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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 08:57 PM   #41
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

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Originally Posted by HaHa
If the table from the bottom of the page is accurately copied from the China study, case closed
I liked that review and actually agree with its premise that Campbell's book reads like a biased case for veganism. But, you need to consider that the review came from a site dedicated to spreading the gospel about the benefits of animal fat and raw milk. And the "selected" stats in that table contained only one that was noted to be statistically significant. No idea what the source or context is.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 09:47 PM   #42
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

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Originally Posted by wab
I liked that review and actually agree with its premise that Campbell's book reads like a biased case for veganism.* * But, you need to consider that the review came from a site dedicated to spreading the gospel about the benefits of animal fat and raw milk.* * And the "selected" stats in that table contained only one that was noted to be statistically significant.* * No idea what the source or context is.
Wab, I agree with your comments about Weston Price Institute. They claimed that the table came from the original paper published about the China study.

I haven't seen that study, so I can't comment.

Ha
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 10:11 PM   #43
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

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Originally Posted by HaHa
I haven't seen that study, so I can't comment.
Me either, but I'm just noting that the author of that review called the stats in that table "selected" and noted that all but one wasn't statistically significant (i.e., whatever context he pulled them from, they were published as due to chance and unreliable as statistics).
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 09:21 AM   #44
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

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Some of the surprising results include the fact that the Chinese he studied consumed *more* calories than Americans, but had almost no obesity and low incidence of heart disease, autoimmune diseases, cancer, Altzheimer's, etc.* *He asserts that this was true even after adjusting for exercise.
Seems like HOW you adjust for the exercise factor would be very subjective here. It may be that physical has a much LARGER effect on total health than he assumes.....

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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 09:21 AM   #45
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Two weeks ago I went back on the Atkins (low carb) diet. I had been on it for three years and had lost 17 pounds and kept almost all of it off. My cholesterol and blood pressure were fine. About a year ago my wife went on Weight Watchers and I got bored with the low carb diet. I began eating low fat, whole grains, lean meats and fish, etc. Even though I was exercising 6 days a week (walking 4 miles X 3, swimming 1.5 miles x 3) I regained all the weight I had lost. My cholesterol spiked up to 242 and my bp went up to 145/75. That kind of diet just doesn't work for me. My doctor put me on a fairly high dose of Lipitor but it has caused some serious side effects so I have stopped taking it. I will try the low carb diet again for a few months and get my lab work redone. I think that everyone is different and you just have to find what works for you.

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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 10:22 AM   #46
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

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Originally Posted by audreyh1
Seems like HOW you adjust for the exercise factor would be very subjective here.* It may be that physical has a much LARGER effect on total health than he assumes.....
He gives a review of his methodolgy in one of the appendices, but he doesn't touch on whether exercise was measured or how they adjusted for differences.* *As far as I can tell, he simply asserts that rural Chinese are able to eat more calories without gaining weight because a plant-based diet increases thermogenesis (i.e., the body burns more calories by generating more heat).

FWIW, in general his methodology looked solid to me, but if somebody really wanted to poke holes in the study, they'd probably have to pour over the 1000-page manuscript that they generated.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 11:18 AM   #47
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Personally I believe that a predominantly plant-based, low-protein, high-carb diet combined with a sedentary lifestyle is a recipe for disaster.* What you see in developed countries is a big rise in metabolic syndrome when the refined carb intake is high and exercise is low.* Type 2 diabetes results.* And we are seeing a diabetes epidemic in children as well as adults in this country.* What changed for the kids?* Increased in sugar intake (plant-based) as opposed to foods like milk and a change to an incredibly sedentary lifestyle.

There is no connection between diabetes and protein or even fat intake.* But there is a connection between carb intake and diabetes, and between sedentary lifestyle and metabolic syndrome/diabetes.* *Most carbs come from plants - even refined carbs like the sugar in sodas, etc., come from grains!

If the lifestyle is physically active, then it appears the body can process a high-carb diet just fine - even if the carbs are fairly refined (e.g. white rice).* And from the China studies it appears even overeating calories doesn't cause problems under these circumstances either.

So I can't help but conclude it's the sedentary lifestyle that is the major culprit.

Things are pretty darn complicated at the cellular level!

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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 11:34 AM   #48
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Eh, what was in Benjamin Franklin said, "Everything in moderation." ...or was it variety is the spice of life?

Wab, DW and I discussed it, we are going to go 30 days on a "cleansing" diet, no sugars, alcohol, refined carbs red meat etc. Still working out if we'll eliminate chicken and fish, we are finding a space along the continuum that we are comfortable with. We're going to join the experiment. I will comment when we formalize our diet plan.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 11:39 AM   #49
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Wab, DW and I discussed it, we are going to go 30 days on a "cleansing" diet, no sugars, alcohol, refined carbs red meat etc.... I will comment when we formalize our diet plan.
Hmmmmm. Maybe you should eat some of the bark off the uphill side of that pine tree. That would probably cleanse you plus encourage the tree to grow in a more favorable direction.

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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 11:41 AM   #50
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Eh, what was in Benjamin Franklin said, "Everything in moderation." ...or was it variety is the spice of life?

Wab, DW and I discussed it, we are going to go 30 days on a "cleansing" diet, no sugars, alcohol, refined carbs red meat etc. Still working out if we'll eliminate chicken and fish, we are finding a space along the continuum that we are comfortable with. We're going to join the experiment.* I will comment when we formalize our diet plan.
I'm all for this with the exception of the alcohol part. Rather give everything else up, but the wine is mandatory.*
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 11:42 AM   #51
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

I'd have something snappy to say but this twig is stuck in my teeth.

30 days isn't much of a commitment, but I think we'll be able to feel a difference by then, if so we'll try another 30....
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 11:45 AM   #52
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

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Originally Posted by Eagle43
I'm all for this with the exception of the alcohol part. Rather give everything else up, but the wine is mandatory.
we love wine, and will add it back in moderation at some point, but we want to add things back in a slow, methodical way and isolate how we feel. Basically, after being pretty good for 18 months, we've been trashing ourselves for the last two with the stress of her finishing up all her projects and coming home and long work days for me. So we want to clean the slate....
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 12:12 PM   #53
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Hey it's pretty well established that a daily glass of wine (or equivalent) is healthy - especially for men. So there is no reason to cut it down to zero!

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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 12:31 PM   #54
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

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Originally Posted by Laurence
Wab, DW and I discussed it, we are going to go 30 days on a "cleansing" diet, no sugars, alcohol, refined carbs red meat etc.
Yikes, is that cleansing with a jackhammer and a wire brush?!? I would've started with a more achievable goal like not eating after bedtime!

I don't know who's going to suffer more-- you having to go to the office while your body's trying to "adjust", your co-workers (who, for their own safety, really deserve to be warned of what's going on in your life), your wife having to be home all day with twigs & nuts, or, even worse, having to clean out the fridge & freezer while dealing with the cravings.

Could you post your progress daily so that we know when to have the rescue service check on you guys? If we don't hear from you in 24 hours we'll know there's trouble...
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 12:40 PM   #55
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

I think we live in an unusual window of time, when everyone cares about all this health nut stuff. Throughout all of history until about thirty years ago, no one knew or cared what nutrients were carcinogenic or antioxidants or good or bad cholesterol; they just went about their lives and derived nourishment and pleasure from food. In about thirty years, what you eat will have a completely negligible impact on your health compared to pills, nanobots, genetic engineering or whatever; people will just go about their lives and derive pleasure from food.

It's only in this little window of time that anybody can plausibly claim to give a crap whether you eat "whole foods" or meat, or drink alcohol or smoke tobacco or other goodies. And the whole period will have lasted for less than the duration of an average human life in the first world.

I think I'll just skip out, and consume pretty much what I please within moderation.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 12:42 PM   #56
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Or, to quote a bumper sticker:

"Back in the 70s you did acid; now you won't eat white bread..." :
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 12:44 PM   #57
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Oh, and just to clarify, I mean no offense whatsoever to anybody. Other people are free to believe in what they want and live how they want, and it's no skin off my back. I'm merely offering my observations, and not trying to criticize anyone else's choices. I guess words like "health nut" could be taken as offensive, but it's just my mental shorthand as I quickly jotted down my post.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 02:06 PM   #58
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1
Personally I believe that a predominantly plant-based, low-protein, high-carb diet combined with a sedentary lifestyle is a recipe for disaster.* What you see in developed countries is a big rise in metabolic syndrome when the refined carb intake is high and exercise is low.
I'm not an expert, but I believe you are correct about the refined carbs, and wrong about high-carb in general.

Campbell stresses *whole* plant-based foods. Even the traditional low-fat guys like Ornish are now agreeing with the low-carb guys about refined carbs. This is one area in which everybody seems to be in agreement, and that is that highly refined carbs are too easy to digest, so they cause a spike in insulin, and those insulin spikes are bad for you in the long-term. If you're always awash in insulin, then you'll probably develop insulin resistance, which is the precursor of type-II diabetes.

So, my interpretation of Campbell's *whole* plant thing is that unrefined carbs take longer to digest and don't cause the same sort of insulin spikes you see with other carbs.

I used to think that a calorie was a calorie, and a carb was a carb, but now I'm convinced that there are important differences.

I've seen how a low-carb diet improves my blood chemistry, but now I'd like to see what a high-carb diet does where the carbs are all in their native hard-to-digest forms.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 02:14 PM   #59
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

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Originally Posted by Laurence
Wab, DW and I discussed it, we are going to go 30 days on a "cleansing" diet, no sugars, alcohol, refined carbs red meat etc.
I'm on day three now.* *I eat nuts and fruits for snacks, and soups, salads, and stir-fry veggies for other meals.* *So far, I feel great!* Cleaner, faster, smarter, and taller.

The placebo effect is an amazing thing.*
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-13-2006, 02:20 PM   #60
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

I dont think Ornish was ever "pro refined/simple carb" or even neutral on it.

His diet stresses using beans and legumes, fruits, grains and vegetables, going moderate on nonfat dairy and commercial non/lowfat packaged goods and avoiding as much as possible meat, oil, avocado's(!), olives, nuts and seeds, dairy that isnt nonfat, sugar and sugar derivatives and alcohol.

Its not just an "avoid fat" diet, its an "avoid fat and simple carb" diet.

My wife and I both lost weight on his diet last year, felt great, energetic and we have great bloodwork numbers. We fell off of it during her pregnancy...there was something about "I WANT A STEAK AND CHEESE RIGHT NOW OR I'LL KILL YOU" moment...but I think we'll get back to it this summer. Its preparation intensive (but I have time), fairly flavorful and interesting recipes, filling, and pretty dang inexpensive.
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