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Old 12-21-2008, 02:28 PM   #41
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One thing I haven't been able to get straight- if what you are after is a date, some fun, maybe an interesting evening, what is wrong with married men/women? One thing you know about a married person is that they are bearable to at least one person. Especially for people like some here who are very protective of their autonomy and privacy, nothing quite like a married lover to respect that!

Ha
One potential problem: spouse does not know they are straying, finds out, and seeks revenge on the person that 'stole/enticed/corrupted' straying spouse.
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Old 12-21-2008, 05:52 PM   #42
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One thing I haven't been able to get straight- if what you are after is a date, some fun, maybe an interesting evening, what is wrong with married men/women? One thing you know about a married person is that they are bearable to at least one person. Especially for people like some here who are very protective of their autonomy and privacy, nothing quite like a married lover to respect that!
Theoretically nothing as long as there is full disclosure, no secrets and acceptance from all involved.

I doubt that's often the case, at least with respect to dating sites. In general, when no one is hiding anything, sometimes it is nice for one married person to occasionally hang out with a married person of the opposite sex as long as everyone is clear that there's no hanky-panky going on, it's strictly friendship and that it's not being hidden from spouses. At least the faithful married ones are, well, "safe" in terms of not being expected to eventually put out.
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Old 12-21-2008, 05:56 PM   #43
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Old 12-21-2008, 06:33 PM   #44
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Theoretically nothing as long as there is full disclosure, no secrets and acceptance from all involved.
I agree. I know what divorce feels like, and in America having an affair is an invitation to divorce. If I liked a woman I wouldn't want to put her in jeopardy. And it may be sexist, but I also wouldn't want to steal from the husband.

And if I were tempted, I would give some real thought to the hazard mentioned by Kahn. I'm not very brave, that would do it for me.

ha
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:25 PM   #45
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One potential problem: spouse does not know they are straying, finds out, and seeks revenge on the person that 'stole/enticed/corrupted' straying spouse.
The brother of a friend of mine had that very experience and reaction. He found out his wife was having an affair, and shortly after that he walked in on the 2 of them in bed in her lover's house. He pulled out a 9mm and emptied the clip into her lover's head. It abruptly ended the affair....as well as his own freedom. He was sent to prison for home invasion & homicide, but has since been released.....both from prison and his marriage!

And he always seemed to be such a nice, well-balanced, level-headed kind of guy....an upstanding citizen in the community, and an outstanding law enforcement officer. I guess he just snapped that night. They said after he took care of his business, he laid the weapon on the counter, phoned the local PD, identified himself, told them what he had done, and asked them to send a squad to that location. He also had made certain that his wife was out of the way before he opened fire, because he didn't want her to get hurt. He was rational and irrational at the same time. He pleaded guilty, refused 'deals' offered by the DA, and saved everyone a long, drawn out trial. He accepted & served his sentence without any arguments or appeals.

I guess the moral of the story is, if he ever remarries.....steer clear of his ol' lady!!!
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:55 PM   #46
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One thing I haven't been able to get straight- if what you are after is a date, some fun, maybe an interesting evening, what is wrong with married men/women?
(Nobody is going to like my answer to your question, but I am sick and in a foul mood so here goes.)

In my own personal ethical framework, there is such a thing as right and wrong - - and to me this is wrong. Marriage promises are a commitment that is not released until the marriage is ended. Those promises go beyond the physical act. I was strong enough to stick to my marriage promises until that marriage was dissolved, and I would not want to date a man who couldn't. I deserve someone who views commitment in the same ways I do.

So, I would not date a married man because a married man who would date me, is not a good match for me. I also would not date a married man because it would be an extreme unkindness towards his wife who has done nothing to me. I am not the kind of person to do such a thing.

All this is pretty theoretical in my case, since Frank and I have been commited to one another for a number of years. I would no more date someone else, than fly. But when I was "dating around", the above applied.
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:29 AM   #47
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(Nobody is going to like my answer to your question, but I am sick and in a foul mood so here goes.)

In my own personal ethical framework, there is such a thing as right and wrong - - and to me this is wrong. Marriage promises are a commitment that is not released until the marriage is ended. Those promises go beyond the physical act. I was strong enough to stick to my marriage promises until that marriage was dissolved, and I would not want to date a man who couldn't. I deserve someone who views commitment in the same ways I do.

So, I would not date a married man because a married man who would date me, is not a good match for me. I also would not date a married man because it would be an extreme unkindness towards his wife who has done nothing to me. I am not the kind of person to do such a thing.
As I said above,


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I agree. I know what divorce feels like, and in America having an affair is an invitation to divorce. If I liked a woman I wouldn't want to put her in jeopardy. And it may be sexist, but I also wouldn't want to steal from the husband.

And if I were tempted, I would give some real thought to the hazard mentioned by Kahn. I'm not very brave, that would do it for me.

ha
I know at least 2 couples who stay married because they cannot make it alone financially, but they lead separate lives while living in the same house. This really makes the situation different, but I think it would still seem weird to me. Although I do not see it as right or wrong, more like comfortable vs. uncomfortable.

Ha
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:38 AM   #48
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In my own personal ethical framework, there is such a thing as right and wrong - - and to me this is wrong. Marriage promises are a commitment that is not released until the marriage is ended. Those promises go beyond the physical act. I was strong enough to stick to my marriage promises until that marriage was dissolved, and I would not want to date a man who couldn't. I deserve someone who views commitment in the same ways I do.
I think at least some of the question is what is meant by "date." As we usually use it, that word has at least potentially romantic/sexual connotations, and by that yardstick it is indeed a bit more distasteful for the masses.

But if you merely mean someone to hang out with -- a "safe" confidante of the opposite sex -- in a platonic sense, I don't necessarily see anything wrong as long as (a) everyone understands that fact (no misrepresentation) and your spouse/steady SO knows and accepts it (no secrets/lies). In which case, you'd be on a "date" (in quotation marks) and not on a real date -- and even then only in a playful/joking sense.

I guess I don't really think of occasional social engagement with the opposite sex as a "date" -- to me that word is loaded with assumptions and "baggage" about future expectations that aren't appropriate for most people in a committed relationship.

In that sense, my wife and I have both occasionally done things like go out to lunch with or see a movie with a friend of the opposite sex. But in both cases there were no secrets and it was very clear to all that there was nothing to it in terms of ulterior motives -- so there was no problem. I guess for the reasons above, most people wouldn't call that a "date," though.
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:08 AM   #49
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(Nobody is going to like my answer to your question, but I am sick and in a foul mood so here goes.)
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I know at least 2 couples who stay married because they cannot make it alone financially, but they lead separate lives while living in the same house.
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Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
I think at least some of the question is what is meant by "date."
See? I knew nobody would like my answer, though you two are very polite about it.

To me, there are no ifs, ands, or buts. Marriage is marriage, and we all know in our hearts what is and isn't consistent with our commitments. To me, there is no gray area. If there is even the slightest doubt, then it isn't. Moreover, it's a commendable practice to err on the side of caution and avoid "almost violating commitments" by doing anything that is even remotely borderline, because it's a slip-slidey road.

Continuing a marriage for financial reasons shows a lack of respect for marital vows, and I would never respect someone who did that. Part of the implicit marital vows are that your partner is also your best friend and confidante. Putting someone else in that role is as bad as engaging in wild, abandoned sex with that person, in my opinion. True, while married and in college I had "study buddies", but I made sure we never met except in groups and discussions did not really go beyond engineering problems. As long as I was married, I really wanted to be married. My Aggie study buddies were honorable men and assumed that was the way I would want things to be, too. I didn't have to tell any of them how this should be.

I know - - I'm a hard woman! I'm also a divorced woman with a clear conscience.
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:12 AM   #50
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See? I knew nobody would like my answer, though you two are very polite about it.

To me, there are no ifs, ands, or buts. Marriage is marriage, and we all know in our hearts what is and isn't consistent with our commitments. To me, there is no gray area. If there is even the slightest doubt, then it isn't.
Just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, are you saying it's never appropriate for married people to socialize with someone of the opposite sex, at least if it's just the two of them and not in a general group setting -- even if there is no romantic interest whatsoever and everyone knows it? That's what it sounds like to me.

Sounds like something out of "When Harry Met Sally" -- where Harry claims men and women can't just be friends because the romantic pressures always get in the way...
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"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
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other possible solutions
Old 12-22-2008, 08:15 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by omni550 View Post

I'm struggling with what to do with myself in the evenings and weekends, as that's when my SO and I would be together.

I'm not really looking to go back to w*rk (and in today's economy, it would be very difficult to find a job around here in SE Michigan). At the same time, I think if I was w*rking it would 1) give me lots of mental distractions, 2) possibly widen my social circle with the new coworkers and 3) possibly connect me with some dating candidates.

I'm wondering what other single FIRE'd people do to keep themselves occupied, meet other singles, widen their social circles, expand their brains, keep from getting lonely, and the like.

omni
Omni-

Two ideas for fulfilling goals 1, 2, and 3 as mentioned above
without w*rking...

First is, if you don't already, consider going to church. Churches
sometimes get a bad rap, but with the tough economic times we're
in, churches now more than ever are flooded with requests for
all kinds of help, so there's good volunteer opportunities and good
social support to go with them.

Second idea is to get a cute, friendly dog. Anytime you would
otherwise be bored or lonely, take the dog out for a walk. (You're already
walking 3x a week anyway.) Dogs instantly breakdown any
conversation barriers, and you'll find it is extremely easy to meet
all kinds of people. Your social circle will quickly broaden.
My dog made more friends in a month than I'd made in years.

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Old 12-22-2008, 08:27 AM   #52
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Just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, are you saying it's never appropriate for married people to socialize with someone of the opposite sex, at least if it's just the two of them and not in a general group setting -- even if there is no romantic interest whatsoever and everyone knows it? That's what it sounds like to me.
I was adding to my above post while you were writing this. My ethical/moral viewpoints are pretty easy to follow and do not include any "ifs, ands, or buts". See the above post (especially the section copied below) for a clarification.

Quote:
Part of the implicit marital vows are that your partner is also your best friend and confidante. Putting someone else in that role is as bad as engaging in wild, abandoned sex with that person, in my opinion. True, while married and in college I had "study buddies", but I made sure we never met except in groups and discussions did not really go beyond engineering problems. As long as I was married, I really wanted to be married. My Aggie study buddies were honorable men and assumed that was the way I would want things to be, too. I didn't have to tell any of them how this should be.

I know - - I'm a hard woman! I'm also a divorced woman with a clear conscience.
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Old 12-22-2008, 09:24 AM   #53
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I enjoy close relationships outside of my marriage. To not do so, IMO would be a dismal life. Again, this is my opinion, YMMV.
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Old 12-22-2008, 09:49 AM   #54
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I enjoy close relationships outside of my marriage. To not do so, IMO would be a dismal life. Again, this is my opinion, YMMV.
I guess what Khan and others are debating are how "close" is defined, its in each one's perspective.

I have a couple female relationships, but they are platonic. DW knows of these women and approves. As a man, I find that sometimes women are easier to talk to than other men, they have a different perspective..........
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:09 AM   #55
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I guess what Khan and others are debating are how "close" is defined, its in each one's perspective.
Oh, thanks for clearing that up....I guess I was just having a "senior" moment...please disregard anything I say this a.m. (probably wouldn't be a bad idea to disregard most things I say)
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:13 AM   #56
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Oh, thanks for clearing that up....I guess I was just having a "senior" moment...please disregard anything I say this a.m. (probably wouldn't be a bad idea to disregard most things I say)
You're WAY TOO YOUNG for senior moments..........
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:24 AM   #57
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You're WAY TOO YOUNG for senior moments..........
A sophomore moment, maybe?
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:25 AM   #58
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A sophomore moment, maybe?
I don't have sophomore moments.

Sophomoric moments, on the other hand...
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:13 AM   #59
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Part of the implicit marital vows are that your partner is also your best friend and confidante.
I think IMPLICIT is the key word here.
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Old 12-22-2008, 11:33 AM   #60
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See? I knew nobody would like my answer, though you two are very polite about it.

To me, there are no ifs, ands, or buts. Marriage is marriage, and we all know in our hearts what is and isn't consistent with our commitments. To me, there is no gray area. If there is even the slightest doubt, then it isn't. Moreover, it's a commendable practice to err on the side of caution and avoid "almost violating commitments" by doing anything that is even remotely borderline, because it's a slip-slidey road.

Continuing a marriage for financial reasons shows a lack of respect for marital vows, and I would never respect someone who did that. Part of the implicit marital vows are that your partner is also your best friend and confidante. Putting someone else in that role is as bad as engaging in wild, abandoned sex with that person, in my opinion. True, while married and in college I had "study buddies", but I made sure we never met except in groups and discussions did not really go beyond engineering problems. As long as I was married, I really wanted to be married. My Aggie study buddies were honorable men and assumed that was the way I would want things to be, too. I didn't have to tell any of them how this should be.

I know - - I'm a hard woman! I'm also a divorced woman with a clear conscience.
Sometimes I wonder if that isn't too much to expect from one person.
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