Protein will kill you ...

[haha]

Originally Posted by wab

Here's the thing that separates Campbell and the China Study from the *many* anecdotes in this thread.* *Campbell did the study.* *The most comprehensive study of the effects of diet on health ever done (so says the blurb, anyway).* * Read the book, then decide.

Wab, could you post a reference to the study that underlies this book- the China Study? If I can't find it online, I will read it in the medical library.

Ha

[wabmester]

Originally Posted by Laurence

My faith is in the old phrase, "Follow the money".* What do insurance companies look for when they perform medical tests for life insurance?*

We're all self-insuring here, right? * I'm pretty sure insurance companies ask your age, and maybe your height and weight, and then check your credit rating. * They don't really care what your individual risk is, they are playing the odds based on large-scale data.

[wabmester]

Originally Posted by HaHa

Wab, could you post a reference to the study that underlies this book- the China Study? If I can't find it online, I will read it in the medical library.

Yeah, I'm too lazy to read the manuscript, but the book was just right. Let me know what you find.

Chen, J, Campbell T C, Li J, et al. Diet, Life-style and mortality in China. A study of the characteristics of 65 counties. Oxford University Press; Cornell University Press; People's Medical Publishing House, 1990.

Originally Posted by wab

We're all self-insuring here, right? I'm pretty sure insurance companies ask your age, and maybe your height and weight, and then check your credit rating. They don't really care what your individual risk is, they are playing the odds based on large-scale data.

Oh, yes they care! - I just went through this. They sent a nurse out to our house, took a blood sample, urine sample, blood pressure - the works! - Weighed us! - Measured waistlines. - This was John Hancock!

[laurence]

Exactly, did big blood work up on me, Cholesterol, Tri, blood pressure, etc.

[veritasophia]

The original study is a huge volume (almost 900 pages). From online reviews it seems like it is just an enormous collection of data with very little interpretation. So unless you are (or were ) a biostatistician good luck digging the relevant info out of it.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Yeah, the ins co's wont want you if you're fat or have any condition thats going to require them to pay for any pills.

[haha]

I ordered The China Study from my Library, but it has a long wait list. I also intend to look at the monograph.

In poking around the internet, the interesting thing is that in spite of T. Colin Campbell having what sound like high quality bona fides, his book is published by an off brand publishing house, and he spends his time traveling the country giving speeches to groups like "Montgomery County Vegans", or "Meat Out".

I also got to wondering if perhaps there aren't considerable differences between rural China and urban Western countries that go well beyond what they eat. In this regard there was an interesting study some time ago that found that Japanese men who migrated to the USA had lower CHD if they adopted an American diet but maintained Japanese social customs, than if they ate Japanese but otherwise lived American.

Also, there have been many studies over quite a few years on vegetarianism in western countries. There are plenty of women in particular who have been vegetarian their whole lives or almost so. Here is a summary of some of these studies, on 7th Day Adventists and other groups. This paper was presented at a conference of vegetarians .

http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/longtermhealthveg.html

It is quite interesting, but it doesn't seem likely that there is going to be a large effect.

Ha

[Nords]

Hey, Cut-Throat, as long as you're looking at Okinawa, take a look at the two books in this post:

http://early-retirement.org/forums/i...20658#msg20658

The Okinawa Diet Plan caused me to add more fish, more tofu, a lot more fresh fruits & veggies, to eat less than satiety, and to eat several smaller meals instead of three big 'uns.

I'm not sure which side of Walford I'm on but it's hard to ignore his results.

[wabmester]

Originally Posted by HaHa

http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/longtermhealthveg.html

It is quite interesting, but it doesn't seem likely that there is going to be a large effect.

Yup, I've also seen results that suggest that occasional meat eaters have lower mortality rates than vegans.

Some random thoughts:

The meaning of veg*an is different for different people.* * The traditional meaning says nothing about refined sugars, for example.

Campbell does talk about the importance of Vitamins D and B12, both of which might be deficient in some traditional veg*an diets.

One of my problems with the book was that it didn't cover mechanisms as much as I would have liked.* * The China Study was an ecological study.* *Nothing about mechanisms came directly from the study, but they did look at a lot of variables, including environmental factors other than diet.* * I haven't looked at the raw data, so I'm taking Campbell's interpretation on faith -- always a dangerous thing to do.*

I've mentioned that the book has its share of conspiracy theories, including stories of mainstream scientists and MD's who want to silence the pro-veggie talk.* *That sort of stuff always sets off my BS detector, so I think skepticism is warranted.

Even if Campbell is basically right, it's clear that we still have a lot to learn.* *No way is this the Last Word on diet/health.