Should you retire overseas

[Sojourning]

Daylate, you seem to be talking about the financial aspects of living in the EU. I am talking about being able to legally live there. There is no point even considering it if you cannot legally live there. That's why I asked if either of you have a passport from an EU country which would give you the right to live there.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/deborahljacobs/2012/11/21/plan-before-you-travel-without-a-visa-you-might-need-to-stay-home/

So far you haven't given any indication daylate that you have researched whether there is any way you can legally live in any EU country. That is step one, not whether you can afford to live there. I can assure you that a couple can live in an EU country for $20k a year in many places.

Sunset, usually commenting on the negative aspects of a country gets people from that country upset and results in starting an argument. There are plenty of articles you can find using Google to get a feel for some of the problems with UK culture.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2409433/Poor-white-children-fall-Benefits-culture-blamed-failures-school.html
Or Read some articles here:
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=UInbVOPDFYrZqAP66oDADg&gws_rd=ssl#q= britains+underclass

I was born in the UK. I emmigrated to Canada with my parents when I was 7 and grew up in Canada. I visited the UK quite a few times over the years and always enjoyed my visits. But being a tourist is not the same as living in a country. In 1999 I ended up living in the UK and stayed for 6.5 years. I'm really a Canadian in terms of my viewpoints and cultural norms. It's like when you join a new company and you can see things as a 'newbie' that those who have been there for years accept as normal and cannot even see. A kind of 'helicopter vision'.

There are so many differences in what is accepted as 'normal' in the UK that would not be acceptable in Canada, that I would need to write a book to cover them all.

Chuckanut, longer term 'visits' as you say are an alternative. Often however, what stops people from considering that is money. As flyingaway wrote, "One has to sell the U.S. home or rent it out in order to make this slow travel financially affordable for many early retirees, I guess."

If you can afford to maintain your 'home base' and 'sojourn' in a place for 3 months or more, it is definitely a good alternative to moving to another country. Kind of a have your cake and eat it too proposition.

[nuisance]

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingaway One has to sell the U.S. home or rent it out in order to make this slow travel financially affordable for many early retirees, I guess.

It all depends on circumstances. I'm talking of just going for 3 months and then coming back, so selling doesn't make sense. Renting would be great, but finding somebody I'd be comfortable renting my home to while I'm out of the country seems challenging.

DW and I can have a good time in a cheap country for $100/day. Add to that health insurance and plane tickets. Call it $12k for 3 months of travel. The question is: do we spend $12k in costs not related to keeping the house in 3 months while living here? I'm not exactly sure what the answer will be. It might be worth it. If we can rent the house for some time, it's more likely to be worth it.

[Alan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunset I’ve certainly thought about retiring abroad, but this thread is making me think of lots of other choices like just taking long vacations instead. I'm wondering could you elaborate on the negative aspects of the culture in the UK that you have mentioned ?

I listened to a recent podcast of Invisibility called "categories" and one section in the 2nd half of the program pretty much summarized our situation.

Even though we have now lived nearly half of our lives in the USA, we have developed a very strong pull to move back to the UK since just before we retired. This is very natural and happens to many folks once they get older, this desire to be back in the familiar surrounds of where they grew up, and it is quite independent of weather, finances, language, race etc.

Living in another country, even one that speaks the same language, is always going to be a culture different to what you grew up with. Eventually you may end up simply being tired of always having to explain yourself (I still fail miserably at a drive through after living in the US for 28 years, and after one spoken word people know I'm not from around here).

We have had a great life in the USA, raised 2 children here, have been really welcomed everywhere we've lived and worked (in Louisiana and Texas). But we still don't feel like we fit in.

Over the last 5 years we have spent weeks or months at a time in other parts of the USA, Canada, Ireland, Australia, France and England. (escaping the Texas summers).

We are luckier than most because we have been able to afford these experiences and starting 2016 we plan to set up a permanent place in England (North Yorkshire) and split our time between there and here.

[Meadbh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Living in another country, even one that speaks the same language, is always going to be a culture different to what you grew up with. Eventually you may end up simply being tired of always having to explain yourself (I still fail miserably at a drive through after living in the US for 28 years, and after one spoken word people know I'm not from around here). We have had a great life in the USA, raised 2 children here, have been really welcomed everywhere we've lived and worked (in Louisiana and Texas). But we still don't feel like we fit in.

It's bittersweet, I guess. Migrants like us all have an inner turmoil about where "home" is. I wonder if fitting in is easier for a single person, or for a couple where one person is a "local"? Or maybe the U.S. and Canada are different. Because I honestly feel I fit in here. Heck, I even go to hockey games!

[Focus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojourning If you can afford to maintain your 'home base' and 'sojourn' in a place for 3 months or more, it is definitely a good alternative to moving to another country. Kind of a have your cake and eat it too proposition.

There's also the "home free" concept that caught on with the media last year. But I thought the book that triggered that coverage was rather worthless. Here's the thread: http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...get-73496.html.

[Alan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadbh It's bittersweet, I guess. Migrants like us all have an inner turmoil about where "home" is. I wonder if fitting in is easier for a single person, or for a couple where one person is a "local"? Or maybe the U.S. and Canada are different. Because I honestly feel I fit in here. Heck, I even go to hockey games!

It is very strange indeed. Our children were only 4 and 6 when we moved over so we have gone through all the usual stuff families do through school and college activities. When our daughter graduated High School she was the one chosen to sing the National Anthem for which we were all very proud. I used to go to baseball and football games, and while working I kept up with the teams, which were often discussed lunchtimes at work. I have a brother, a cousin and an aunt who live in different parts of Australia, and they couldn't imagine moving back either.

We thought we were just an oddity but the article on the podcast was interesting in that it used an example of a retired guy from India who really felt a yearning to be back in his home country, but had concerns over the health issues and the cost of traveling to keep in touch with his children and other relatives back in the USA. In the end he decided to invest and build a retirement community, open to anyone, but set up so it felt like India - Bollywood movies, street markets, all the sounds and smells to simulate an Indian community. This is in Florida and it opened bang in the middle of the recession. However, Indian retirees flocked to the place and he has since made 2 large expansions.

[Sojourning]

Couple of things about Immigrants. One, it depends on the age at which you immigrated. I did it at age 7 as I have said. At that time 1953, a lot of people were immigrating to Canada (and the USA) from Europe in search of a better life. Consequently, I went to school and grew up with a very diverse set of friends from many different backgrounds and nationalities. I think that was a very good thing.

I also noticed over time that if someone had came after they were only about age 12-14, they never truly lost their 'accent'. I have a 100% Canadian accent and vocabulary. No one ever thinks I am from somewhere else as they do you Alan.

My wife has only been here 8 years and is obviously not a Canadian. However, she took to Canada like a duck to water. She sees it is a better place to live than the UK and even says she would not return if I died before her and she was left here alone. She simply sees life here as better than in the UK. Who knows why one individual sees things one way and other in what is basically the total opposite way.

I seem to be one of the 'home is where you hang your hat' type. I've lived in various countries for varying periods of time and have never really felt unhappy in any of them. If I hadn't got together with my wife, I'd probably still be sitting in Greece saying, 'I haven't decided to leave yet.' Home is a very hard word to define. Is it where you were born? Where you grew up? Where you live now?

[daylatedollarshort]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojourning So far you haven't given any indication daylate that you have researched whether there is any way you can legally live in any EU country. That is step one, not whether you can afford to live there. I can assure you that a couple can live in an EU country for $20k a year in many places.

I was trying to find, apparently unsuccessfully, a vague, yet polite way to respond to questions that maybe were a bit patronizing.

[FIREd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan I listened to a recent podcast of Invisibility called "categories" and one section in the 2nd half of the program pretty much summarized our situation. Even though we have now lived nearly half of our lives in the USA, we have developed a very strong pull to move back to the UK since just before we retired. This is very natural and happens to many folks once they get older, this desire to be back in the familiar surrounds of where they grew up, and it is quite independent of weather, finances, language, race etc. Living in another country, even one that speaks the same language, is always going to be a culture different to what you grew up with. Eventually you may end up simply being tired of always having to explain yourself (I still fail miserably at a drive through after living in the US for 28 years, and after one spoken word people know I'm not from around here). We have had a great life in the USA, raised 2 children here, have been really welcomed everywhere we've lived and worked (in Louisiana and Texas). But we still don't feel like we fit in. Over the last 5 years we have spent weeks or months at a time in other parts of the USA, Canada, Ireland, Australia, France and England. (escaping the Texas summers). We are luckier than most because we have been able to afford these experiences and starting 2016 we plan to set up a permanent place in England (North Yorkshire) and split our time between there and here.

I can completely relate. I have spent nearly half of my life in the US and I feel at home here. Yet, the old country still tugs at my heartstrings, more so with each passing year it seems. That's why I am planning to spend more time there in the future. We are currently working hard on the logistics to make this happen (selling our house, selling one of our cars, etc...).

[MichaelB]

I lived and worked among many immigrants from Western Europe (mostly Spain, Italy and Portugal) and Latin America. They all had plans to work and accumulate, then retire and move back to their "home country".

The reality is that most of the people that did return did so while still working, and few of the retirees left. Among both groups, quite a few returned to their new "adopted country", finding it difficult to re-integrate into their country of birth after so many years absent.

[Alan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREd I can completely relate. I have spent nearly half of my life in the US and I feel at home here. Yet, the old country still tugs at my heartstrings, more so with each passing year it seems. That's why I am planning to spend more time there in the future. We are currently working hard on the logistics to make this happen (selling our house, selling one of our cars, etc...).

I hope you manage to organize things to spend more time over there. A few weeks each summer may be all that is needed to scratch that itch.

[Aus_E_Expat]

An interesting side comment.

For those of us who consider ourselves "American" or "Australian" or "Canadian" we are almost certainly the descendants of immigrants. My family all came from England and Scotland what was then colonial Australia almost 200 years ago.

For them, there was basically not chance of ever returning to their home country. Once they made their choice (assuming it was their choice and they were not transported convicts) there was no going back, never seeing family again, never seeing their home country again.

I am on a flight back to Australia again today - I do it every month. It was impossible even 50 years ago to travel so frequently.

Just a side comment

[DFA]

Sojourning, overseas plan for Ireland.

We are looking into living in Ireland for a year or longer as a base for EU travel. I have researched the ability to stay in Ireland for greater than 90 days, you just need to register with the local Gada or immigration office once in country and request “Permission to Remain” (Stamp number 3) this has to be renewed each year and a fee paid. As a retiree, you need to show income to support yourself and medical insurance so as not to become a burden the state these are covered our income and savings and by DW’s insurance and that insurance can be used in Ireland.

Since we both were/are military and have done a lot of traveling (me being aircrew and DW aircraft maintenance) and have been stationed overseas from several months to several years all over the world we are pretty comfortable with other places to live and visit. Since being in the military also helped us live on a lot less and to be very flexible to local foods and traveling on the cheap. We don’t spend money on living large and have no expectations of changing that.

Driving on the other side of the car and the other side of the road is no problem since I have done that before and on our trips to Ireland we always do the self-drive touring and B&B stays. I will have to do a local driving test to get an Irish license, I don’t see a problem with that since I have driven in Okinawa, UK, and Ireland and have had no issues with the rules of the road in any of those places.

Big thing we have to plan is the immigration of our two dogs into Ireland. They have to be chipped; rabies shots and worm treated and test within 5 days of the trip. The trip to bring them into Ireland would normally be by plane in cargo, but DW will not let them travel in cargo. So we are planning a trip by the QE2 to UK (pets allowed on board) and then into Ireland. I have the paper work for “Pet Passport Scheme” as required to get them into UK, once in the UK they are cleared to travel to Ireland.

We plan to rent to avoid getting stuck with a house if we want to move back to the US or go to some other place in the EU. We have looked into areas we like and determine the southern coastal area is best for us and our plans.

Our budget is planned for a 15% over our current spending in our current location. Based on our past spending experience in Ireland and several websites on costs of living in Ireland this seems to be a good plan, but can be modified as needed. Currency exchange rate is considered in plan too.

I have read the tax agreements between Ireland and the US and found out the following:

1. Resident for tax purposes is 183 days in a calendar year or 280 days over two years period
2. Our military and FERS pensions are taxed by the US
3. Our SS is taxed by Ireland; we will elect not to have income taxes withheld from SS by the US or may defer collecting SS until later to reduce Ireland taxes.
4. Our Capital gains and dividends are taxed by Ireland if we have any, may convert taxable assets to cash before going to Ireland to avoid Capital gains and dividends and just live off pensions, SS and cash as needed.
5. We will need to file both US and Ireland taxes forms.

I have read many of the stories about Ireland on the economy and the weather, we have been there several times in the off season (Oct – Nov) and don’t mind the weather and we normally try to do the “living as a local” when traveling; shopping in the local stores for food and stuff and preparing our own meals.

As for family and friends, parents and grandparents are all dead, and most aunts and uncles are too. This leaves siblings, we really don’t interact with them on a daily basis and I see my sisters once every couple of years and DW see her family more frequently, but that too is once or twice a year even though we live within minutes of them. We have no kids to worry about and very few close friends that we do things with. We pretty much love each other’s company and doing things together all the time. We have also spent a lot of our time in Ireland interacting with the Irish people we have met and found them to be great people that are passionate about their country. One thing I have found is that the Irish people don’t have a problem with US people stay in Ireland as long as you are not there to take their jobs.

Our reason for the move is primarily to do EU travel without having to pay thousands of dollars for airfare and spending many hour on planes; I compared a trip from our current home to Italy and airfare was $4,000 and 17 hours on a plane. From Ireland the same trip was 3 hours and less than $1,000 for airfare, we could also drive, use the ferries and rail lines.

Am I missing anything, feel free to comment.

[LARS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFA Our reason for the move is primarily to do EU travel without having to pay thousands of dollars for airfare and spending many hour on planes; I compared a trip from our current home to Italy and airfare was $4,000 and 17 hours on a plane. From Ireland the same trip was 3 hours and less than $1,000 for airfare, we could also drive, use the ferries and rail lines. Am I missing anything, feel free to comment.

Unless it is necessary to give up your home in the US to achieve your plan, why not keep your "visits" to IRE to under 183 days (or 140 days per if two years) and return to states. So basically 4 1/2 months per year. That would significantly cut down on "airfare" and avoid all the hassles of taxes (and maybe healthcare as well)?

[DFA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LARS Unless it is necessary to give up your home in the US to achieve your plan, why not keep your "visits" to IRE to under 183 days (or 140 days per if two years) and return to states. So basically 4 1/2 months per year. That would significantly cut down on "airfare" and avoid all the hassles of taxes (and maybe healthcare as well)?

I is not necessary to give up house in US, but we were going to downsize anyways since this house is just to big. The other reason is traveling with pets is difficult if they are not on the EU pet passport system and leaving them with someone for 4.5 months just doesn't work for us. Healthcare is no problem and I have found expat tax specialist in Ireland that do the US and Irish taxes for a reasonable fee. Just trying to avoid the airfares and time spent get to and from the EU countries.

[Sojourning]

DFA, I would not pay any taxes in Ireland. In the scenario you describe and the reason for it (travel in Europe), I would think in terms of being a tourist, not living in Ireland. You are planning a sojourn, not a move to Ireland. You intend to return to the USA.

I would pay all necessary taxes in the USA and use ATMs to withdraw money in Ireland and the rest of Europe. Do not become resident. If your goal is to travel in Europe, then spend less than 90 days in Ireland, 90 days in mainland Europe, 90 days in Ireland, 90 days in mainland Europe. Your year is up and you never needed a visa for anywhere. Nor were you subject to taxes anywhere other than back home.

Ireland is not a member of Schengen. Therefore, time spent there does not count against the 90 in 180 calendar day Schengen rule that is likely to apply to most of the other countries you want to visit in Europe. By moving back and forth, you avoid being in Ireland more than 183 days in a calendar year and also avoid overstaying the Schengen rule of 90 in 180 calendar days. What's more, if you rent for 90 days somewhere else in Europe it will cost you less than the same 90 days in Ireland where the cost of living is higher. I would use the Schengen rule and Ireland's 183 day rules to my advantage.

The only time I would get into paying taxes in Ireland would be if I really wanted to spend at least 10 months out of a year there. Even then, the disadvantages would make me think twice. You haven't indicated any such reason.

As for, "Our reason for the move is primarily to do EU travel without having to pay thousands of dollars for airfare and spending many hour on planes;", if that is indeed your PRIMARY reason, I'd be looking at staying in the southeast of England and going to/from the mainland by ferry from Dover. Closer, cheaper cost of living and cheaper transport to mainland. So really, the question is why Ireland? I would not say your plan is the best answer to your stated goal of, "as a base for EU travel."

Why not 3 months in the south of France or on a Greek island for example. Renting by the month is always going to be cheaper than renting by the night or week as a typical tourist would do but renting for 2 or 3 months will not cost more per month than renting for a year.

By the way, you do not need to get an Irish driving license if you are only there for a year. All you need is an IDP. You can drive for up to a year in Ireland on your US license. https://www.ndls.ie/holders-of-forei...ther-countries

So what do you want to do DFA, spend a year in Ireland or spend a year in Europe?

[LARS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DFA I is not necessary to give up house in US, but we were going to downsize anyways since this house is just to big. The other reason is traveling with pets is difficult if they are not on the EU pet passport system and leaving them with someone for 4.5 months just doesn't work for us. Healthcare is no problem and I have found expat tax specialist in Ireland that do the US and Irish taxes for a reasonable fee. Just trying to avoid the airfares and time spent get to and from the EU countries.

The dog issue is a big one, which I overlooked... (and I fully understand being a huge dog person).

[Accidental Retiree]

Sojourning, how does all this work with their desire to travel with their dogs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojourning DFA, I would not pay any taxes in Ireland. In the scenario you describe and the reason for it (travel in Europe), I would think in terms of being a tourist, not living in Ireland. You are planning a sojourn, not a move to Ireland. You intend to return to the USA. I would pay all necessary taxes in the USA and use ATMs to withdraw money in Ireland and the rest of Europe. Do not become resident. If your goal is to travel in Europe, then spend less than 90 days in Ireland, 90 days in mainland Europe, 90 days in Ireland, 90 days in mainland Europe. Your year is up and you never needed a visa for anywhere. Nor were you subject to taxes anywhere other than back home. Ireland is not a member of Schengen. Therefore, time spent there does not count against the 90 in 180 calendar day Schengen rule that is likely to apply to most of the other countries you want to visit in Europe. By moving back and forth, you avoid being in Ireland more than 183 days in a calendar year and also avoid overstaying the Schengen rule of 90 in 180 calendar days. What's more, if you rent for 90 days somewhere else in Europe it will cost you less than the same 90 days in Ireland where the cost of living is higher. I would use the Schengen rule and Ireland's 183 day rules to my advantage. The only time I would get into paying taxes in Ireland would be if I really wanted to spend at least 10 months out of a year there. Even then, the disadvantages would make me think twice. You haven't indicated any such reason. As for, "Our reason for the move is primarily to do EU travel without having to pay thousands of dollars for airfare and spending many hour on planes;", if that is indeed your PRIMARY reason, I'd be looking at staying in the southeast of England and going to/from the mainland by ferry from Dover. Closer, cheaper cost of living and cheaper transport to mainland. So really, the question is why Ireland? I would not say your plan is the best answer to your stated goal of, "as a base for EU travel." Why not 3 months in the south of France or on a Greek island for example. Renting by the month is always going to be cheaper than renting by the night or week as a typical tourist would do but renting for 2 or 3 months will not cost more per month than renting for a year. By the way, you do not need to get an Irish driving license if you are only there for a year. All you need is an IDP. You can drive for up to a year in Ireland on your US license. https://www.ndls.ie/holders-of-forei...ther-countries So what do you want to do DFA, spend a year in Ireland or spend a year in Europe?

[Sojourning]

Accidental, the OP has already got that covered. "I have the paper work for “Pet Passport Scheme” as required to get them into UK, once in the UK they are cleared to travel to Ireland."

Once they have the pet passport they can go to and from wherever they want. There is plenty of info on it if you Google say, 'pet passport UK experience.' You will get links like this one describing actual travel with dogs.
Dog Travel Blog and Pet Passport site

[DFA]

Sojourning, our plan is to live in Ireland long term, we planned for a year since most rental leases are a yearlong and we may not like the area we pick after a year, we may decide to move to another area in Ireland after that or if we like it stay put.

We may also decide to move to the European mainland if we find some place we like better than Ireland.

Just like you said “I just haven’t decided to leave yet” (it would be We for us)

Our plan is to do two or three trips a year to the European mainland for a couple of weeks, but base out of Ireland.

The only reason to come back to the US would be short visits with family every so often, not really a tightknit family. No other reason to come back to the US, been there done that.

LARS, dogs are huge with us too.