Titles and Formalities

[ScottFromUtah]

A few years back, I went to see a doctor. It was my first visit to him. After initial introductions, I called him Dr. Y and he called me Scott. But during our conversation, we came to realize that he was once a student of mine in a senior-level biochemistry class. Spontaneously, the titles switched; I started calling him John and he started calling me Dr. Z.

I asked him kindly to call me Scott--then and several times later--but he never did. It was always Dr. Z.

So, now I'm retired, I feel that life should be more casual. I don't want to call anyone by a formal title (except maybe Mr. President Barack Obama and others of that stature, if for some miracle I happen to meet them face to face) and I don't want to be called by a formal title.

Has retirement made you less formal? (Or less respectful?)

 

[haha]

A few years back, I went to see a doctor. It was my first visit to him. After initial introductions, I called him Dr. Y and he called me Scott. But during our conversation, we came to realize that he was once a student of mine in a senior-level biochemistry class. Spontaneously, the titles switched; I started calling him John and he started calling me Dr. Z.

I asked him kindly to call me Scott--then and several times later--but he never did. It was always Dr. Z.

So, now I'm retired, I feel that life should be more casual. I don't want to call anyone by a formal title (except maybe Mr. President Barack Obama and others of that stature, if for some miracle I happen to meet them face to face) and I don't want to be called by a formal title.

Has retirement made you less formal? (Or less respectful?)

I call physicians and dentists doctor; I have not once in my life called a PhD doctor. In my Ivy university they were called Mr., as were the students. I call judges Your honor. I call police Officer, or Detective, or Sergeant as the case may be. If you are in a position to make life difficult for me, I'll call you Lord if you want me to. And if I have something I'd like to sell you, you can even be a Duke or Duchess.

I am somewhat puzzled about tu and usted in Spanish. It appears to me that among the people I have met, usted is gone. Everyone is tu. Suits me fine, but I am trying to be sure I will not step on someone's toes.

I sometimes call women 30 years younger than I M'am. If I am passing a young woman on the sidewalk, I might say Excuse me Mám . I call no one Miss. I do use Sir, if I want to ask someone a question say, or to pass by on the sidewalk. Usually even a pretty rough guy will not be difficult if he is called sir without irony.

Mosat people on the West Coast are first-namers, which can be good since you might be harder to locate should lawsuits be contemplated.

As far as respect, as distinct from titles, I think I have profound respect for everyone.

Ha

 

[FIREd]

I am not retired yet but I only expect people to use my formal title during formal introductions in a professional setting. I would feel awkward if anyone called me Dr. outside of work and/or continued to call me Dr. after having been formally introduced. So my title will probably retire with me.

 

[CuppaJoe]

.....

Has retirement made you less formal? (Or less respectful?)

Less formal, absolutely. Now I make sure to find my cleanest jeans to wear to the opera instead of a suit; clean jeans, clean hair, recent bath, I'm ready for anything. Less respectful, no, [-]your royal Scott[/-] sir! I have an increased awareness and awe for those who work, especially the baristas at the coffee shop.

 

[brewer12345]

As long as I escape such salutations as "hey, @sshole!" I figure I am ahead of the game.

 

[Milton]

A few years back, I went to see a doctor. It was my first visit to him. After initial introductions, I called him Dr. Y and he called me Scott.

While I'm not obsessive about it, generally speaking I prefer to take my lead from the physician and address him or her as they address me. If we are on a (mutual) first name basis, fine. If not, s/he is Dr. X and I am Mr. Y.

The physician-patient relationship should not be an excuse to infantize or patronize the patient, and most intelligent physicians understand that.

So, now I'm retired, I feel that life should be more casual.

Makes sense to me!

I don't want to call anyone by a formal title (except maybe Mr. President Barack Obama and others of that stature, if for some miracle I happen to meet them face to face).

You live in a republic and elected officials are working for you, so there's no need to be overly deferential. It is good manners to respect a person's position, but that doesn't translate into servility. And informality is not synomyous with disrespect.

If you are in a position to make life difficult for me, I'll call you Lord if you want me to.

If dealing with a stupid person equipped with a badge and a firearm, subservient behaviour is usually prudent!

I do use Sir, if I want to ask someone a question say, or to pass by on the sidewalk. Usually even a pretty rough guy will not be difficult if he is called sir without irony.

Excellent advice.

 

[Khan]

I have developed a tendency to ask up front how people want to be addressed, as I have never figured out the social/personal clues and other minutia.

 

[flyfishnevada]

I am an Engineer, but we don't get a fancy title just a few initials. I never used them outside of work, though. I mean, who cares? I call almost all my doctors, "doc". Never met one that seemed to be bothered by it. I probably couldn't get much more casual in retirement than I am now.

 

[Nords]

A few years back, I went to see a doctor. It was my first visit to him. After initial introductions, I called him Dr. Y and he called me Scott.

The medical clinic I visit is filled with interns and residents. When I address an intern as "doctor" they occasionally look over their shoulders or blush. Kinda like an ensign being called "Sir" or "Ma'am" for the first time.

But after they check my age, it takes a long time for everyone in that clinic to stop referring to me as "sir."

I find that the formalities can be a useful social lubricant. I personally don't care what I'm called, but I'm aware of when they're being used on me in an attempt to exert the psychology of influence. The more they're used to influence me, the more resistant I become. However I'm certainly not above using them on someone else to influence their behavior to rise to the standards of the customer-service image that I'm expecting them to uphold.

After 20 years of active duty and a few more years of reflective retirement, I'm more convinced than ever that the formal naval correspondence closing phrase of "Warm regards" is usually meant as a code phrase for "F$%^ off and die"... and lately I've begun to wonder about the phrase "Oh, thank you so much!"

 

[clifp]

I often call friends and colleagues with PHd "doctor", even woman I've dated. I am generally teasing about but hey you worked for a long time to get a PHd you should get some recognition.

 

[JOHNNIE36]

I totally agree with ha's thinking. Then after reading the post by clifp, I wanted to differ with that thought. While in college, some professors were called doctor; however, later in life I thought this unnecessary. Lets say I have a PHd in engineering in a corporate setting and not some college professor. I would never expect anyone to address me as doctor, just because I reached that level in education. Same for a college professor. Maybe it's tradition, but I call all physicians by the "doctor" title.

 

[travelover]

The only ones that I ever w*rked with (engineering) that were obsessed with titles were the Germans. Much to the amusement of the Brits and Americans, I might add.

 

[Milton]

The real losers are those lawyers who want to be called "doctor" (it used to be that law school graduates earned an LL.B. degree, but thanks to Americanization many Canadian law schools now grant a "J.D.").

Give me a break!

 

[DeborahB]

All my doctors are younger than me - some by quite a bit. I find they don't really address me by my name (I'm a long-time patient) so I never know what to call them. You would think they'd say "Call me Peter" or whatever but they usually don't. So I mostly don't call them anything. If I am referring to them when speaking to their staff, I say "Doctor xxx". I think the whole doctor/patient relationship needs shaking up, anyhow.

 

[ksr]

I personally don't care what I'm called, but I'm aware of when they're being used on me in an attempt to exert the psychology of influence.

I agree. Several years ago I was involved in a fender-bender. In the process of resolving it, the other driver called me at home once and called me by my first name, and identified himself as Mr. "xxx". This gentleman was a few years older than me, but not enough to make a significant difference. I am always happy to be called by my first name, but if someone is more formal than I am and wants us to go by "Ms." and "Mr.", that's fine too. But in this case I felt myself stiffen up and realized that he was (perhaps subconsciously) trying to gain the upper-hand, and I didn't care for that tactic at all.

 

[FUEGO]

Scott,

I had a good friendship with a college professor while in undergrad. I ended up working for a company where he sits on the board of directors. It's a small company, and so we have 1-2 social events per year where I find myself hanging out with this professor. At first it was awkward to call him by his first name (as I'm sure he felt most comfortable), but after six years I can do so with no problem. He would make a point to tell us to call him by his first name and I could tell he got a little uncomfortable being called Dr. ___ in a more social or business setting vs. a strictly academic setting. Thinking back, we would also address professors by saying "Professor Smith" as often as "Dr Smith". Or as Professor Smith if they didn't hold a doctorate.

 

[Martha]

After 20 years of active duty and a few more years of reflective retirement, I'm more convinced than ever that the formal naval correspondence closing phrase of "Warm regards" is usually meant as a code phrase for "F$%^ off and die"... and lately I've begun to wonder about the phrase "Oh, thank you so much!"

Yes, and "sincerely" means you better believe it buddy.

I quit putting salutations on correspondence many years ago in my law practice. I saw a work out lawyer send demand lettesr that started "dear" and ended "yours truly" and the dissonance was a bit much.

 

[ScottFromUtah]

My wife was a faculty member in the English Department at our university. There, many students call the Ph.D. professors "Dr." but many, maybe most, don't. In fact, they often use first names. I think that in general, English departments have a less formal environment that chemistry departments. Virtually all the chemistry departments with which I have been associated (including Ivy League and others) or know about have the tradition of their Ph.D. faculty being addressed as "Dr." by their students (certainly not by other faculty and staff).

 

[FUEGO]

The real losers are those lawyers who want to be called "doctor" (it used to be that law school graduates earned an LL.B. degree, but thanks to Americanization many Canadian law schools now grant a "J.D.").

You can call me Dr. Fuego from now on! I paid a lot for that sheepskin, and it says "Doctor" on it!!

 

[Martha]

The real losers are those lawyers who want to be called "doctor" (it used to be that law school graduates earned an LL.B. degree, but thanks to Americanization many Canadian law schools now grant a "J.D.").

Give me a break!

Never met a lawyer who wanted to be called doctor.

When I first practiced law the staff where I worked was pretty formal, calling the lawyers by Mr. or Ms. so and so. That practice gradually vanished over the years, with my generation far less formal than the prior generation and the current generation not formal at all.

 

[FIREd]

Virtually all the chemistry departments with which I have been associated (including Ivy League and others) or know about have the tradition of their Ph.D. faculty being addressed as "Dr." by their students (certainly not by other faculty and staff).

That has been my experience as well.

 

[MichaelB]

I am somewhat puzzled about tu and usted in Spanish. It appears to me that among the people I have met, usted is gone. Everyone is tu. Suits me fine, but I am trying to be sure I will not step on someone's toes.

Latinos is the US favor the informal tu, especially among people that grew up here or have lived here a long time. Not in Latin America, though, and not everyone here. Between generations folks still tend to the formal, especially when it comes to boyfriend/girlfriend talking to the parents (if they talk at all). My MIL was always ud. Some cultures (Like Colombia) use ud even among families and friends. I usually address someone as ud. and then see how it goes.

Mexican professionals are very title oriented. An engineer would be introduced as “Ingeniero Gonzalez and addressed as Ingeniero, not Señor. This is very important at the Universities and in business.

I still remember the first time someone called me “Sir”. Not as a sign of respect but an indication of aging.

My granddaughter just called me Abuelo yesterday. At least, that’s what it sounded like. If it sticks I’m changing my username...

 

[FUEGO]

Mexican professionals are very title oriented. An engineer would be introduced as “Ingeniero Gonzalez and addressed as Ingeniero, not Señor. This is very important at the Universities and in business.

I was going to point this out too. I think other places in the world also give titles to engineers (Thailand?? Germany?).

Regarding lawyers, I think the title Lic. is the title used in Mexico and elsewhere south of the border (Lic. is short for licenciado I assume). I also had a Spanish professor in college that didn't have a PhD but was an attorney from Peru or Colombia or somewhere. She referred to herself as Dra. or Doctora, which is a title I believe they use for attorneys in some places in S. America.

 

[HFWR]

As long as I escape such salutations as "hey, @sshole!" I figure I am ahead of the game.

That's Mr. @sshole...

Working in R&D, I worked with plenty of PhDs, but most were on a first name basis. Only used "Dr." when writing papers and giving presentations at conferences.

 

[MichaelB]

I was going to point this out too. I think other places in the world also give titles to engineers (Thailand?? Germany?).

Regarding lawyers, I think the title Lic. is the title used in Mexico and elsewhere south of the border (Lic. is short for licenciado I assume). I also had a Spanish professor in college that didn't have a PhD but was an attorney from Peru or Colombia or somewhere. She referred to herself as Dra. or Doctora, which is a title I believe they use for attorneys in some places in S. America.

Licenciado – you sure got that right. In Mexico this is how you address a college graduate – just señor is denigrating. Bachiller for a high school grad. Doctor for an attorney is correct, even though it is not usually a graduate level degree. In some countries, such as Brazil and Venezuela, it is common to address people in public sector positions of authority as Dr. – but that is much more of a “brown-nose” thing.