The Ugly Thai...

[Lancelot]

Thanks Ha

 

[Billy]

Good job, Ha. Well said.

Billy and I have been coming to Thailand for 1/2 dozen years now. If one is able to look beyond the surface smiles, one can actually see 'the life' the locals live.

We frequented a restaurant down our soi most of the times we have visited here, and got to know the restaurant owner well. Or thought we did. We joked back and forth, hired her catering services and brought friends to her place to help her out by supporting her business.

The Thai owner is a single woman in her late 30's, and a large one at that. Billly's brother is 6 foot 6, and when he came to visit, we joked that maybe they would make a nice couple, looking good together. This was the wrong thing to say, apparently, because Billy's brother did not take a shining to her (it wasn't a promise or a contract... ) and we had to pay for the fallout. The restaurant owner was so hurt, lost face and felt betrayed, that even after 5 years of frequenting her business, she 'kicked us out' and now doesn't even say hello to us anymore.

There are lots of things that we as foreigners take for granted - like being able to work things out with a local, or subtleties in humor.

Ah well, like Lance says, TIT, This is Thailand.

Akaisha
Author, The Adventurer's Guide to Early Retirement

 

[dex]

I worked in Hong Kong for two years and it was a great experience and I learned many thing.
Previously to living there I traveled to China, India and Nepal. Also, lived in London for 2 years.

When Traveling I learned:

1. You are a guest in a country act respectfully.

1. It is not the United States of Asia - each country has a long history that greatly influences the perceptions and actions of the inhabitants. We from the United States of America are not great on history nor on its affects.

2. If you don't want to be thought of as being the usual American tourist - Don't smile so much; don't laugh at everything; don't talk so much; don't tell too much personal information; don't ask too much personal information; don't wear bright clothing; loose weight (if you are big); don't smell! I learned these rules from my observations in working in China and Japan. I can tell I am taken more seriously when I follow these guidelines.

4. Americans are very friendly and egalitarian in their dealings with people. In many countries in the world the structure is hierarchical. This influences the interaction you have with the locals.

5. Don't think the people you meet are just like you but just don't speak English (or it is a 2, 3, or 4th language). Generally, a traveling American has greater wealth; more education, a european historical background and wider experiences than the local people you will meet.

Some of these thoughts will be attacked by others as being culturally insensitive. The opposite is true. Realize that uninformed preceptions and assumptions of the locals do not allow you to see what is truly there.

Finally, remember that the locals have assumptions about you. If you do not fulfill those assumptions when they first meet you; they may treat you differently than the usual tourist.

 

[Nords]

There are lots of things that we as foreigners take for granted - like being able to work things out with a local, or subtleties in humor.

The phrase that comes to mind in both Lance's and Billy's/Akaisha's situations is:
"drama queen".

Apparently a global phenomenon.

And, Dex, your observations sure have me wanting to jump up out of my recliner and travel! Not. I think it's fair to say that most people who come in contact with foreign visitors are in the travel/service industry and their profit depends on being polite & engaging. But in the end none of us are more than business, some easier to do business with than others, yet certainly not family.

Hawaii had a multi-century retail business that morphed into a 20th-century department store called "Liberty House". In the Japanese market's go-go years of the 1980s they totally focused their attention on the Japanses visitor to the point of shuttling tour groups to the store, favoring bilingual clerks with little/no retail experience, and carrying whatever fashion/home merchandise was popular in Japan (not always in Hawaii). At the same time they neglected their local customers because locals just weren't bringing in the profits per employee the way the Japanese visitors were.

So the locals stopped shopping there, although it took a while for LH to care. The store didn't last more than a few months after the Japanese visitor stream dried up and was bought out of bankruptcy by Macy's. 150 years of tradition were destroyed in less than a decade.

So I think there'll always be some institutional/cultural bias against visitors. I don't think it's being Americans or not fitting in or having too much money as much as it's not being family. Even after 18 years in Hawaii our family is no longer malihini but certainly not kama'aina. Our kid (tall blonde Caucasian) is accepted as "local" since she's born & raised here, but we parents may never be. "Locals" who look no more Hawaiian or Asian than I do find it hard to believe that I'd want to spend the rest of my life here. Again I don't think it's cultural rudeness or paranoia or exploitive-- it's simply just whether or not you're family, even if nothing more than a hanai cousin.

I haven't been to my "home"town since 1983 and I lived less than 18 years there. Yet if I returned to my old street tomorrow I'd be hailed as a local by anyone old enough to remember me or my family. Weird. Of course they'd still make fun of me for collapsing into a fetal ball at the first sign of cold weather, but that's just because you can behave that way with family!

Oddly enough, one of the reasons spouse and I like it here is because once again it's far away from our families...

 

[dex]

And, Dex, your observations sure have me wanting to jump up out of my recliner and travel! Not.

I don't know which recommendation I mentioned would put off anyone who like to travel in international cultures. On the contrary they are intended to make the experience more enriching. They were not specifically aimed at commercial transactions.

When I travel I try to be as unobtrusive as possible (similar to when I go camping - "Take only photographs and leave only footprints.") I do this in the hopes to see another view on life and learn.

For example, the items in item number 2 were told to me directly, indirectly and in other ways from some business people I met in Japan and news reporters I knew there.

 

[shiny]

Well, now I'm worried about living in Japan because I smile too much - it is just one of my many flaws!

 

[Sam]

I am not a world traveler, but I've never been in a place on earth where a smile is not appreciated.

Geez, don't smile to much A smile is the best you can bring to people around you, regardless of time or location.

 

[haha]

I am not a world traveler, but I've never been in a place on earth where a smile is not appreciated.

Geez, don't smile to much A smile is the best you can bring to people around you, regardless of time or location.

You really can make errors even with smiles. Like smiles from men to women or women to men can create various types of difficulty. Sometimes it's OK, sometimes not. The truth is, usually you get away with things. But depending on where you are and what your surroundings are, not necessarily.

Often what we assume is friendly or unsophisticated or happy go lucky behavior is just behavior we don't catch the nuances of. Face it, we may have nonexistent to mediocre understanding of the local language and almost no understanding of local customs, history, vendettas, etc. Even people who are specifically trained to look beneath the surface get confused at times. What chance does a typical American who is essentially trained to ignore what is staring him in the face have?

If you go from Minnesota to Mississippi, do you think you really know what is going on when everyone calls you sir and your server is saying Honey this and Honey that? Clue- they aren’t calling you sir because they think you have earned it!

It isn’t a slam dunk for transplants to Seattle from other US cities to figure out the social signals. Good luck in Paraguay or Cambodia!

Ha

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Ha is right. We have a number of close friends from France, other Asia and Latin America. Among other things, they all say that the grinning, too-eager-to-laugh American stereotype (in their home culture, at least) comes out as being kind of goofy, someone you wouldn't take seriously, kind of low-brow, etc.

And smiling at another man's wife or girl friend can generate a lot more jealousy than it normally would here. If you don't wish to inadvertently offend, it's best to initially play it safe.

Other: many places, grown-up don't wear shorts or jeans other than for soccer or working in the garden.

If you don't care whether you are offending, well, I guess you're just reinforcing the stereotype of Ugly American.

 

[shiny]

I do travel a lot and I probably smile too much. One good thing about not working is that I don't have to worry about doing something wrong in that context.

It's just hard for me to grasp not being me (smiles and all) because it has worked to well in the past. People I have met overseas have: emailed me often, sent me champagne, come to visit me in the US, asked me to be "aunt" and godmother to their children, asked to have their pictures taken with me, encircled me in a restaurant to teach them how to pronounce english words on the menu, let me spend the night at their house (once), given me countless rides and helped me when I'm lost and even ask ME directions when I'm not even sure where I am myself.

So, I guess there are people I have confused along the way, but I don't feel that I'm being an ugly american. I will be more careful about joking after reading Akaisha's story though.

 

[Sam]

You really can make errors even with smiles. Like smiles from men to women or women to men can create various types of difficulty.

And smiling at another man's wife or girl friend can generate a lot more jealousy than it normally would here. If you don't wish to inadvertently offend, it's best to initially play it safe.

Ha and Rich,

I have the feeling you two are confusing (intentionally or habitually) smiling with flirting. Am I correct?

Anyway, flirting with someone's girlfriend or wife is a no no, abroad or at home. But I'm sure you already know that

 

[haha]

So, I guess there are people I have confused along the way, but I don't feel that I'm being an ugly american. I will be more careful about joking after reading Akaisha's story though.

Since I have met you, I can say without any doubt you are a very subtle person who misses nothing.

I am more talking about me-I have made some greenhorn mistakes that put me in tough situations. People visited me too, but it wasn't fun.

My wife says that over the years I have slowly gone from stupid to somewhat less stupid.

Ha

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Ha and Rich,

I have the feeling you two are confusing (intentionally or habitually) smiling with flirting. Am I correct?
Anyway, flirting with someone's girlfriend or wife is a no no, abroad or at home. But I'm sure you already know that

Well, I guess that's really the heart of the matter: what we consider just a friendly smile with no flirtation might be viewed differently in other cultures.

And I think Shiny makes a good point. The better-traveled and educated folks in foreign countries likely know that Americans just do such things, and they don't tend to overreact that much. Kind of like a Japanese person giving you a little bow of the head - you just know it's what they do, and don't interpret it otherwise.

 

[haha]

I don't think I am talking about flirting either. I am pretty careful about flirting even when I am being flirted with.

Anyway, anyone can do whatever he/she wants. I just know that it is easy to misunderstand what all might be going down.

Some environments are easier than others. I spent long periods on horseback in places that roads didn't go. Like, how would you interpret it when a guy at a cockfight picks up his bird and French kisses its anus? It was the same for me; I didn't really know how to see these things, so I tried to appear cool.

I think smiling is good. Important in many environments is that one can be sure that his smile signals respect, and not necessarily familiarity.

Ha

 

[Sam]

Ha, you sound serious. As I said, I have not been around that much, most likely a lot less than you.

So, please elaborate on the trouble caused by smiling. Situation, country, surrounding elements... Thanks.

 

[wabmester]

Like, how would you interpret it when a guy at a cockfight picks up his bird and French kisses its anus?

OK, I'll bite. What is the correct response? I assume it's not bowing.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Like, how would you interpret it when a guy at a cockfight picks up his bird and French kisses its anus?

Yes, that would be flirting.

 

[haha]

OK, I'll bite. What is the correct response? I assume it's not bowing.

I can tell you one thing for sure- the guy who administered this avian beso negro was not smiling.

Ha

 

[Nords]

For example, the items in item number 2 were told to me directly, indirectly and in other ways from some business people I met in Japan and news reporters I knew there.

Yes, that's the one. Probably not distributed by the Japan Visitors & Convention Bureau, either.

Ha is right. We have a number of close friends from France, other Asia and Latin America. Among other things, they all say that the grinning, too-eager-to-laugh American stereotype (in their home culture, at least) comes out as being kind of goofy, someone you wouldn't take seriously, kind of low-brow, etc.
And smiling at another man's wife or girl friend can generate a lot more jealousy than it normally would here. If you don't wish to inadvertently offend, it's best to initially play it safe.
Other: many places, grown-up don't wear shorts or jeans other than for soccer or working in the garden.
If you don't care whether you are offending, well, I guess you're just reinforcing the stereotype of Ugly American.

Heck, I come out that way among our neighbors & acquaintances... you know, the ones who think I'm ER'd because I can't hold a job with my goofy low-brow habits.

I can understand "Ugly American" for those who dress scantily in churches/memorials or who won't bother to learn the language or complain loudly/publicly or who behave as if they're uproariously drunk. But as for the jealousy & the dress code... those folks need to get a life.

 

[ForeignExchange]

How can anyone not smile in Thailand? They don't call it the "land of smiles" for nothing.

I also try to blend in with the Thais as much as I possibly can. I'm the quiet type, and conservative in the clothes I wear, so I guess that helps.

One important thing I haven't been able to do yet though, is sit comfortably cross legged on a temple floor.

If I make any mistakes, my wife will be the first to inform me.

 

[Lancelot]

How can anyone not smile in Thailand? They don't call it the "land of smiles" for nothing.

I also try to blend in with the Thais as much as I possibly can. I'm the quiet type, and conservative in the clothes I wear, so I guess that helps.

One important thing I haven't been able to do yet though, is sit comfortably cross legged on a temple floor.

If I make any mistakes, my wife will be the first to inform me.

I see a lot of non-smiling Thais in Bangkok. They are often a bit gruff with each other, such as not saying thank you when receiving payments or excuse me when bumping in to each other. On the othe hand, if they want something from each other, they can be overly polite and talkative.

 

[Lancelot]

4. Americans are very friendly and egalitarian in their dealings with people. In many countries in the world the structure is hierarchical. This influences the interaction you have with the locals.

Very accurate observation. Most relationships here are defined by who is the "Poo yi" (big man.) Asians in general are VERY hierarchial and the "superior" person does not tolerate much insolence from the "lower."

I saw a mercedes pull up in front of my old condominum, blocking the exit lane. The security guy runs up and says "You can't park here, move!" The Thai guy inside powers his heavily tinted window down about 2 inches and says "The car has revers gear" then powers it up, disappearing from sight.

The security guard snaps to attention, clicks his heels and salutes; he practicaly ran back to the guard shack.

 

[Billy]

4. Americans are very friendly and egalitarian in their dealings with people. In many countries in the world the structure is hierarchical. This influences the interaction you have with the locals.

Very accurate observation. Most relationships here are defined by who is the "Poo yi" (big man.) Asians in general are VERY hierarchial and the "superior" person does not tolerate much insolence from the "lower."

Right.

We were in the process of negotiating our monthly room rate with the owner of our Guest House when Billy went to the office and said to the girls there: "Just tell Charlie we'll pay 'X'. "

The office girl smiled and said "I don't tell Charlie anything."

Billy then realized his grammar mistake and said: "Sorry, I mean, ask Charlie if 'X' is ok.."

Then the office girl says: "Better you talk with him. Better."

Yeah, leave me out of this. I just do what he says. These things are between you and him... and I don't 'tell' the boss anything!

Akaisha
Author, The Adventurer's Guide to Early Retirement

 

[Gumby]

My own observations for traveling in foreign countries:

1. Please try to learn some basics of the language. At the very least, be able to say hello, goodbye, please and thank you. They will most likely be able to speak English better than you do, but please don't presume. The more of the language you know, the better you will be treated.

2. Remember that many foreign countries are substantially more formal that the US. In many countries, the very language that one uses to address people changes depending on whether they are family and friends or just people in the street. Never use the familiar form unless specifically invited to do so.

3. Do some minimal research about the history and current events of the country you are visiting. If you cannot name the current head of state and the national hero, why are you there?

4. Do a little research so that you will know how to get around once you are there. Imagine how annoying it would be for you to tell someone the fundamentals of using the subway or catching a taxi.

5. For God's sake, keep quiet. Based on my observation, Americans may be the loudest people in the world. My goal in traveling is to be as inobtrusive as possible.

6. Dress conservatively. Leave the shorts, tennis shoes and T-shirts with stupid logos at home. Most of the world wears a collared shirt, long pants and regular shoes. While I have seen young people in jeans in foreign countries, I would never wear them myself (even though it is almost a uniform at home).

7. Remember that this is not a zoo or Disney World for your amusement. These are people living their everyday lives, who have to go to work and go shopping and do all the things you do at home. They may not have the time or inclination to help you because you were too foolish to figure out how to do things on your own. I also suggest a telephoto lens for pictures so that you don't need to get in someone's face with a camera.

8. Be polite and respectful - it doesn't hurt and you may be surprised how it helps.

 

[free4now]

While we're giving travel tips, here's my off the wall tip for men:

Figure out how to keep your nose hair under control.

On my round the world trip, I can't tell you how many european male travellers I ran into who were perfectly shaven, but had big hairs protuding from the proboscis. It seems that when people pack light they tend to forget they will need to trim their nose hairs. Maybe most of their trips in the past have been short enough that they could do it when they returned. But now they're doing a long trip and things are different.

There are lots of ways of trimming nose hair... you can use the beard cutter if you have an electric razor. Some small scissors work. Even nail clippers can do the job.

Especially in Asian countries where they take grooming seriously, not taking care of this could definitely put you into "Ugly American" territory.