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Old 12-17-2007, 11:00 PM   #161
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Man, I'm going to have to go looking for that at our Costco.
Its the only one I've seen, and I've been in a good dozen or so Costco's.

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I know people have written off Krispy Kreme, but around here fundraisers will actually bring in a planeload from Kahului and sell boxes of them on street corners. Drivers will start to pass by and then screech to a halt on the curb when they realize what they're seeing...
I've had a krispy kreme donut on several occasions. Frankly I dont get it. They're kind of a small donut and they're way overpriced. Nothing special. Shoot, our local supermarket sells a dozen of them, pretty much a day old, for $8.99. I'd rather go over to the bread aisle and get a dozen Entenmanns for $3.99. And grab one of their cheese coffee cakes for another $3.99.

Your choice: a 24 oz ribeye/porterhouse steak or 12 small day old donuts for the same money.

No brainer. The steak is probably better for you too.

I dont think Krispy Kremes financial problems have anything to do with low carb crazes or any other financial function...its just a so-so product thats hideously overpriced.

By the way, I think In-And-Out burgers suck too.

All of which goes to make me think...hmm...Gabe has never had a donut...

But he's tried in-and-out and only wanted to eat the tomato off of it.
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Few are REALLY selfish
Old 12-17-2007, 11:59 PM   #162
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Few are REALLY selfish

Well, I'm usually the one that asks for advice on this site and get it. So here are my two cents or suggestions.

I've skimmed most of the posts and I guess the gut feeling I have is that Bongo is not able to achieve early retirement and feels a certain sense of jealousy, and this might be his way of striking back. We've all experienced jealousy in some form or another, and have ways of making our life seem less difficult, like starting a thread to "try" and stir up some guilty feelings of the people we feel a certain jealousy for.

On the other hand, I agree with the notion that a person's life should be productive for society, even after leaving the work force. Where I disagree with Bongo is what he defines as productive. Everyone here has families, and the love within a family could not be anymore unselfish and productive in my opinion. The advice you all give to others on this website is unselfish, and you genuinely feel the need to help. As an ER, you smile more, and this certainly has an affect on others around you. There are so many ways to be productive, and many of them have no real structure to them.

At 61 years of age I'm still teaching as a full time science teacher, and I am exhausted!!!!!!!!! I have vowed this is my last year of full time teaching, and will continue to be productive whether it be tutoring one hour a day, do substitute teaching, or smiling a lot more to people around me because I am so happy to NOT need to work. Being happy to those around you is productive living. It rubs off on others.

This is hokey post, but the bottom line is very few people are "selfish" in my sense of the term.

Rob
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:45 AM   #163
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After re-reading my last post, it doesn't seem to me that there was anything new in it; just a summarization of things I've posted earlier. Perhaps it is time to lock the thread.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:03 AM   #164
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Its the only one I've seen, and I've been in a good dozen or so Costco's.
Bummer. Ours is surrounded by a Starbucks and a Seattle's Best, too, so they probably hesitate to mix it up with them.

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I've had a krispy kreme donut on several occasions. Frankly I dont get it. They're kind of a small donut and they're way overpriced. Nothing special. Shoot, our local supermarket sells a dozen of them, pretty much a day old, for $8.99. I'd rather go over to the bread aisle and get a dozen Entenmanns for $3.99. And grab one of their cheese coffee cakes for another $3.99.
Artificial scarcity. They're the best doughnuts for 2500 miles in every direction!
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:16 PM   #165
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On the other hand, I agree with the notion that a person's life should be productive for society, even after leaving the work force.
I was very productive today . I composed personalized letters from Santa and sent them to my SO's grandchildren .They love getting them and I love doing it .
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Krispy Creme, gotta be hot of the presses
Old 12-18-2007, 02:29 PM   #166
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Krispy Creme, gotta be hot of the presses

The odd Donut picked up at the corner or from the SuperMarket doesn't tell the story. The thing has to be hot to the touch, barely seconds of that funky conveyor belt system they use to get your attention inside the stores. Once they cool off, very ordinary, even less than compared to any decent Bakery. We went through a short term addiction about 5 years ago when they first opened up a branch in our little burg. Like pure uncut smack! But after some disappointments in the drive thru late at night, not getting the really HOT of the grill ones, we eventually tapered off, and now we've both been clean and sober for 4 years. I still like a VenteMochaFrapWithWip at leat once a week from Starbucks. While the donut chain folded a year ago, we now have like 10 starbucks in a relatively small city. I prefer Seattles Best for my homebrew, sipping some right now, umm umm good.

Oh and back to on topic. I don't see ER as selfish. It's just a different albiet quite rare path down life's road. I have a feeling when we finally make our move to a low cost depressed area with few job prospects and cheap land values, the local economy is going to be quite happy with our additional funds being added to the mix, whether I volunteer at the Libarary or not.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:53 PM   #167
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Roger that, Jonny. As a early adopter of KK, I agree that they are only good hot from the actual KK store, not some grocer who got them delivered who knows when. And the coffee is delicious at KK as well. I never imagined other parts of the country would "get Krispy Kreme". We always considered it a Carolinas thing.
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Old 12-18-2007, 03:17 PM   #168
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I actually went to work this morning for a couple of hours. Had a meeting with my replacement and old boss about a couple of 'work' issues. Gave my advice and then headed for the golf course.

I felt sooooooooo much better about myself. Actually made a contribution to the working world.
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I'm being highly unselfish, IMHO...
Old 12-18-2007, 05:27 PM   #169
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I'm being highly unselfish, IMHO...

I'm feeling overworked and burned out, and so having met FI I'm going to RE in March. Selfish? I don't think so.

So far my boss has hired three people to take over my workload, and I'm training them. So, by leaving the workforce, I'm creating two new jobs as well as an opening for my current position.

Then, in retirement, I'm looking into pursuing a fine arts degree in photography, so that I may provide the world with beautiful and inspiring Art.

I am making the world a better place, I am!
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Old 12-18-2007, 06:34 PM   #170
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I am unlocking $$$ tied up in assets so I can continue to be a consumer. Just because I don't w*rk for a wage does not mean I don't create value for the general good. ER moves money stored in assets and in banks and puts it back on the street again where it buys goods and services and allows someone else a wage so they can eventually stop working and continue the cycle.
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Old 12-18-2007, 06:40 PM   #171
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I am unlocking $$$ tied up in assets so I can continue to be a consumer. Just because I don't w*rk for a wage does not mean I don't create value for the general good. ER moves money stored in assets and in banks and puts it back on the street again where it buys goods and services and allows someone else a wage so they can eventually stop working and continue the cycle.
So, after ER if I spend my time, say, shopping for and buying lots of expensive shoes, that would not be selfish - - that would be my contribution to society? I like your way of thinking!
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Old 12-18-2007, 06:50 PM   #172
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So, after ER if I spend my time, say, shopping for and buying lots of expensive shoes, that would not be selfish - - that would be my contribution to society? I like your way of thinking!
We're not talking about mere expensive shoes ... we're talking really Big Screen TV's .
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:11 PM   #173
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So, after ER if I spend my time, say, shopping for and buying lots of expensive shoes, that would not be selfish - - that would be my contribution to society? I like your way of thinking!
You're killing me, W2R.

I can't for the life of me understand why people are still replying to this thread justifying why ER isn't selfish.

It's so obvious: shoes! Or in Steve's case, RV's!
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:30 PM   #174
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You're killing me, W2R.

...
It's so obvious: shoes! Or in Steve's case, RV's!
Well Duh!
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:48 PM   #175
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So, after ER if I spend my time, say, shopping for and buying lots of expensive shoes, that would not be selfish - - that would be my contribution to society? I like your way of thinking!

Yes, go for it, W2R! The shoe designers need a livelihood too! And I'm sure I'm contributing to society by going on fabulous international vacations -- tourism, airlines, foreign economies-- they all need me!

I think that this is the thread that won't die because there are underlying issues that we are all concerned about. We want our lives to be of value, after all, even if only of value to ourselves.
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:05 AM   #176
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While I agree with your statement, this irritates me, as bongo2 never made the claim that paid work is the only way to contribute to society (not quite the same thing as contributing to the economy, but still I don't think you're arguing against a position that he's taken).

Now, I disagree with his stated position that ERing to a life of leisure is detrimental to society. But let's argue against what he actually claims.
Ok..........ALL ER'd folks still have to buy food, pay taxes, utilities,and other good and services. So, you can't get away from being a consumer, no matter what.....

Using the old economic mutiplier effect, all ER'd folks are doing a fine job of keeping this economy going, which is productive to the economy..........
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:28 AM   #177
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I agree.
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:40 AM   #178
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Sorry I wasn’t able to visit yesterday. Budget cutting time at work – fun fun!

I fear that Martha is very politely waiting for me to give the word to close this thing, but if I had done so then we would have missed all these lovely posts on doughnuts! I’m sure we will all regret this, but I’m going to respond to a couple things.

Looking back over this thread I think there were some valuable comments before everyone decided to psychoanalyze my assumed RE envy. Surely I'm not the only person who knows people with plenty of money to support their spending, who still feel that work is important. It can't all be envy. I was able to clarify some of my thinking, and it seems perhaps a couple others did as well.

One of the things I was hoping to get from this thread was some rationalizations I can use on myself and others when I retire in a few years and people inevitably find out. The consensus appears to be that I should explain that I'm a moron filled with jealousy (or maybe that they are), but there were a couple other things mentioned that I might try instead. I think that this is an important issue (as evidenced by the frequency this topic comes up), and just assuming that all your friends and family are envious is a mistake.

The taking jobs away from other people - I should have just used Russell's argument from the beginning: when you have a job and earn money you either spend the money or invest it. Both cases result in the creation of a job for someone else. There is no lost job.

Tick Tock: I think you are saying above that by having capital, or by the Bill Watterson example, you have “earned it.” As I said before, that makes things different from the “slacker” example, but it doesn’t take away the problem. My Watterson example was intended to illustrate that you can earn something, but it is still selfish. You’ve heard people say, “I’ve earned the right to be selfish.” That wouldn’t be meaningful otherwise.

Is the steward of capital contributing? To the extent that you are actively identifying, evaluating, and making real investments (like a bridge or a windmill) then that is clearly true - but that's pretty much a job, right? To the extent that you are time-shifting your consumption with someone else (like a loan) then this is clearly false. Most investments that individuals make (stocks and bonds) fall somewhere in between.

Many have been offended here who are in their 60's! I'm talking about early retirement - perhaps we have a different feel for what the term means. Why does society think it OK for the 65 year old firefighter to be retired, but not the 45 year old software engineer? Here’s my summary.
  • Spending time on leisure when you are obligated to do something else is selfish. Your mom wants you to take out the trash, but you play video games. I think we can all agree on that, and just haggle about the details.
  • In this society you are expected to work more or less full time from, say, age 20-60. This is just a convention – so can we reject it if we don’t like it?
  • There is a philosophical term for this that escapes me, but there are some moral rules that exist in every society – like murder – and some that exist as a matter of convention – like parking restrictions. If you park in the handicapped spot then that is selfish. Another society might have different parking rules, and another society might have different expectations about age of retirement, but that doesn’t necessarily make breaking the conventions OK.
  • Why is this convention needed? Because you need producers to have the things society needs. You can try as hard as you like to pay for something, but if no one is making it, then it won’t be there. If paying our most productive people more causes them to work less rather than more, then the whole system pretty much breaks down, right? The ER is exploiting a flaw in the system.
If Tick Tock wants to continue I’m open to it (but at this unfortunately slow pace). I’m fine with closing it to.
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:51 AM   #179
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Got it.

RE is like murder.

We're all obligated to people who dont know us or care about us to continue working until we're old.
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Old 12-19-2007, 11:07 AM   #180
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One of the things I was hoping to get from this thread was some rationalizations I can use on myself and others when I retire in a few years and people inevitably find out.
OK Bongo, here are two choices.

1) You are unhappy/miserable about being retired. If so, no one will be jealous of you being retired. Also, no one would want you working for fear you might be working with them and make them miserable. (That would cut down on everyone's productivity to society, which would make you more unhappy.)

2) You are happy about being retired. If so, you don't care what others think.

Take your choice. Personally, I prefer door number 2.
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