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Old 09-09-2016, 08:44 AM   #41
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I've never understood the compunction to frantically get into line when they announce boarding. Standing there all anxious and getting on board, just to sit there for another half hour ! The less time in the cigar tube the better, I say.
That's an easy one. The battle for overhead space. The demand for space far exceeds the supply, and charging separately for checked luggage only makes this worse. It is amazing the amount of stuff people bring on board and what they will do to find a place to stow it.

I like an aisle seat and can't remember a trip where I wasn't smacked in the side of the head by someone's shoulder bag at least once. One of the most dangerous moments is when the plan taxis to a stop after landing, and suddenly half the passengers stand up, open the luggage compartment, grab their suitcase and swing it out, when clearly there's no place to set them all down.
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Old 09-09-2016, 08:51 AM   #42
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What really drives me nuts is I routinely fly on small planes that have limited overhead space so they will check your carry on bag at the gate . People drag huge suitcases up to the gate to avoid the $25 check fee .These bags are way larger than carry on .
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:13 AM   #43
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Even if I spent a whole day half-asleep and then went to bed early, I'd still be way ahead in dollar terms (even after paying $100-200 for a hotel night plus another $50-100 for meals). I would partially "waste" a day but have an extra $1400 in my pocket using OP's prices (which would buy us an extra week or two of vacation depending on where we travel).

I would be all over a cheap 1st or business class upgrade for an 8-9 hour flight at ~$200-300 max, but not sure I would pay a lot more. Is it an age thing? Maybe I'll feel differently at 46 or 56 or 66 than I do now at 36.
Interesting and pretty compelling way to look at it, Fuego. I'm in my 40s and have recently been toying with the idea of splurging on international business class, but your analysis makes a lot of sense to me. Why would I spend an extra $1500 or $2000 to make the most of that first day at my destination, when I could easily add an extra day (or two, or three!) to the trip and still be way ahead financially? Plus, with today's modern pharmaceuticals, I can feel very, very relaxed on the entire 8-12 hour flight each way and probably sleep for a large portion of it. Seems like the way to go is premium economy, some Xanax, and an extra day or two at my destination to fully recover from the jet lag and lost sleep on the plane. Brilliant!
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:24 AM   #44
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edit: another confusing airline travel issue: why is early boarding so important and loved by many on this thread? I dislike being on a plane and want to board as late as possible (unless it's southwest and I want to pick a seat with my companion(s) ). I'd close the cabin door on my way in if they'd let me! Of course I'm in coach and many of you are in biz/1st so maybe that's the difference? Is it overhead space for your carry-ons? I figure if I can get on the plane 30 minutes later than the first people on, my flight is 30 minutes shorter!
Ah, but if they're doing their job in Business Class you get pre-flight adult beverages. It's the only time I'll drink Champagne in the morning! (That's on long-hauls on vacation, I hasten to add; not on a one-hour flight to a business meeting in Chicago.)

I also agree with the philosophy of getting on so you have space for your carry-on above your seat; there are people who will stash their bag wherever it fits on the way back to Coach- and sometimes that's Business Class. I also remember the words of my Dad who flew for business in the 1960s: you don't have a confirmed seat till you're sitting in it.

Another Business Class nicety: you rarely have to wait for the lav because there are fewer passengers per lav in Business, and you don't need to become embarrassingly intimate with the strangers in your row as you climb over them to get there. (I like window seats.) There's plenty of leg room.
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:52 AM   #45
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Interesting and pretty compelling way to look at it, Fuego. I'm in my 40s and have recently been toying with the idea of splurging on international business class, but your analysis makes a lot of sense to me. Why would I spend an extra $1500 or $2000 to make the most of that first day at my destination, when I could easily add an extra day (or two, or three!) to the trip and still be way ahead financially? Plus, with today's modern pharmaceuticals, I can feel very, very relaxed on the entire 8-12 hour flight each way and probably sleep for a large portion of it. Seems like the way to go is premium economy, some Xanax, and an extra day or two at my destination to fully recover from the jet lag and lost sleep on the plane. Brilliant!
Thanks for the confirmation. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't jumping into the crazy deep end of deprivation frugality.

I'm working on the backbone of an 8-9 week summer vacation in Europe so I'm considering options. Fortunately the flight to Europe we're looking at is relatively short (10 hours total time from RDU including 8 hrs from Washington DC to Lisbon, PT). Leave Raleigh at 7:30 pm, arrive in Lisbon at 10:30 am. I figure we'll squeeze in 4-5 hours of sleep somewhere in there, and be a little tired when we hit the ground. We'll probably grab some lunch, and then hopefully we can check into our Airbnb or hotel a little early, grab a nap, and take it from there. Worst case we're off kilter for a day or two.


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Ah, but if they're doing their job in Business Class you get pre-flight adult beverages. It's the only time I'll drink Champagne in the morning! (That's on long-hauls on vacation, I hasten to add; not on a one-hour flight to a business meeting in Chicago.)
That's a mighty expensive glass of bubbly. You can grab a glass of champagne at the lounge or restaurant for $10! Or enjoy a whole bottle for $10 at home! Or in Europe! I don't think a glass of champagne would be enough to coax me into an airplane 30 minutes early, not even if it was free.
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:13 AM   #46
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Thanks for the confirmation. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't jumping into the crazy deep end of deprivation frugality.

I'm working on the backbone of an 8-9 week summer vacation in Europe so I'm considering options. Fortunately the flight to Europe we're looking at is relatively short (10 hours total time from RDU including 8 hrs from Washington DC to Lisbon, PT). Leave Raleigh at 7:30 pm, arrive in Lisbon at 10:30 am. I figure we'll squeeze in 4-5 hours of sleep somewhere in there, and be a little tired when we hit the ground. We'll probably grab some lunch, and then hopefully we can check into our Airbnb or hotel a little early, grab a nap, and take it from there. Worst case we're off kilter for a day or two.




That's a mighty expensive glass of bubbly. You can grab a glass of champagne at the lounge or restaurant for $10! Or enjoy a whole bottle for $10 at home! Or in Europe! I don't think a glass of champagne would be enough to coax me into an airplane 30 minutes early, not even if it was free.
Well don't forget you are pricing for a family of five not a couple of seniors. And maybe you will sleep and maybe you won't. Deprivation frugality I don't know about that but consider between the travel and the cruise maybe the OP doesn't really care to add extra time to the trip, they place a bigger emphasis on being comfortable after a long vacation. You don't book business class just for a glass of bubbly. They didn't ask about the best way to spend the upgrade money they asked if the upgrade was worth it on it's own merits.
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:33 AM   #47
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I've been buying more business when I can.

Earlier this year, I flew to London round-trip on a sale for just over $2000, then bought a separate ticket to Geneva.

Next spring, I bought a round-trip business ticket from SFO to Paris for $2200. Again, will buy a separate flight to go to Spain but will spend a couple of nights in Paris on the way back.

But I've also spent around $4000 for business class tickets too. I've been going for Gold status on United for years, which now requires $6000 of spending per year. Well I could do that with 4 economy international flights or maybe 2 business class flights. Doing more of the latter now, though I used to do the former.

Also have a lot of miles so I've been redeeming for business class awards every year as well.
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:34 AM   #48
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Well don't forget you are pricing for a family of five not a couple of seniors. And maybe you will sleep and maybe you won't. Deprivation frugality I don't know about that but consider between the travel and the cruise maybe the OP doesn't really care to add extra time to the trip, they place a bigger emphasis on being comfortable after a long vacation. You don't book business class just for a glass of bubbly. They didn't ask about the best way to spend the upgrade money they asked if the upgrade was worth it on it's own merits.
Yeah, I get it. $800 per person to upgrade. That would be $4000 for our family of five (= a month or two in Mexico, for example).

I figure OP is like most of us 99.9-percenters where we are constantly making trade offs in our spending decisions. $1600 more for more comfy seats for 8-10 hours or stretch the vacation by a few days or possibly a week. Or book a week long cruise to the Caribbean at a different time.

In other words, are there better uses of $1600 in your life beyond renting a nicer, larger seat with nicer meals and drinks? Could you get 10-20x as many nicer meals and drinks once you get where you're going and is that worth the trade off of sitting in steerage class for half a day?

I think comparing business class upgrades for $800/ticket with other business class upgrades that cost $1000-2000/ticket for similar flights is meaningless. The $800 cost of upgrade must be worth it on its own merits, regardless of what the customary price is.

If someone offered me a flight to the international space station for $1.5 million instead of the customary $15 million, I wouldn't say "oh great value; here's all my worldly possessions and let's go!". I would evaluate whether the price asked is worth it compared to alternate ways to spend my money and always seek highest and best value for money. I think that analytical framework helps you spend money in a happiness-maximizing manner (unless you have essentially unlimited resources).
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Old 09-09-2016, 11:19 AM   #49
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I wouldn't pay to upgrade. I have never actually enjoyed a flight- I just dislike it less when I fly an upgraded class. I'd use the money I save to pay for something that I DO enjoy on vacation- like a few extra days, a nice dinner out- an expensive tour- whatever. But as others mentioned, I'm 44, so there is little difference in discomfort. They are all long and boring and I always take a valium regardless of where I sit- I am a white knuckle flyer. I'm small too- so i fit pretty easily into the seats. But that's how I'd get the most value for my money- its all in what you value.
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Old 09-09-2016, 11:45 AM   #50
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Is it an age thing? Maybe I'll feel differently at 46 or 56 or 66 than I do now at 36.
Precisely.
At your age I was the same way. From the middle of the US to the middle of Europe (and planes were slower then) I had little difficulty.

But now it's a completely different ballgame.
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Old 09-09-2016, 11:49 AM   #51
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I realize I'm in a very different class of net worth and spending than some on this thread, but I have to ask. I've seen multiple mentions of the ability to sleep in business class seats and that translates to 1-3 extra days of useful time once you land in Europe.

I've never done the Europe flight, but did a similar flight to Uruguay (on our Uruguay/Argentina/Buenos Aires vacation several years ago). We flew economy class using points (40,000 pts off season rates!). I recall it was 2 hours to Miami from Raleigh, then 9 hours overnight from MIA to Montevideo Uruguay. I slept some but not a lot (though DW reports sleeping well). I was a little groggy upon arriving in Montevideo but after some coffee and a decent meal I don't remember the first day being a bust at all. I probably went to bed early and it was fine after that.

Even if I spent a whole day half-asleep and then went to bed early, I'd still be way ahead in dollar terms (even after paying $100-200 for a hotel night plus another $50-100 for meals). I would partially "waste" a day but have an extra $1400 in my pocket using OP's prices (which would buy us an extra week or two of vacation depending on where we travel).

I would be all over a cheap 1st or business class upgrade for an 8-9 hour flight at ~$200-300 max, but not sure I would pay a lot more. Is it an age thing? Maybe I'll feel differently at 46 or 56 or 66 than I do now at 36.

edit: another confusing airline travel issue: why is early boarding so important and loved by many on this thread? I dislike being on a plane and want to board as late as possible (unless it's southwest and I want to pick a seat with my companion(s) ). I'd close the cabin door on my way in if they'd let me! Of course I'm in coach and many of you are in biz/1st so maybe that's the difference? Is it overhead space for your carry-ons? I figure if I can get on the plane 30 minutes later than the first people on, my flight is 30 minutes shorter!

edit 2: I only fly 1-2 trips per year so maybe the very infrequent inconvenience of coach doesn't bother me as much.
It's the time zones that cause jet lag, not the distance so much or age really imo. I don't think Uruguay is too many time zones away from where you live? Adjusting to jet lag is going to be difficult regardless of class of travel but being able to sleep a little on the destination's schedule helps a lot. We still found our kids when they were very little dozing with their heads on restaurant tables for a few days after arrival in Europe.
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Old 09-09-2016, 12:04 PM   #52
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It's the time zones, not the distance so much or age really imo. I don't think Uruguay is too many time zones away from where you live?
Montevideo and Buenos Aires are 1-2 hours ahead of Eastern time - really not much difference. I've done the east coast to west coast USA trip a few times and the 3 hours difference wasn't noticeable. I imagine the 5 hour difference to Europe in the other direction would actually help if we have a sleepless night flight to Europe. By 9-10 pm in Lisbon we'll be dead tired even though it would only be 4-5 pm in Raleigh. Hit the sheets for 10 hours and we'll be back to a mostly normal daytime schedule in local time.

Coming back the other direction to the US, most of the flights end up in Raleigh late in the evening, so we'll probably be tired by the time we get home. If I'm worn out the next day or two after all day traveling, no biggie, I'll just watch some netflix and chill out. And coffee.

I guess we'll see how this theory works out in practice since I've never been to Europe and only flown 9+ hours on the round trip to Uruguay/Argentina (without kids in tow). I'm betting $4000 we'll be okay in coach.
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Old 09-09-2016, 12:08 PM   #53
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It's the time zones that cause jet lag, not the distance so much or age really imo. I don't think Uruguay is too many time zones away from where you live? Adjusting to jet lag is going to be difficult regardless of class of travel but being able to sleep a little on the destination's schedule helps a lot.
This. Traveling to the EU from US means you arrive tomorrow. A lot of flights go out in the early evening, and you arrive early morning (ie US 3-4am ish), so getting even 3-4 hours sleep is a leg up vs. none. EU hotels are far less likely to be liberal with early check-in as well, so you might need to spend some time sightseeing before you can get to a bed.

Oh and yes, airport lounge access! Particularly nice if you have a layover on the flight out, even a short one. Included when you fly business.
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Old 09-09-2016, 12:15 PM   #54
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I realize I'm in a very different class of net worth and spending than some on this thread, but I have to ask. I've seen multiple mentions of the ability to sleep in business class seats and that translates to 1-3 extra days of useful time once you land in Europe.


I would be all over a cheap 1st or business class upgrade for an 8-9 hour flight at ~$200-300 max, but not sure I would pay a lot more. Is it an age thing? Maybe I'll feel differently at 46 or 56 or 66 than I do now at 36.

edit: another confusing airline travel issue: why is early boarding so important and loved by many on this thread?

edit 2: I only fly 1-2 trips per year so maybe the very infrequent inconvenience of coach doesn't bother me as much.
The issue is not the length of the trip but the time zones. You generally leave the east coast US around 7PM and get to Europe around 7AM. But your body is saying it is really 1AM. ("Jet lag is my favorite drug" Jacques Cousteau)

So now your wander around your destination like a zombie or try to nap.
Yes, age and finances come into the decision making process. Some of us codgers have bad backs and those econ seats are killers. (Actually had an older co-worker foolishly book coach to Japan...ended up hurting his back so bad he was partially paralyzed and had to retire)

Getting on early is mostly about getting overhead space. After lugging your bag through the airport, you really don't want to have to gate check it because there's no more room.
Of course, in First, you get early snacks and wine/champagne/cocktails (which helps me sleep) while waiting for everyone else to board.

In the good ol' days, my airline had a separate boarding ramp that came directly from the club room. No waiting in line at the gate!
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Old 09-09-2016, 12:32 PM   #55
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Montevideo and Buenos Aires are 1-2 hours ahead of Eastern time - really not much difference. I've done the east coast to west coast USA trip a few times and the 3 hours difference wasn't noticeable. I imagine the 5 hour difference to Europe in the other direction would actually help if we have a sleepless night flight to Europe. By 9-10 pm in Lisbon we'll be dead tired even though it would only be 4-5 pm in Raleigh. Hit the sheets for 10 hours and we'll be back to a mostly normal daytime schedule in local time.

Coming back the other direction to the US, most of the flights end up in Raleigh late in the evening, so we'll probably be tired by the time we get home. If I'm worn out the next day or two after all day traveling, no biggie, I'll just watch some netflix and chill out. And coffee.

I guess we'll see how this theory works out in practice since I've never been to Europe and only flown 9+ hours on the round trip to Uruguay/Argentina (without kids in tow). I'm betting $4000 we'll be okay in coach.
If you start a thread about jet lag a couple of months before you go I bet you will get a lot of great tips on how to deal with it.
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:01 PM   #56
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The difference in price between coach and business class is $1600 (for both of you). The question is: is it worth it? And one way to answer that is "Is there any other way we could spend the $1600 that would bring us more happiness?" If there is, you should at least investigate spending the money in that way.

Another way to look at it: It's a difference in price of $800 each. If you had a seat in business class and someone offered you $800 to move to a coach seat for the flight, would you take it? It's, what, 12 hours in the seat, so that's $66 per hour. And it's not like there's a huge difference in the absolute sense--same plane, slightly better food, and a slightly wider seat.
That's the way I look at it also. What else could I do with the money, and would I prefer to do that?
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:28 PM   #57
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So now your wander around your destination like a zombie or try to nap.
Get "paid" to nap by saving $800 when you stay in coach? Sounds like smart money!

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Yes, age and finances come into the decision making process. Some of us codgers have bad backs and those econ seats are killers. (Actually had an older co-worker foolishly book coach to Japan...ended up hurting his back so bad he was partially paralyzed and had to retire)
I love to get up and walk around the plane. I sometimes wonder if I could do sit ups and push ups in the aisle to get the blood flowing but figure I'll get tossed in the brig by an air marshal for disorderly conduct or something.
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:29 PM   #58
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Oh yeah, the real cost of buying anything is not buying something else (unless you are Gates) which most are not.

I spent my time in coach, not anymore -
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:31 PM   #59
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Oh and yes, airport lounge access! Particularly nice if you have a layover on the flight out, even a short one. Included when you fly business.
Not such a big out of pocket cost. United's club is $15/person when you buy the passes on ebay ($27 at the club if you pay cash IIRC).
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Old 09-09-2016, 01:34 PM   #60
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If you start a thread about jet lag a couple of months before you go I bet you will get a lot of great tips on how to deal with it.
I'm not too worried about it. We usually stay in a place for a week at a time so we'll have a day or two to cope with jet lag without missing out on anything. Just might have to schedule our "do nothing" days for the beginning of our week in Lisbon or wherever we end up. Or stay there 9 days instead of 7.
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