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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 03:08 AM   #21
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

I tend to think the obsession with controlling diet in order to control disease, live longer, etc. is an American obsession that dovetails nicely with the "Type-A" attitudes we tend to have.

I'm far more interested in the area that's looking into bacteria and viruses as disease vectors. We used to be certain that ulcers were caused by diet and stress, which couldn't have been further from the truth! Now I have been looking into cholesterol a bit: seems that some doctors/scientists believe that cholesterol is a healing response to vascular disease and inflammation, rather than vice versa.. and that expensive statins that 'control' cholesterol are only suppressing a symptom, not effecting a cure. Maybe some of the MDs on the board can comment?

All I can say about low-protein diets is that back in the late '70s I went to visit and interview some Moonies as part of a college project. This is back when there were always clutches of them around selling flowers on the street to make $ for Rev. Moon. They had a big brownstone mansion on Comm. Ave. or Marlborough Street in Boston.. a million-dollar property even back then (you'd think that would have set off some alarms in their tiny heads, but, I digress...* : ). We were offered to share in their lunch which consisted of some pieces of potato and the odd veg. in a watery vegetable broth. I was told by someone later that they were kept on a low-protein diet to basically reduce their energy and render them more easily befuddled/docile. Not enough of a nutritionist to back this hearsay up, and I only spent a couple hours there so I can't say what they were getting overall calorie- and nutrition-wise. The place was also freezing inside.

I do know that I can feel cravings in my body that come from somewhere other than just an empty stomach or the taste buds.. sometimes I just HAVE to have a steak when I haven't had one for a couple weeks. I tend not to eat as much fruit as I should, but once in a while I see an orange, and from somewhere I get the message "I NEED that!" even if I don't particularly want it.* I don't follow any particular regime, pro or con, just try to fit veggies in where I can for a more well-rounded diet.

Italians are pretty long-lived yet vegetarianism here is a real oddity. In Tuscany everything is meat, meat, meat. What? You'd prefer not to have the spleen paste on toast appetizer? Perhaps you'd relish the slice-o-lard on toast instead, along with your tripe stew and boiled ligament salad? One ex-pat told a story of saying to her in-laws that she didn't eat meat; they offered her sausages instead.* !
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 03:19 AM   #22
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarhead*
No (Nords), I'm not suggesting that my dad's life-style led to his longevity, but almost every one of his friends and counter-parts that he worked with, and associated with had pretty much the same habits, and by and large were long lived.* Go figure

It does make me feel slightly nostalgic for a period of time when everything you did wasn't on somebodys hit list for health reasons
Me too Jarhead. I share your observation that in spite of supposedly bad habits, most of these guys and women too lived very long lives. Many of my relatives were Kentucky farmers. They all smoked; after all they grew the tobacco! Though they couldn't smoke all day because of physical demands on their hands and time, they chewed all day. Then they smoked after quitting work, rolling their own. They ate a lot, and well, including lots of vegetables because in those days farmers had gardens.

The only people I ever personally knew who didn't make it at least to his 3 score and 10, or often well beyond, were a generation later, in the city, and they were mostly fat. Like you said, your Dad couldn't eat enough to get fat. He probably would fall asleep at the table or shortly after leaving it, from the sheer physical exertion involved in logging operations. Old style farming is less strenuous than that, but still, I never saw a fat man walking behind a team or pitching hay up into a hay mow.

Ha
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 06:53 AM   #23
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

>>He's also one of the guys who wrote the original government report in 1982 that started the low-fat craze, and for that he is sorry.

So why would we believe his "study" this time?
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 07:01 AM   #24
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Some of the anecdotes here indicate to me that it's the sedentary lifestyle that is the killer rather than necessarily what we eat.

Of course what we eat matters. But the stories of the logger, etc., never getting fat in spite of high caloric/sugar/saturated fat diet. Well - the job was so darn PHYSICAL. And if you look at good health in the poorer countries, again you are struck by lifestyles with LOTS of daily physical activity.

IMO it's the sedentary lifestyle in the US that's the number one killer. Processed foods (especially processed carbs) come in second. But if people were really active, their bodies would probably be able to handle those unhealthy carbs.

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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 07:56 AM   #25
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Actually, just eating any macromolecule that has calories will kill you, be it protein, carbohydrate, fat or alcohol.

Did you know that there's only one thing that we're (the collective scientific community) certain extends life? Calorie restriction. You can read about it here. http://www.calorierestriction.org/ Further, more calories has been shown to always be a negative; even in the event where you have to consume more to make up for exercising.

Anyway, there's plenty of published research that suggests this is true. So the OP is correct, just maybe for a different reason than discussed.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 09:05 AM   #26
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

This is my diet

We only have to eat at all because of pollution
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 10:46 AM   #27
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

The relationship between diet and health is obviously a complicated one.* *Campbell's ideas are fairly simple, and they could certainly be wrong, but I think it's an important enough issue that it's worth a read.

Here's the bottom-line: in the US (and other affluent societies), we live a long time, but our quality of life in later years isn't so good, on average.* * Isn't ER about improving our quality of life?

It's clear that dietary habits differ in different regions of the world.* * It's also clear that genetic makeup differs both across regions and within different regions.

So, Campbell looked at regions in China with relatively high genetic homogeneity to reduce the genetic unknown.* * He attributes the differences in disease incidence purely to dietary differences.

Some of the surprising results include the fact that the Chinese he studied consumed *more* calories than Americans, but had almost no obesity and low incidence of heart disease, autoimmune diseases, cancer, Altzheimer's, etc.* *He asserts that this was true even after adjusting for exercise.

He also asserts that the traditional scientific reductionist approach is a failure when it comes to nutritional studies.* * For example, the famous Nurse's Health Study tried to vary dietary variables one at a time, and found that there were very few health benefits to fruit, veggies, fiber, etc.* * *But Campbell asserts that the baseline diet of the nurses studies was the typical American diet, so the relatively small variations studied were meaningless.

I couldn't possibily tell you who's right about this stuff.* * Opinions are all over the map.* *But it makes interesting reading.*
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 11:33 AM   #28
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarhead*
It does make me feel slightly nostalgic for a period of time when everything you did wasn't on somebodys hit list for health reasons
Sounds like your dad and my grandfather had the same diet. Another big guy that did everything that was "bad" for you. Lived into his late 80's. My dad did say that because meat was expensive there wasnt always a lot of it.

This comment of yours is one i've taken to heart. I've discovered that almost every "miracle" food or diet gets debunked at some point. Everything thats supposed to be bad for you at some point is found to not be so bad. There are a few things I'll set aside from that, like smoking and eating raw bacon by the pound, for obvious reasons.

Now I just eat a reasonable and balanced diet and mix it with chasing a 15 month old around moderate exercise. I'm not measuring out blueberries, drinking pomegranite juice, chewing on tofu or eating sawdust.

Life is too short and arriving safe and sound to your death bed a year or two later because you cut some of the enjoyment out of it just doesnt sound like a plan.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 11:56 AM   #29
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Life is too short and arriving safe and sound to your death bed a year or two later because you cut some of the enjoyment out of it just doesnt sound like a plan.
I dont see the main point of a great diet and exercise as getting an extra 2-4 years of life.* For me, its more about the quality of life while you're alive.* *What gives one more pleasure bang for their buck;* bliss eating something unhealthy within a 10 minute span and then feeling/looking like crap afterwards, or feeling/looking great for 24 hours a day (minus 30 minutes for eating healthy food)?* *
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 12:06 PM   #30
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

I belong to PETA .... (People Eating Tasty Animals) :. I like veggies also. I also like breathing the air, but these days seems to have more toxins in it than ever before.

Unless you want to become a recluse, freak, or isolate yourself from the rest of society, doesn't it all come down to moderation of all things. Isn't genetics a big key to longevity?
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 01:14 PM   #31
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Eat right.

Don't Smoke.

Don't drink alcohol.

Exercise 4X per week.



Die anyway.
You may make a more attractive corpse but you're still dead in the end.

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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 01:37 PM   #32
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Since menopause I've lost much of my appetite for red meat. I don't seem to crave a burger or steak often, and when I do eat them, I don't want more than a few ounces. I have gotten a little hungrier for poultry (which I used to dislike except with crispy skin ;-) and absolutely craving shellfish. I practically live on shrimp, garlic, & cabbage these days.

My favorite eat-out meal is at a Vietnamese restaurant in North Charleston--rice noodles with grilled pork and shrimp, bean sprouts, hot peppers, cilantro, and a bit of light sweet & sour sauce...d@mn, I'm hungry! (I skipped lunch, having had a shrimp & scallion omelet for breakfast* )
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 02:37 PM   #33
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Now I just eat a reasonable and balanced diet and mix it with chasing a 15 month old around moderate exercise. I'm not measuring out blueberries, drinking pomegranite juice, chewing on tofu or eating sawdust.
Huh... thats funny... I do eat lots of blueberries, drink pomegranite juice AND chew on tofu, but do NOT feel I am depriving myself of anything.

I do not eat the flesh of any animal for the simple reason of health.

The health of the animal
The health of myself
The health of the environment

If you look into it, you too may also find it advantagous

Some studies suggest that vegatarians live 8 yrs longer than meat eaters.
I feel that vegetarians do NOT live 8 years longer, but, that meat eaters live 8 years less than non meat eaters.

Are these studies based on meat diet alone? Could people who choose not to eat meat also take care of themselves in other ways also?

Many, many variables... but one things for sure.... the cow sure appeciates it when you don't eat it! :-)
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 02:42 PM   #34
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

There wouldn't be very many (any?) cows if we didn't eat them--not in the US, anyway. Just sayin'.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 03:53 PM   #35
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gReeNy

Some studies suggest that vegatarians live 8 yrs longer than meat eaters.
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Your messing with my early retirement plan.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 04:00 PM   #36
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Some studies suggest that vegatarians live 8 yrs longer than meat eaters.
Quote:
Your messing with my early retirement plan.
Now That's funny!

Quote:
There wouldn't be very many (any?) cows if we didn't eat them--not in the US, anyway. Just sayin'.
I know what you mean... here in Alberta (cow country), we'd be left to live off our oil reserves, for gods sake.... if it wern't fer cows!
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 07:16 PM   #37
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Here are a couple of pages that take a closer look at Campbell's book as well as the common inferences drawn from the China study:

http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/chinastudy.html. This site comes from another bias, that the ideal diet is our ancestral one (before the advent of factory/processed foods). It is a relatively unexplored perspective that is based on the work of a dentist named Weston Price. In the 1950s this guy traveled the world to observe the health of "primitive" people who lived apart from modern civilizations. He found all of these people to be extremely healthy by our standards: no heart disease, cancer or other degenerative/chronic problems, very few had cavities. Surprisingly their diet emphasized animal fats and other mineral/vitamin rich animal foods. You can find the compilation of his work in his book "Nutrition and physical degeneration", http://www.westonaprice.org also has a lot of relevant information.

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/...-anat-8e.shtml is a statistical review of some of the salient points of the original China study and how they relate to a vegan diet.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 08:06 PM   #38
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritasophia
Here are a couple of pages that take a closer look at Campbell's book as well as the common inferences drawn from the China study:
http://www.westonaprice.org/bookrevi...nastudy.html.* This site comes from another bias, that the ideal diet is our ancestral one (before the advent of factory/processed foods).*
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/...-anat-8e.shtml is a statistical review of some of the salient points of the original China study and how they relate to a vegan diet.
So far I have only read the first article, a review of Campbell's book. Thank you for the interesting links. If the table from the bottom of the page is accurately copied from the China study, case closed- there is little or no reason to pursue this matter of animal protein causing cancer any further.

FIGURE 1: Associations of Selected Variables with Mortality for All Cancers
Total Protein +12%* *Carbohydrates +23%
Animal Protein + 3%* *Total Calories* +16%
Fish Protein + 7%* *Fat % Calories - 17%
Plant Protein +12%* *Fiber +21%
Total Lipids - 6%* *Fat (questionnaire) - 29%*



* statistically significant ** highly significant *** very highly significant

I paln to read the other article later.

Ha
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 08:25 PM   #39
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

An aside on China and diet- The Mongol Genghis Khan who conquered the world, and according to DNA studies may be a direct progenitor of 25% of the people now living in Eurasia, ate what all Mongols ate and continue to eat today-- a diet almost entirely composed of meat and camel's milk.

Worked for him!

Ha
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 08:46 PM   #40
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Made him a mean mofo that wanted to kill people and hump a lot? Hmmm...
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