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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-13-2005, 09:30 AM   #21
 
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Re: retirement trends

Hey man, if I were you I'd accept the payments too. I'd just be very wary of being dependent on evil government programs such as social security and medicare. You know, 'if your gonna walk the walk ...' Any respectable right-winger should be avocating outright repeal of social security and medicare. I'm getting to know you and I think your politics reflect your own personal interests (guns, social security, medicare, ..), and not the interests of the nation or the individual in general.
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-13-2005, 08:52 PM   #22
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Re: retirement trends

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Hey man, if I were you I'd accept the payments too. I'd just be very wary of being dependent on evil government programs such as social security and medicare. You know, 'if your gonna walk the walk ...' Any respectable right-winger should be avocating outright repeal of social security and medicare. I'm getting to know you and I think your politics reflect your own personal interests (guns, social security, medicare, ..), and not the interests of the nation or the individual in general.
What do you mean by this? If we have all contributed to this program why should we not take our money if we are conservatives. If on the other hand we could have opted out of this ponzi scheme in the first place most of us would have. If only we had a choice. Our wonderful government forces (with high taxation) us to rely on their programs.
Jeff
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-13-2005, 10:23 PM   #23
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Re: retirement trends

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If we have all contributed to this program why should we not take our money if we are conservatives.
Your money is stolen by a gang of thieves. Your response: Decry the thievery long and loud but hold your hand out when the thieves pass out some of the loot.

I don't know about you, but I'm hard pressed to see any "principles" at work.
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-13-2005, 11:12 PM   #24
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Re: retirement trends

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I don't know about you, but I'm hard pressed to see any "principles" at work.
It's the oldest principle known to man-"Thall shalt not be a dumb-ass."

Mikey
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 02:33 AM   #25
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Re: retirement trends

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It's the oldest principle known to man-"Thall shalt not be a dumb-ass."

Mikey
The 11th Commandment

JG
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 06:30 AM   #26
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Re: retirement trends

Out of curiosity, has anyone done back of the envelope math on how long you can draw SS before what you paid in would be exhausted. I've heard numbers (5 years?) but I think they assumed you stuffed the money in a mattress. Anyone factor in a decent rate of return and come up with a number?
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 06:37 AM   #27
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Re: retirement trends

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Out of curiosity, has anyone done back of the envelope math on how long you can draw SS before what you paid in would be exhausted. *I've heard numbers (5 years?) but I think they assumed you stuffed the money in a mattress. *Anyone factor in a decent rate of return and come up with a number?
Not yet, but I've been spreadsheeting my SS taxes since job #1 and assuming they're invested in a 7% mutual fund (used to be 10% but that's a different issue).

I guess the next step would be to project that ahead to 2022 and to start my SS "withdrawals" to see how long it takes to withdraw the money I've put in. But presumably we'd also have to adjust the two numbers to equivalent-year dollars.

You'd need a big envelope...
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 07:28 AM   #28
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Re: retirement trends

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It's the oldest principle known to man-"Thall shalt not be a dumb-ass."
Just to get this absolutely straight: You (and Galt and xprinter and Helen and ...) believe it's wrong to commit robbery. You condemn it. However, when a person is robbed, they then have your blanket permission to rob others.

What are your addresses? I'll send some robbery victims over. Be sure to let them help themselves to anything they like. Your principles could hardly have you do otherwise.

Of course, I may have misunderstood y'all's principles. Mebbe they're more along the lines of "What's mine is mine and some of what's yours is mine too." That's especially ironic for a group with a member who claims the name John Galt.
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 07:44 AM   #29
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Re: retirement trends

nfs, I would love to rehash this but I have to run.
There is an explanation, even though you don't see it.
Do not despair though. This issue will pop up again
as sure as my name is John Galt

JG
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 08:09 AM   #30
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Re: retirement trends

If SSA did not exist, I'm sure that there would be a number of people on this forum that could have done very well investing that portion of their salary but I know I would not have been one. IMO, they would be in the minority. The majority of working people would probably spend (as they do now) most of their paycheck including the non existing FICA portion, and without SS, not only would they (we) be working literally the rest of their lives but probably below the poverty level.

Then there is also the matching employer's contribution. How many companies would have "gladly" passed on those their saved portion to their employees. Yes, a few of us especially in the technology sector who are more agressive in negotiating salary increases (I being one), could have gotten higher salaries but I doubt the the average employee would have been so fortunate.

Without SS, I would have envision a bleaker future for many older Americans unless they had devoted children who had saved a nice nest egg for their own retirement like us. Those children could then take care of their aging parents which would have depleted their retirement savings unless they were frugal enough to save extra just in case... If they didn't, the cycle could start all over again.

There's nothing wrong with the above if you don't mind dealing with a deep separation of the classes between 300 million people. I guess those of us who "have" would definitely need lots o guns to protect ourselves against the "have nots".

Bleak, but that's how I see it.

MJ
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 10:47 AM   #31
 
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Re: retirement trends

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What do you mean by this? If we have all contributed to this program why should we not take our money if we are conservatives. If on the other hand we could have opted out of this ponzi scheme in the first place most of us would have. If only we had a choice. Our wonderful government forces (with high taxation) us to rely on their programs.
Jeff

Hey xprinter, I don't knock anyone for collecting their fair share from SS or medicare. I find it interesting that many conservatives are afraid to show their true colors and advocate cancelation of these programs. Heck, I'm a liberal, and I don't see any reason for the government to force retirement savings on me. Bush's privatization scheme will only make matters worse by increasing the complexity and cost. So much for smaller government.
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 03:59 PM   #32
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Re: retirement trends

I am a conservative though not as "neo-con" as some
like to paint me. Nobody I know, of like persuasion,
wants to abolish SS .... that is just a left wing
propaganda scare tactic. Hell, SS is paying about
40% of my retirement expenses. What I want to
do is make sure my grandkids get a fair shake.
Neither party has the courage to do the right thing,
and there is plenty of blame to share all around.
What we need to do is reject the extremes of both
sides and find a middle ground, before it is too late.

Read "The Coming Generational Storm", but I warn
you that it is not for the faint of heart.

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 04:14 PM   #33
 
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Re: retirement trends

I'm glad you don't want to abolish Social Security for yourself. Please help us save it for other generations that need it for 40% of their income also.

Maybe this is why 'W' plans have only a 37% approval plan this week. When further details come out, it will be even be less.

Private Accounts do nothing to save Social Security, it only makes the problem worse. You don't have to be a math major to figure this out. This is all about ideology to Bush, Saving Social Security is just Political Rhetoric. He dreams of eliminating it!

Saving Social Security will come about by tweaking it. Gradually raising the retirement age, Lifting the cap. But in order to get both parties support the Private Accounts feature has got to come off the table. Everyone is free to do their own private accounts.
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 04:38 PM   #34
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Re: retirement trends

Well C-T, I am not sure "W" dreams of eliminating SS.
I prefer to think he is just confused. Anyway, I do agree
that private accounts as presented is dumb, dumb, dumb. OTOH, I expect mischief and nonsense to spew forth from Washington. My expectations almost
always come to fruition.

JG
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 05:07 PM   #35
 
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Re: retirement trends

Conservatives claim to support Social Security and Medicare because they are extremely popular. It's a political battle they know they would lose. If you really believed that these programs are good government policy, you'd advocate expanding Medicare to insure everyone. But 'conservatives' fight a single payer national health care system to the bitter end. Just like SS and Medicare, such a system would be very popular and difficult to cut once enacted.
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 06:04 PM   #36
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Re: retirement trends

JohnBlake, I am all for the disadvantaged having a
health care safety net .... just so long as it is done
within the context of a free enterprise system. The
right to choose your own Dr (within limits) was the
critical issue in the last great debate on this subject.
If you can show me a national health plan that
doesn't "kill the goose" and lets me pick my doctors,
and doesn't ration the latest technology, then I
would evaluate it with care. How's that for "fair
and balanced?"

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 06:38 PM   #37
 
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Re: retirement trends

I knew you're a softie ;-)
The system you describes already exists, it's called Medicare. I don't advocate a public system that covers extreme and expensive procedures, there has to be a limit. If you don't like the limit, you're free to suppliment with private insurance. That's right, a two tiered system! Medicare offers more choice than my private insurance. I can't get coverage outside of my home state without hassles. If I move to another state, I need to find another policies. Maybe you are a liberal at heart!
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 07:07 PM   #38
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Re: retirement trends

I don't have any problem with Medicare .... been
using it for 5 years with my company provided
insurance as secondary. Don't know anybody in
my age group who would give it up, Democrat or
Republican. How does that make me a liberal?
I was responding to your single payer national
health care plan comment to mean something
like Hillary's approach, or how they do it in Canada
or Britain.

BTW, at the risk of loosing my neo-con image,
you would be surprised at how many social issues
I am moderately gooey on.

Cheers,

Charlie
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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 07:29 PM   #39
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Re: retirement trends

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The system you describes already exists, it's called Medicare. * *I don't advocate a public system that covers extreme and expensive procedures, there has to be a limit. *If you don't like the limit, you're free to suppliment with private insurance. *That's right, a two tiered system!
John, your point about limits is very important. Americans don't do limits. My state just passed an very expensive mandate that "mental illness" be covered in the same limitless way that physical treatments are covered. Bad idea! Not long ago, they made acupuncture and various other alternative therapies mandated also. A monument to the lobbying efforts of these practitioners.

I happen to use acupuncture, and think a good practitioner is a very valuable person to know. But I can pay for that. Since insurance hasn't been much involved, acupuncture is still reasonably priced.

What I want my health insurance to do is take care of me if I am really banged up, have a serious heart attack or stroke, kidney disease, etc. If I am feeling depressed, I can find my own way with or without help. If I want help, I will be happy to pay for myself.

What I want, and what most want I believe, would really not cost all that much. I think if some couple wants to wait until they are 40 until she tries to have a baby, that's cool. But if they appear to be infertile, the infertility treatments are on their dime, not on the standard insurance system, whether public or private. I heard on the radio tonight about some old man with terminal cancer and heart disease who was getting a coronary artery bypass. Why?

It's amazing how over-rated medical care is in any case. If you look at life expectancy once a person has achieved 40 years of age, it is is astounding how little spread there is around the world. And what spread there is overstates the contribution of medical care. Much of it is from window screens, toilets that flush properly, good highways and other transportation infrastructure, reasonable environmental toxin controls, good building codes. Other big contributors are high rates of literacy, low HIV prevalence, etc, etc.

In America we get not enough of what is really needed, and way to much of whatever is good for the corporate-government oligarchs.

Mikey



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Re: retirement trends
Old 03-14-2005, 08:31 PM   #40
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Re: retirement trends

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If I am feeling depressed, I can find my own way with or without help. If I want help, I will be happy to pay for myself.
Mikey, If you're feeling depressed, you'll probably be unhappy to pay.

MJ
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