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Old 05-11-2010, 07:34 AM   #61
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I admit that doing nothing useful because I am too lazy to do anything worthwhile, makes me feel like that I am a good-for-nothing kind of guy. And to top it all, I donīt want to change. Sometimes I think that my behaviour wonīt go without some sort of punishment. Laziness is my main capital sin. I truly envy those of you that are different than me on this issue.
according to my take on things, once you are financially independent, that is the time to focus on catering to "primal impulses" and "creative hungers", subject to not doing anything self destructive.

life is about pleasure, and work and wealth is about creating a platform to experience pleasure, maximizing your pleasure return over your lifetime.

Hedonism asks the question "how can I maximize my pleasure over the next 5 minutes".

The miser asks "how much can I deprive myself...so that I can leave a bucket of money for my spoiled children to further debase themselves after I am gone".

balance lies in the uninhibited pursuit of intelligent pleasure, and in spoiling children in ways that do not undermine their motivation and independence (ref. Die Broke)

very few "fortune founders" can make the switch from work and miserliness to a more balanced approach. The usual pattern is that the next generation recovers the lost sense of hedonism, however, they are often not taught discipline, and the genetic line returns to mediocrity once the capital is spent.

the exception are those family lines that learn the trick of multigenerational accomplishment, while not losing touch with the "intelligent", or sustainable pleasure principle..."green pleasure"

for those new to financial independence, and not quite comfortable with it, I would suggest a study of old money families....or even the Preppy Handbook, which sort of lays it all out, albeit tongue in cheek.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:57 AM   #62
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Kroeran,
I can not agree with your assesment of the purpose of life as to pursue pleasure or of human nature being driven by selfish motives. God put each of us here for a purpose (other than selfgratification). I'm sure you have seen great acts of kindness and generosity, right?
In your heart of hearts, you know there is more.
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:52 AM   #63
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Kroeran,
I can not agree with your assesment of the purpose of life as to pursue pleasure or of human nature being driven by selfish motives. God put each of us here for a purpose (other than selfgratification). I'm sure you have seen great acts of kindness and generosity, right?
In your heart of hearts, you know there is more.
but if you are doing kindness and generosity for others rather than for yourself, I would say you are not doing it right

and if you are not receiving pleasure from kindness and generosity, for sure you are not going it right

we are on the same page, its just a matter of terminology

my take is that empathetic behavior is an expansion of how you receive pleasure - it still the same selfish motive...but smart selfish
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:06 AM   #64
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With all due respect, I believe there is more to life than persuing our own pleasure. Sure we "feel good" when we do things for others and that is pleasurable. But the pleasure is a side benefit, not the goal. For example, sometimes we do things that feel bad because they are right, according to a higher standard. Not all motives or fulfillment are with respect to our own pleasure.
There are a few things that I would give my life for, because they are bigger than I am. There a a lot of books filled with good people making sacrificial acts for the sake of others, or freedom, or morality (the real kind).
I may have taken a deep dive on philosophy here, but you have to stand for something.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:15 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by vicente solano View Post
I admit that doing nothing useful because I am too lazy to do anything worthwhile, makes me feel like that I am a good-for-nothing kind of guy. And to top it all, I donīt want to change. Sometimes I think that my behaviour wonīt go without some sort of punishment. Laziness is my main capital sin. I truly envy those of you that are different than me on this issue.
you work, you are paying the rent...whats the problem?

who is to say which life is better than another

yet you hang out here

you say you don't want to change, yet you envy others here

would you like to dig into this a bit?
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Old 05-11-2010, 06:51 PM   #66
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If we lived in tribal societies, or even in frontier towns we would understand that family and group survival and propagation into the future is the purpose of life.

That is why humans have generally been quite willing to kill or even better, to annihilate humans that they consider "other".

Today some of us have extended the life mandate to include other groups, other cultures, and other nations. Some of us even go so far as to include non-human species, especially if they are cute or cuddly or justify jobs studying their habitat to be sure that a new building doesn't endanger the poor dears.

My guess is if the messy ever hits the fan. a lot of this will go away fast.

Ha
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:29 PM   #67
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If we lived in tribal societies, or even in frontier towns we would understand that family and group survival and propagation into the future is the purpose of life.

That is why humans have generally been quite willing to kill or even better, to annihilate humans that they consider "other".

Today some of us have extended the life mandate to include other groups, other cultures, and other nations. Some of us even go so far as to include non-human species, especially if they are cute or cuddly or justify jobs studying their habitat to be sure that a new building doesn't endanger the poor dears.

My guess is if the messy ever hits the fan. a lot of this will go away fast.

Ha
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:47 AM   #68
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If we lived in tribal societies, or even in frontier towns we would understand that family and group survival and propagation into the future is the purpose of life.

That is why humans have generally been quite willing to kill or even better, to annihilate humans that they consider "other".
Kind of reminds me of the current Stephen Hawking controversy (nothing new as it pops up every so often):

Scientists weigh in on Hawking's alien warning

Quote:
Blair Csuti, a biologist at Oregon State University, defended Hawking's trepidation, arguing that the principles of evolution would have shaped those beings just as they did life on Earth, selecting for self-preserving behavior. "Aliens visiting newly discovered planets, like Earth, would place their own interests above those of unsophisticated indigenous residents."
(If interested, the complete list of commentaries is found at Journal of Cosmology.)
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:39 AM   #69
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If we lived in tribal societies, or even in frontier towns we would understand that family and group survival and propagation into the future is the purpose of life.

That is why humans have generally been quite willing to kill or even better, to annihilate humans that they consider "other".

Today some of us have extended the life mandate to include other groups, other cultures, and other nations. Some of us even go so far as to include non-human species, especially if they are cute or cuddly or justify jobs studying their habitat to be sure that a new building doesn't endanger the poor dears.

My guess is if the messy ever hits the fan. a lot of this will go away fast.

Ha
a study of tribal societies (which includes biker/street gangs) can be a window into our own primal nature - my thinking is that one source of stress in life is deviating from this standard - so we go camping and form quasi tribes to replace what we have lost - my term for this is anthropological correctness (which in this instance, is a good thing)

to accumulate capital, we have to do a lot of non-athropological things, and stomp most of our primal urges - once we are independent - we need to return to feeding these hungers, carefully

your "other" comment points to the anthropological concept of "kin", and how our DNA views kin and non-kin. My problem is that anything that can be captured is viewed as kin in our household...so there is a lot of running around catching ants and releasing them to the wild.

yes, all this sensitivity goes away when you are mugged by reality -
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:45 AM   #70
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Kind of reminds me of the current Stephen Hawking controversy (nothing new as it pops up every so often):

Scientists weigh in on Hawking's alien warning



(If interested, the complete list of commentaries is found at Journal of Cosmology.)
yeah, if you are hosting the arrival of another species or race, you are likely the technologically inferior

my theory is that that happened long ago and we are all sort of one big dairy farm. They genetically engineered us to produce some sort of precious chemical in our excrement, and it is harvested through the municipal sanitation sewer system. ; - )

If you don't hear from me again, turns out my guess is correct, and they will come and dispose of me!

remember the movie "conspiracy theory"'
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:54 AM   #71
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With all due respect, I believe there is more to life than persuing our own pleasure. Sure we "feel good" when we do things for others and that is pleasurable. But the pleasure is a side benefit, not the goal. For example, sometimes we do things that feel bad because they are right, according to a higher standard. Not all motives or fulfillment are with respect to our own pleasure.
There are a few things that I would give my life for, because they are bigger than I am. There a a lot of books filled with good people making sacrificial acts for the sake of others, or freedom, or morality (the real kind).
I may have taken a deep dive on philosophy here, but you have to stand for something.
a person based in ego sees "sacrifice" in "selfless" action

a person who has shifted their perspective from ego to their higher (God) self sees so-called "selfless" action as intelligent, pleasurable on a deeper level, and actually selfish in the grand scheme of things

this comes out of accepting that somehow, either through evolution or some mysterious way, we are all connected somehow - so in decision making - we need to take this into account, which begins with working toward harmlessness, and ends with helping others as our highest pleasure

of course, what higher service could a man give than to give his life in service to another, and in a way, what higher pleasure could their be

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Old 05-12-2010, 08:06 AM   #72
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remember the movie "conspiracy theory"'
Okay, I failed to express myself properly yet again. What I meant to emphasis was the "principles of evolution would have shaped those beings just as they did life on Earth, selecting for self-preserving behavior" portion of the quote. That, to me, explains the "Us vs Them" mentality that Humans are saddled with. (BTW, in this context "They" = "Principles of Evolution.")

In any event, I am not by any stretch a conspiracy advocate nor concerned about intelligent visitors from other worlds... I don't rule out non-intelligent threats, however. (Oh! I guess we already have that.)
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:59 AM   #73
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If we lived in tribal societies, or even in frontier towns we would understand that family and group survival and propagation into the future is the purpose of life.
If?

Seems to me that our society is still pretty tribal, and I believe that xenophobia is much of an evolutionary aspect of our wired-in behavior as fear of snakes, fear of the dark, or our need to procreate. (or racism or homophobia for that matter, but let's stay away from those hot buttons.)

For example, I am always surprised at the extent to which folks identify with sports teams, using phases like "we trounced them". This has reached absurd levels with college sports.

Forgive me if I have told this anecdote before, but I heard this in one of those mega-corp management training boondoggles and cannot forget it.

Supposedly, a some sociologists wanted to do research on team (or tribe) identification. They staged a fake three day management boondoggle. Several hundred participants spent all day listening to a real seminar about some management fad de jour.

Here is the experiment. They randomly handed out gimme caps at the beginning and required the participants to wear them to every function. Half of the caps were red and half blue. They never referred to the caps in any way.

The first day, folks sat with their friends and the red and blue caps were evenly distributed throughout the auditorium. By the second day a division between red and blue began to appear. By the third day, the two groups were at each other's throats.

Do I need to put on my asbestos underwear now?
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:02 AM   #74
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Do I need to put on my asbestos underwear now?
I'm hopeful we can hold off until at least mid-June.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:29 AM   #75
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Okay, I failed to express myself properly yet again. What I meant to emphasis was the "principles of evolution would have shaped those beings just as they did life on Earth, selecting for self-preserving behavior" portion of the quote. That, to me, explains the "Us vs Them" mentality that Humans are saddled with. (BTW, in this context "They" = "Principles of Evolution.")

In any event, I am not by any stretch a conspiracy advocate nor concerned about intelligent visitors from other worlds... I don't rule out non-intelligent threats, however. (Oh! I guess we already have that.)
sorry if I am not tracking your logic

I just think the us vs them thing is a very cool concept, and it turns on who you perceive to be the "other", as you have stated

I think a big part of the red/blue divide sources in different perceptions of who is "the other"
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:33 AM   #76
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If?

Seems to me that our society is still pretty tribal, and I believe that xenophobia is much of an evolutionary aspect of our wired-in behavior as fear of snakes, fear of the dark, or our need to procreate. (or racism or homophobia for that matter, but let's stay away from those hot buttons.)

For example, I am always surprised at the extent to which folks identify with sports teams, using phases like "we trounced them". This has reached absurd levels with college sports.

Forgive me if I have told this anecdote before, but I heard this in one of those mega-corp management training boondoggles and cannot forget it.

Supposedly, a some sociologists wanted to do research on team (or tribe) identification. They staged a fake three day management boondoggle. Several hundred participants spent all day listening to a real seminar about some management fad de jour.

Here is the experiment. They randomly handed out gimme caps at the beginning and required the participants to wear them to every function. Half of the caps were red and half blue. They never referred to the caps in any way.

The first day, folks sat with their friends and the red and blue caps were evenly distributed throughout the auditorium. By the second day a division between red and blue began to appear. By the third day, the two groups were at each other's throats.

Do I need to put on my asbestos underwear now?
those tribal forces are always there, just beneath the surface. Wise leaders leverage these forces, rather than try to suppress them

we all have this hunger for tribal rivalry within us, and sports is a safe outlet for this energy
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:43 AM   #77
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those tribal forces are always there, just beneath the surface. Wise leaders leverage these forces, rather than try to suppress them
Agreed, although this sometimes leads to horrifying results. I will refrain from giving examples here.
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:23 PM   #78
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Agreed, although this sometimes leads to horrifying results. I will refrain from giving examples here.
bringing it down to the level of the individual, this points to the question

"what am I"

rather than

"what do I wish to be"

when your perception of what you should be, is different that what you actually are, this sets up a tension factor, like a stretched elastic

rediscovering your primal core, in non-destructive ways, relieves this tension
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:54 PM   #79
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you work, you are paying the rent...whats the problem?

who is to say which life is better than another

yet you hang out here

you say you don't want to change, yet you envy others here

would you like to dig into this a bit?
Not rreally. Besides, what would be the point? Sounds a bit like undergoing psychotherapy....
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