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Old 11-27-2008, 07:20 AM   #61
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I know places in East Texas (and elsewhere in the US) that are about as beautiful as any place on earth. Beauty is often in the eye of the beholder.

One thing I have learned though is: Wherever you go, there you are.
Among other places I've lived in Santa Fe, Seattle, Salida, CO, and recently transferred to Tyler, TX. Tyler is a beautiful place. Can't afford to retire here though. So either I look for affordable alternatives, or settle for working until I physically can't or drop dead. Doesn't make me disloyal to the U.S., just realistic. Heck, the U.S. is marching towards 400 million people. They won't miss me!
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Old 11-27-2008, 07:29 AM   #62
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I don't understand you at all on this.

Do you suggest people might want to move to a foreign country to avoid social pressure to keep up with the Jones?

Why must one move to a foreign country in order to not "keep up with the Jones"? And "social pressure"? It's never been an issue for me here in the good ole USofA.

(BTW - "keeping up with the Jones" is not a uniquely American thing)
I don't know what kind of lifestyle you live, but this holiday season is a great example of American social pressures. Just watch how much money you spend in the next month which is as a result of "that's what you do for Thanksgiving and Christmas". For most families, purchases of expensive food and gifts, etc. are controlled by what people around you are doing.

That's okay if you are working and have a steady income stream. But if you are retired with a minimal fixed income it is tough to find a way to not spend money. What to you do for Thanksgiving if you do not have the money to buy a turkey and all the trappings?

In a foreign country it is much easier to save money (or wisely spend the small money you have). A simple e-mail or telephone call is all that is required for Thanksgiving. For Christmas, a book from Amazon.com will suffice. No decorations, no pressure to buy expensive gifts - those are the social pressures that you avoid by moving abroad.

Perhaps you personally have the money to follow the standard traditions of the Holiday season, and maybe you enjoy the whole ritual. But if you live in the US and are retired on a minimal income, this is a difficult time to get along without money.
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Old 11-27-2008, 08:33 AM   #63
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I don't understand you at all on this.

Do you suggest people might want to move to a foreign country to avoid social pressure to keep up with the Jones?

Why must one move to a foreign country in order to not "keep up with the Jones"? And "social pressure"? It's never been an issue for me here in the good ole USofA.

(BTW - "keeping up with the Jones" is not a uniquely American thing)
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I don't know what kind of lifestyle you live, but this holiday season is a great example of American social pressures. Just watch how much money you spend in the next month which is as a result of "that's what you do for Thanksgiving and Christmas". For most families, purchases of expensive food and gifts, etc. are controlled by what people around you are doing.

That's okay if you are working and have a steady income stream. But if you are retired with a minimal fixed income it is tough to find a way to not spend money. What to you do for Thanksgiving if you do not have the money to buy a turkey and all the trappings?

In a foreign country it is much easier to save money (or wisely spend the small money you have). A simple e-mail or telephone call is all that is required for Thanksgiving. For Christmas, a book from Amazon.com will suffice. No decorations, no pressure to buy expensive gifts - those are the social pressures that you avoid by moving abroad.

Perhaps you personally have the money to follow the standard traditions of the Holiday season, and maybe you enjoy the whole ritual. But if you live in the US and are retired on a minimal income, this is a difficult time to get along without money.
turkey is cheap actually - we spend a little xmas money on DD - other than that, cards for most & token gifts for a few others.

I don't know where you live or how your family/neighbors may have been making you feel about "the season", but I've never felt any "social pressures" whatsoever about the whole thing and none of it's ever really been a big expense for us.

Certainly it's not anything that would ever be a factor into a decision to permanently move out of the US.
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Old 11-27-2008, 09:45 AM   #64
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Don't get me wrong - I have no issues with folks wanting to move away from the US, even to a 2nd or 3rd world country - but for me (planning a modest but comfortable ER soon) the "pure adventure" of it would be the only valid "rationalization". Not financial or social.

After DD is out of the house DW & I may very well spend half a year or more at a time in some foreign locales (on the local economy, not vacation type accomodations) - we won't be doing it to increase our standard of living though - IMO the standard of living is pretty darn good in the US, even for folks of modest means.
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Old 11-27-2008, 10:20 AM   #65
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I personally have lived in Indonesia for 9 years, ever since I retired at age 53. It would take many pages for me to tell you why I left the US and why I chose Indonesia - and part of the story is simply that fate lead me in that direction. At that time I had a DD living with me and my second wife. I recall buying a computer for Christmas - and it was a welcome gift, but nothing extraordinary either. In those days computers were more expensive.

The easiest way to put it was I grew bored with my life. When the DD graduated from college, the second wife left me, and my dog died, my business had achieved success, and I lost the race for my second term on City Council, I felt like I really needed a change. Parties and friends were not exciting... basically I was ready for a complete change of lifestyle, and still live on my $3000 per month annuity income.

The move to Indonesia has been wonderful for me. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone - I am sure some would be bored. But the weather is beautiful, and I have complete control over what I do. It has been a great time for me to read so many of the books I never had time to read before. I could hire two young woman as maids (not for sex) - so eliminated a lot of drudgery work.

I am a man of many interests - a lot of them working with my hands, such as woodcarving and tinkering with electronics. In short, my day is filled with activities of my own making. Plus, as you said, the opportunity to experience a totally different culture has been wonderfully interesting. I can travel to some very exotic areas, spend time just watching the day to day life of the village.

As you can tell, it worked out well for me - and I encourage anyone thinking of retiring (particularly if they are single) to seriously consider overseas living. From the standpoint of cost, interesting activities, and simple comfort of living, it can't be had in the US for 3 times the price. Plus the stimulus of living in a new environment is priceless (for me).

Having said all that, everyone must choose their own future after retirement. I only encourage people to look at the wide range of options that are available.
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Old 11-27-2008, 06:57 PM   #66
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Among other places I've lived in Santa Fe, Seattle, Salida, CO, and recently transferred to Tyler, TX. Tyler is a beautiful place. Can't afford to retire here though.
Hmmm. Not that I've given Tyler much thought at a retirement location, but it would not have been on my list of potentially expensive places to live.

Apparently the folks in Tyler think it's a pretty darn cheap place to live - especially for retirees:
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The East Texas Council Of Governments (ETCOG) has qualified Tyler as the first Certified Retirement City in Texas. Tyler meets high standards for retiree living, such as low crime rate, affordable housing, quality health care, abundant recreation and educational opportunities. Tyler is 16th in the nation for cost of living in Retirement Places Rated: Special Millennium Edition.

Tyler offers many financial advantages as well. Sales tax is on non-essential items only, no state income tax, and property taxes are lower than the state and national average for Texas mid to large sized cities (Texas Municipal League). In fact, Tyler consistently ranks below the national average in cost of living according to the American Chamber of Commerce Researcher’s Association.
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Old 11-27-2008, 08:42 PM   #67
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Hmmm. Not that I've given Tyler much thought at a retirement location, but it would not have been on my list of potentially expensive places to live.

Apparently the folks in Tyler think it's a pretty darn cheap place to live - especially for retirees:
Check rents on the Tyler Craigslist. Unless you are from the Northeast or the West Coast you probably won't find it that affordable. Certainly not on an $1100 a month pension. I can do so much more on that much in some very nice places overseas. But Tyler is a very nice place to live. If you like trees, hills, flowers, scenic country lanes, and big lakes it's all here.
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Old 11-27-2008, 09:03 PM   #68
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I can see where if one intends to live on an $1100 a month pension & nothing else for food, clothing, shelter, medical, & etc - a move to a third world country might be advisable.
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Old 11-27-2008, 11:23 PM   #69
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Certainly not on an $1100 a month pension.
I must have missed where you mentioned the amount you had to live on. $1100 a month is going to be tough.
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Check rents on the Tyler Craigslist. Unless you are from the Northeast or the West Coast you probably won't find it that affordable. I can do so much more on that much in some very nice places overseas. But Tyler is a very nice place to live. If you like trees, hills, flowers, scenic country lanes, and big lakes it's all here.
Top of the list on Craigslist Tyler is this pretty decent looking place: BanitaCreek1bed1 bathUpstairsAcrossFromUniversity!
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$475 / 1br - BanitaCreek1bed1 bathUpstairsAcrossFromUniversity! (Nacogdoches)

1 bed 1 bath
upstairs with balcony right above pool and above office
washer/dryer connectins
dishwasher, disposal, refrigerator, range, stainless steel sink, pantry
3 closets
sliding glass door to balcony
700 sq ft

need for leasees to take over the lease..lease ends in the end of May

Great for anyone and walking distance to the University and also a few restaurants
It is down the road a ways in Nacogdoches, but it was the first one on the list so I grabbed it.





Not a palace but cheap and decent looking.

Then I went to the Nacogdoches convention and visitors website and randomly picked a day from the event calendar. Four free events including a jazz concert at the hotel and two art events.

I think I could make a go in Nacogdoches, and probably Tyler, and probably a couple of dozen other places within a hundred miles of Tyler on 1100 smacks a month. Not that I want to, but if I had to I think I could do it.

But if you're hoping to live like better overseas - I wish you the best. For me, doing it as an adventure/change of place sort of thing would be the motive.
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Old 11-28-2008, 01:22 AM   #70
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I think I could make a go in Nacogdoches, and probably Tyler, and probably a couple of dozen other places within a hundred miles of Tyler on 1100 smacks a month. Not that I want to, but if I had to I think I could do it.

But if you're hoping to live like better overseas - I wish you the best. For me, doing it as an adventure/change of place sort of thing would be the motive.
I'm just thankful, speaking of Thanksgiving, that I have that option. Pretty certain that after rent, utilities, phone, cable, groceries, car, insurance, gas, clothes, incidentals, etc that I'd have to keep working to make up the difference my pension didn't cover. I'd rather spend my time doing what I want to do. I'll need $1500 a month to live like a king by the way. Oh, I see you edited that out, lol!
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:44 AM   #71
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Just as a comparison, in my hideaway village in Indonesia a regular house rents for $200 per month. Water is pumped from a well, electricity is subsidized by the government, and the weather is always perfect - so neither heater or air conditioner is necessary. A motorbike will get you to all points on the island and all food is purchased from a farmer's market on Sunday. Plus, no sales tax.

That's cheap living!
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:28 PM   #72
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I can see where if one intends to live on an $1100 a month pension & nothing else for food, clothing, shelter, medical, & etc - a move to a third world country might be advisable.
There are a lot of us who have to live on very little. Obviously no one in your sphere has this problem. After living in Mexico for 9 months 2 years ago, I am ready to return, as even in an area with many norte americanos, we only spent 1500 dollars/month including rent. We could have lived on a lot less if we didn't want to spend at the grocery store catering to americans. Lots of activities, festivals, concerts, and only 2 hrs to Manzanillo and 3 to Puerto VAllarta. The weather is the best in the world. Land of eternal spring. No air conditioning, no heaters. God, I miss that place. Also, no Christmas advertising, and that counts for soooooo much. Christmas there is just what it is supposed to be.
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Old 11-28-2008, 06:52 PM   #73
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There are a lot of us who have to live on very little. Obviously no one in your sphere has this problem. ....
Well, not sure what you think my "sphere" is? , but OK ....

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After living in Mexico for 9 months 2 years ago, I am ready to return, ....
Just curious why you came back & why are you readyto return? Are you talking moving there pretty much full-time permanent - or just for another 9 months?

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as even in an area with many norte americanos, we only spent 1500 dollars/month including rent. We could have lived on a lot less if we didn't want to spend at the grocery store catering to americans. ...
I'd be interested to see a breakdown of that budget in terms of what you are getting for your $ - (as opposed to stateside.)

Why did you want to spend more at "the grocery store catering to americans"?

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Lots of activities, festivals, concerts, and only 2 hrs to Manzanillo and 3 to Puerto VAllarta. The weather is the best in the world. Land of eternal spring. No air conditioning, no heaters. God, I miss that place. ...
I'm as appreciative as anybody of Mexican culture, both folkloric & contemporary, but only now & then, I wouldn't care to live it 24-7 (& I speak passable Spanish) - but that's just me, others may differ.

Now good weather - that's something I can definitely appreciate as a big +!

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Also, no Christmas advertising, and that counts for soooooo much. Christmas there is just what it is supposed to be. ...
Yet

- Christmas advertising doesn't really bother (or influence) me personally, some of it I kind of like actually.
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:01 PM   #74
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Why, pray tell, are you ready to return?

Maybe I should have stated that we are childless, and the Christmas season has always been a non event for us. We are sort of like many of our Jewish friends who like to go to Florida for the season. I am a real traditionlist regarding Christmas. It is too over hyped up here. It starts before Thanksgiving. In our little village in Mexico the Posada with the Virgin on donkey going from house to house looking for lodging was the most beautiful Christmas event I have ever seen. It touched me, and I'm not religious. If you remember what your Christmas was lkike when you were 10 years old, then this is it.
As to our spending, I don't have much information, since all was in cash, but our rent was 350, 15 for phone, 6/month for propane gas 50/mo for electricity. We has satellite for 30/mo--only the northern ABC,CBS,NBC and of course, CNBC. Water was free. Gardener incluced in rent. If we has used it, IMSS would have been 30/person/month health insurance. As it was we were still paying 1,000/mo up here to keep our insurance up--not included in 1500/mo expenses. We did to to the big city for Walmart shopping every other month. The store catering to Americans and Canadians was very small, but carried Campbell soup from the us. They also carried the Campbell soup for Mexican taste which was much cheaper, and very much better tasting. If you have a yen for Cheddar cheese, it was mucho peso, but sometimes nothing is better.
The main reason I would love to go back is the great food, the great weather, the great friends we made, and i just loved the slow pace of life, the horseback riders going by at all hours on the cobblestones, the funeral coming right by our house on the way to the cemetary, the casket in the back of a truck a band playing, and the old woman, bent over in all black full length dress and veil, following as she could---every funeral.
But, truthfully not everyone would like this life. Some came down and hated it. Some really loved it. I would not discourage anyone who is finding it hard to make ends meet to go down for a visit, or try it for a month, because it can be one way to have a comfortable retirement on a very slim penson or ss check.
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Old 11-28-2008, 07:52 PM   #75
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I have no doubt there are many fine reasons to live in Mexico as well as other 2nd & 3rd world countries - I'm just not convinced the financial argument is usually the best/greatest reason and kind of tend to believe one can live almost as cheap in the US as some of these other places if they really wanted to.

Having lived there, perhaps you can enlighten further "Mexmeme" -

Can you describe your $350 a month accomodation? How did it compare to, say the $475 apartment in Nacogdoches indicated in a previous post? What did the gardner garden? $50 a month for electricity if you didn't heat/cool doesn't sound too much cheaper than the US if it was a well insulated 1bdrm. Hot water heater gas or electric?

Was $15 phone local only - statewide - or anywhere in Mex - did/will you have a cell phone? Sat TV - includes things like History, Discovery, CNN, CNBC, SHO, HBO in English or for $30 is pretty much same as a Basic package in US? (I can watch Spanish TV but it makes my head hurt after a few hours )

Can you enlighten further about IMSS eligibility (actually the med program is IMPS is it not?) - do you have to be a citizen or married to one, have permanent residency? - pre-existing conditions? - age requirements/factors? - is it a monthly payment, or once annually for the whole year - has it gone up since you were there 2 years ago? - have you ever been hospitalized there? how was that - would you undergo hospitalization for something major/really serious, or come back to thestates - will you be dropping your US health insurance coverage this time around
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Old 11-28-2008, 08:00 PM   #76
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What a great idea. Let's have everyone who has a decent income or a business establish residency elsewhere and try to avoid taxes in the country that made their success possible. While we're at it, let's dump the entire tax burden on those who can't take advantage of such schemes. Oh, and when it comes time to collect social security ore other benefits, let's make sure we are first in line.

Sorry, either you are an American who is part of our country or you are not. If you want to live in another country, that's your right - just don't expect to come back or continue to suck off the place that made your move possible.

We pay taxes for the benefit of all, just not what you can get out of it. Moving to another country to avoid US taxes is absolute hypocrisy.
What about people who moved to another country for reasons unrelated to taxes? People who made their money and careers and lives outside the US and have no plans to move to the US in the future? Why should they be subject to US taxes at all?

You may say, hey, just give up your citizenship then. But:

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The Heroes Act of 2008 has a little bump in the road for wealthy Americans planning to renounce their US citizenship in order to save some money. Upon renouncing their citizenship, all their assets over $600K will be immediately subject to cap gains taxes as if they'd been sold:
Again, supposing those cap gains were all earned outside the US, why should the US claim a right of taxation on them? The US didn't contribute to making them possible.
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Old 11-28-2008, 08:02 PM   #77
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What about people who moved to another country for reasons unrelated to taxes? People who made their money and careers and lives outside the US and have no plans to move to the US in the future? Why should they be subject to US taxes at all?

You may say, hey, just give up your citizenship then. But:



Again, supposing those cap gains were all earned outside the US, why should the US claim a right of taxation on them? The US didn't contribute to making them possible.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:36 PM   #78
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Again, supposing those cap gains were all earned outside the US, why should the US claim a right of taxation on them? The US didn't contribute to making them possible.
I wasn't saying it was right or wrong, I was just pointing out that it was the law.
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Old 11-28-2008, 10:22 PM   #79
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"Having lived there, perhaps you can enlighten further "Mexmeme" quote

The house we rented was a 1 bedroom 1 1/2 bath casita on a larger estate on the lake. The house was typical Mexican construction with tile floors, and brick ceilings. There was a pool if we wanted it, but I'm not into that. It had a terrace and mirador. We were very comfortable.

The phone was full service, but we didn't use it for long distance. Instead, we started Vonage before we left and still have it, after given up on land line phones. We don't feel the need for cell phones.

Electricity is expensive in Mexico, but their appliances are much smaller than we are used to here. The propane was for the water heater and the only stove type there is propane gas. We filled the large tank when we first got there. It cost about 50 and was not empty when we left.

As far as I know IMSS is the health care system of Mexico and is available to anyone. As I said, we didn't sign up for it, and while we were there, we had no reason to see a doctor, so can offer no more information on that. Only what we were told by others who did have the service.

The Satellite is not American Directv or Dish. This was the old large Satellite and we could pick and chose alacart---something I wish we could do up here.

I am not advocating to go to a 2nd or 3rd world country for monetary reasons alone. But if one wanted adventure, and living very comfortably on a penson, it can be done. As I said, we were in an area with many Gringos, and most of the villagers spoke passable Spanish. If one had a grasp of the Spanish language, he or she could settle anywhere in Mexico. Just know that you will never be looked at as a real member of the town, only a visitor no matter how long you are there.
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Old 11-28-2008, 10:59 PM   #80
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[quote=mexmeme;754012 .... Just know that you will never be looked at as a real member of the town, only a visitor no matter how long you are there. [/quote]

Aaaah, not so different from a lot of small towns in the US then?
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