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Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 05:30 PM   #1
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Protein will kill you ...

Yes, protein will kill you ... according to T. Colin Campbell in The China Study.

I finally got around to reading this after some anonymous poster here mentioned the book in passing.* *It's an interesting thesis by an interesting guy.

So, who is this T. Colin Campbell dood?* *Turns out he's a bonafide scientist from Cornell who grew up as a bacon and egg-eating farm boy and ended up becoming a vegan.

He's somewhat famous for studying aflatoxin, the stuff from peanut mold that's been identified as a potent carcinogen.* *(As an aside, you're more likely to find aflatoxin in peanut butter rather than peanuts.* *Nut packers save their good looking nuts for cans, and the moldy ones get made into peanut butter.)

He's also one of the guys who wrote the original government report in 1982 that started the low-fat craze, and for that he is sorry.

I had high expectations for a book from a Real Scientist (TM).* *I was hoping for an unbiased view with good insight into mechanisms of action.* *I wasn't totally satisfied, but it is a worthwhile read.* *It does come off somewhat like a vegan trying to justify his views with hard data, but he ignores or glosses over enough stuff to leave me skeptical.* * And, of course, there's a bit of conspiracy theory in the book as well.

Here is his recommendation in a nutshell: eat whole plant foods.

And here is his reasoning:

Cancer has three stages:* I) initiation, II) promotion, and III) progression.* *Don't sweat initiation.* *Carcinogens are everywhere.* *And you can't do a damn thing about genetic predisposition.* * But, it looks like animal protein is a promoter, and you can do something about that.

He found a dose-response curve for casein (milk protein) promotion of liver cancer initiated by aflatoxin.* *And no effect from soy protein.* So, his message is "don't drink milk."

This raised a couple of questions for me:

1) Protein is mostly broken down to constituent amino acids before it enters the blood stream, so how can one kind of protein be bad and another be good?

2) Protein is essential for growth, so are you just saying no growth = no cancer?* *That doesn't seem very useful.

He doesn't really answer these questions directly for me, but he has a couple of interesting tidbits I latched onto:

+ Protein isn't completely broken down in the gut, so you end up with some big fragments in the blood.* * In another section of the book, he links fragments of milk protein to autoimmune diseases by suggesting that the milk protein fragments look so much like markers for our own cells, that the immune system starts attacking itself.

+ Animal protein does contain some components that plant protein doesn't, including homocysteine, which has been implicated in some diseases.

+ Plants also contain antioxidants as part of their photochemistry machinery, so maybe that helps reduce the amount of DNA damage that's part of the cancer initiation process.

There wasn't very much "meat" in the stuff about the China Study itself (a large epidemiological study he ran), except a lot of generalizations that the less animal food consumed, the lower the incidence of disease observed.

He derides low-carb diets, but does appear to buy into the part about high-GI foods being bad for you.* * Which is why he stresses *whole* plant foods rather than processed plant foods with freely available carbs.

On the bright side, he doesn't seem too religious about veganism.* *His suggestion is to try to be a vegan, but don't go nuts if you happen to get a little bit of animal food in your diet (like chicken broth in your veggie soup).

I would have liked more data and more mechanisms, but I found the book compelling enough that I plan to give veganism a trial (with before and after bloodwork).
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 06:17 PM   #2
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

i long ago started & continue to eat a reduced animal protein diet in that i don't eat animal (mammal or bird) meats but i do utilize whey protein shakes and i do not freak out if there's beef in the broth.

however, if anyone tries taking away my oreos and milk, i'm gonna have to hurt you.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 06:29 PM   #3
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
I eat only things that I enjoy! * - Nothing like a good Filet Mignon!* Plenty of Chocolate too! Red Wine! :P

Italian Food is Yummy - So is Seafood - Lobster, Shrimp, Conch, Scallops, Crab - Salmon!
CT, I thought of you when I read one particular section of the book.* *

Page 221 (I love amazon.com's search-in-book feature).

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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 06:40 PM   #4
 
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

All of my ancestors lived until 85-95 and they also ate whatever they wanted. They all watched their weight however. I think if you're obese it doesn't matter what you eat. It's unhealthy. Same with Smoking

- Watch your weight, don't smoke, exercise and don't worry. - Enjoy life!

I don't think any food is inherently bad - except liver of course. 8)

BTW - I only eat Steak about once a month. - Keeps it special that way!
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 06:53 PM   #5
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

CT, you bring up some good points.

Genetics is huge, but you don't really know which genes you got or what you're predisposed to, so consider a cautionary approach.

I've had discussion with my BIL (a rhodes scholar chem prof, athlete, and general nut case) about exercise.* *It's true that keeping your weight down is good, and exercise can definitely help, but there's not a lot known about other mechanisms of action for the benefits of exercise.* *One theory is that you get increased capillary growth when you get your heart and lungs pumping, and that helps generally supply nutrients, remove waste, etc.

Anyway, Campbell doesn't stress exercise.* *In fact, he thinks that a veggie diet alone lets you increase caloric intake and burn more calories through thermogenesis.* * It's one of the areas in the book where I wanted more on the mechanisms, since it doesn't make much sense to me, but there it is....
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 06:57 PM   #6
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Wab, Get a hold of "Eat To Live" by Joel Fuhrman, M.D.

All you need to know about nutrition

It's available in paperback(and libraries). It will be one
of the best investments you may ever make.

You don't have to just take my word for it.



Dr. Fuhrman's Eat To Live presents a compelling, scientific, practical approach to weight loss, health and vitality that is a refreshing alternative to the plethora of popular, but largely ineffective diets and weight loss methods. For those who want to make dietary changes that will enable them to enjoy optimum health and appearance, this book is a must.

James Craner, M.D., M.P.H.
Occupational and Environmental Medicine, Internal Medicine Assistant Clinical Professor, Department of Medicine, University of Nevada School of Medicine

This is the book about achieving optimal health and weight that the scientific community has been waiting for; the "Gold Standard" via which all other diets can be judged. Dr. Fuhrman takes the latest scientific information from thousands of research studies and puts together the most effective and healthiest dietary approach possible. Everything else is just second-rate. All health professionals must read this book. I apply Dr. Fuhrman's advice to my own life because it not only makes scientific sense, it works!

Jeffrey Gilbert, M.D.
Medical Director: STD Center for Excellence @ Montefiore Medical Center, Bx Assistant Clinical Professor of Medicine: Albert Einstein College of Medicine Assistant Clinical Professor of Ob/Gyn: Albert Einstein College of Medicine Consultant: NYS Department of Health

Simply a great piece of work. Dr. Fuhrman has painstakingly taken the time to wade through the ever burgeoning mountain of evidence which proves that the American diet and many physician supported fad diets are not only unhealthy but are a contributing if not the direct cause of our enormous public cardiovascular and cancer problem. His references are excellent and exhaustive. As individuals and as a nation we cannot ignore this book. Dr Fuhrman, I commend you.

Robert J Warren, M.D.
Fellow American College of Surgery Fellow American College of Orthopedic Surgery Meridian Hospital, NJ

Dr. Fuhrman's book is a world of nutritional wisdom. He has illustrated a comprehensive familiarity with the world's scientific literature, weaving in his extensive clinical experience and insight that is a must read for every physician in America. Dr. Fuhrman offers a new, more effective approach to the treatment of various diseases and safe and effective methods of prevention. I recommend everyone remember his health equation and follow it for life.

Alexander S. Fine, M.D.
Family Physician Champlost Family Practice, PA

Finally a diet book that looks at the science of eating right in an accurate fashion. Most diet books have little basis in proven physiology. Dr. Fuhrman's book, Eat to Live deals with why we gain weight, how to lose weight, and how to stay thin and healthy for life, and he backs it up with real scientific data. All controversy ends after you read this book. It will be the final word in diet books and the one I recommend to my patients.

Thomas Davenport M.D.
Plastic Surgeon Massachusetts General Hospital Fellowship/Harvard University Microsurgery/Aesthetic Surgery Fellowship/Memorial Sloan Kettering Webster International Fellowship/Interplast

Eat to Live is a comprehensive, valuable, scientifically focused contribution empowering nutrition knowledge and a healthier life.

Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D.
Preventive Cardiology Consultant Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland, Ohio

Dr. Fuhrman comes from a practice of medicine with an excellent knowledge of nutritional science. He has superbly bridged the gap between the highly technical world of science and the real world of everyday health practice. This book is both readable and reliable.

T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D.
Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry Cornell University-Division of Nutritional Sciences

Eat to Live by Joel Fuhrman, M.D. is a landmark publication, a gimmick-free guide to the food and exercise requirements for a robust life. Introducing the key notion that healthy eating begins with the understanding that Health=Nutrients/Calories, Fuhrman explores all of the virtues of a plant-based diet. The book is meticulously referenced and includes irrefutable evidence that vegetables and fruit, rather than grains, starches, and animal foods define the basis of good nutrition. Fuhrman deftly exposes the high protein and "blood type" diets currently popular, and includes case studies of the gratifying responses of his own patients to his simple food and exercise recommendations.

William Harris, M.D.
Hawaii Permanente Medical Group, Emergency Department 30 years in practice of Emergency Medicine

To write a great and informative book on the cutting edge of health care, one that can really help people, it would take a pioneer doctor. Such is the nature of Eat To Live whose author, Dr. Fuhrman, is a hundred years ahead of his time. Fortunate is the reader who happens to come across this book. He or she walks under a lucky star!

Roy A. Alterwein, M.D.
Gynecologist/Obstetrician 35 years Lifestyle And Wellness Physician Medical Health Publications Author and Video Producer

I have been a cancer surgeon for the past 15 years and legions of patients under my care have asked, "Doctor, what do I eat now that I have been diagnosed with cancer?" The real question they were asking was, "Doctor, how do I use food to help regain my health?" Intuitively, I knew that food was medicine, but wanted supportive information that had undergone rigorous scientific documentation and was "new age" in its perspective and passion. My readings spanned the gamut from the dogmatic anecdotal accounts of self-healed evangelists and raw foodists to the writings of inflexible, pedantic laboratory scientists,. Still I was unfulfilled. Finally I found Dr. Joel Fuhrman’s book, "Eat to Live" and immediately knew I was in a sacred avant garde stream of information regarding food and chronic degenerative diseases. This book is simply an awesome piece of work and fills the gap between the ivory tower based nutrition research, which is difficult for the average person to interpret and the unsubstantiated claims of new age proponents of nutrition. For me, this is a book that dropped out of heaven.

Groesbeck P. Parham, M.D.
Professor of Gynecologic Oncology Avon Scholar for Cancer Control University of Alabama Comprehensive Cancer Center
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 07:30 PM   #7
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Merlyn, welcome to the forum!

Wab, you are really going to try going vegan? Wow. I have flirted with the idea of eliminated red meat, or even loose vegetarian, but no dairy, no fish, and if you get strict, almost all boxed foods is off limits (cereals, crackers, cookies etc.) I mean, I know there is vegan approved substitutes, but does the local grocery store carry them?

I salute anyone who goes there simply for the positive environmental impact. I think we can squeeze ten times as much food out of the Earth in a Vegetarian lifestyle, plus the slash and burn of the rainforests for McCows etc. But man, it would be hard!
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 07:33 PM   #8
 
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Laurence,

Just reading your post makes me want to go out a get Culvers Double California Butter Burger. :P

I'm Hungry!
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 07:35 PM   #9
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

See, and that's the problem, I'm feeling like I'm on board, then somebody says, "you wanna go to Claim Jumpers and get a WidowMaker Burger?".
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 07:46 PM   #10
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

I'm made of animal protein, how could it be bad for me?
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 07:56 PM   #11
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Thanks Laurence

Re "Eat To Live".
Dr. Fuhrman's book is based on his formula:

Health = Nutrition/Calories
Your health is predicted by your nutrient intake divided by your intake of calories
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 08:02 PM   #12
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Read: "Fast Food Nation" and I guarantee you'll never eat beef again.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 08:07 PM   #13
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Wab, you are really going to try going vegan?* Wow. I have flirted with the idea of eliminated red meat, or even loose vegetarian, but no dairy, no fish, and if you get strict, almost all boxed foods is off limits (cereals, crackers, cookies etc.) I mean, I know there is vegan approved substitutes, but does the local grocery store carry them?*
I plan to try it for a month or so and see what effect it has on my blood chemistry. * *I like experimenting on myself. *

Vegan probably isn't the right word. * *The emphasis is on whole plant foods, so refined sugars, flour, etc are out.

Frankly, I think the guy is going overboard by eliminating all animal food sources, and I couldn't really see the justification in his data. * *But I figure if I try to become a vegan, I'll at least end up increasing my fruit and veggie consumption, which probably is a Good Thing.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 08:57 PM   #14
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Wab -

Interesting info on peanut butter. I have always thought eating natural, rather than heavily processed stuff, was good for your health. Very balanced nutrition - good fats, low sugar, mod-low carbs and moderate protein. If it does in fact cause health problems ahh err I might be in trouble.

I don't really keep track of exactly what I eat but I make an effort to eat good food and I try to stay away from processed food. I have actually grown to dislike it. I eat red meat maybe once every 4-5 months. I go for the balanced diet with plenty of high fiber foods. For some reason I believe it has really contributed to my good health. Maybe Jarhead is on to something...

Even though I am young, I haven't gained a pound in more than 10 years since graduating high school. For some this may sound like deprivation but I actually like it and it makes me feel better. I also think in my case it is especially important to stay healthy because of my heart condition - mitral valve prolapse. I had to see a heart specialist at the age of 14 and he warned that I may need to have valve replacement surgery but I have been able to improve/maintain the condition through good diet/exercise. Making a conscious effort to eat good foods does not work for everyone but it does for me and I have never felt deprived - still enjoy a pizza once a week

Thanks for the book reco merlyn. I am going to check it out.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 09:54 PM   #15
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

If god didnt intend us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat and so dang tasty?

You dont have to toss meat out completely, just take a minimalist approach and use it as a flavoring. I make cool (as in 'not hot') rice noodle bowls with rice noodles, shredded carrots, bean sprouts, cabbage, etc...and top it with 3-4 thin strips of chuck marinated in a very spicy marinade and then grilled crispy...maybe 2-4 oz worth. The meat presence is small, but powerful.

In other words, use it as an ingredient, not the main course. Be absurd with the seasonings. Use thinly sliced "tough cuts" like chuck that have BIG beef flavor. Dont steer away from beef...excepting boneless skinless chicken breast and a handful of fish such as orange roughy, most chicken and fish have plenty of fat.

Wasnt there a thread just last week that said some proteins, in small amounts, could avert breast cancer?
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 10:00 PM   #16
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildcat
If it does in fact cause health problems ahh err I might be in trouble.
I should say that his views aren't exactly mainstream, and that he thinks the current nutritional guidelines are a byproduct of food industry lobbyists.

Basically, he says the message about eating balanced meals in moderation is just going to kill you more slowly. *

If you look at diets like those from Dean Ornish, they require pretty radical changes from "moderate" diets in order to reverse heart disease, for example. * *So, Campbell thinks you also need radical changes to stop the progression of long-term diseases of accumulative effects (cancer, heart disease, gall stones, etc).

One other thing: he doesn't like supplements, but if you go pure vegan, you'll need B12 supplements and maybe Vitamin D. * This is one reason I think he's gone overboard. * Rural Chinese don't eat B12 supplements....
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 10:04 PM   #17
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

One of Ornish's points is well taken though...its psychologically easier for many people to make BIG changes in their diet and lifestyle than for them to make small incremental ones. The big changes have a better sticking rate.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 11:12 PM   #18
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

I guess anything is possible, but it seems odd to me that humans would evolve as they obviously have in the context of a meat containing diet, and be then harmed by that same diet.

What humans did not evolve with is grains.

Re protein and cancer, careful studies are frequently rather indecisive. Take colon cancer. Supposedly red meat is bad news for the colon. But a widely publicized large study last year showed a small effect, in the distal colon only, and only if the study did not differentiate between all red meat and red meat not including cured meats. The study did not start out to study cancers in different sections of the bowel, but in what appeared to me at least to be an effort to grab any possibility of pay dirt, the authors then sliced and diced and came up with the distal colon effect. Regarding other proteins, chicken was neutral, and fish was actually protective against bowel cancer.

As regards this guy’s story about visiting meat eaters in the nursing home, a crock of **** if I may say so.* My Great -Grandfather could have said the same, if nursing homes had existed in 1944 when he finally died, in apparent good health, at age 96. Not a vegan, more an eggs, butter and meat man.

I have an axe to grind, as I could not imagine giving up meat and fish. So I would naturally feel better if an omnivorous diet appears to be reasonably healthful. Otherwise, it would be as if some expert told me, "Ha, sex is digging you an early grave. You had better become celibate."

Ok Chief, but I will have to respectfully decline the trade.

Ha





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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-11-2006, 11:30 PM   #19
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

I don't really want to live a very long life anyway, but maybe if I have kids I will think differently. Alzheimers runs in my family, and that scares the heck out of me, so maybe I will load up on the protein.
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Re: Protein will kill you ...
Old 04-12-2006, 12:50 AM   #20
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Re: Protein will kill you ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
I guess anything is possible, but it seems odd to me that humans would evolve as they obviously have in the context of a meat containing diet, and be then harmed by that same dcancer.
Ha: Plus the fact when we were growing up, nutrition was making sure you ate the food groups daily. Meat, vegetables, milk, etc.

My father started off every morning with two pork chops, eggs, potatoes, toast and coffee.

He was logger, so my mother packed him a lunch everyday. Three sandwhiches, a piece of cake or pie, and a thermos jug full of more coffee.

When he came home from work, I remember my mom yelling at him to put down that piece of pie he would try and get away with, because dinner was almost ready

For dinner, meat, potatoes, etc., and dessert afterwards.

Of course, he was a helluva calorie burner

He was a bull of a man, but never got a "gut", or had a problem with weight.

Like most of that generation, he was also a smoker, and quit when he was 78, because "the damn things went up to .25 a pack."

My dad died two months before his 90th. birthday (had a brain anuerisim) while on a stroll around the block.

No (Nords), I'm not suggesting that my dad's life-style led to his longevity, but almost every one of his friends and counter-parts that he worked with, and associated with had pretty much the same habits, and by and large were long lived. Go figure

It does make me feel slightly nostalgic for a period of time when everything you did wasn't on somebodys hit list for health reasons

Jarhead

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