualified admin assts out there. Dunno - stranger things have happened.
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