What did/do you do?

[nun]

Arising out of another discussion there seem to be quite a few engineers and scientists trying to FIRE and I wondered what %age of the community they make up. So here is a poll with 3 very broad categories

 

[freebird5825]

Engineer (j*b title), already FIREd.
BS Physics, almost did a Masters in EE (did 2/3 of degree reqs)

 

[W2R]

Engineering background leading into a career in physical oceanography. Not an especially high paying specialty, in general, but so what.

 

[Hobo]

Civil Engineer (Environmental specialty). Started my own business age 33, grew to 55 people, gradually sold to partners, bought real estate. Now mortgages all paid and I live on the rent held as a corporation. Retired at age 53, moved to Indonesia. Monthly income $3200 per month with Social Security soon. Great life, great way to live the last 1/3 of your life.

 

[FIREd]

Chemical Engineer turned chemist. Nanotechnology is now my area of expertise.

 

[FUEGO]

I wonder how many artists/writers will be on the path to early retirement? Without a spouse that does something high-paying or without receiving a large inheritance.

Civil engineer (transportation) currently. Maybe patent attorney or other type attorney soon. Or [-]unemployed[/-] temporarily FIREd soon.

 

[ziggy29]

I wonder how many artists/writers will be on the path to early retirement? Without a spouse that does something high-paying or without receiving a large inheritance.

If the answer is "very few," I'd be curious why that is. On one hand you might think it's because they don't get the pay and benefits to enable FIRE. But on the other hand I'd strongly suspect that people employed in the arts are people who are more likely to enjoy their w*rk and not seek as early an out as possible.

 

[nun]

If the answer is "very few," I'd be curious why that is. On one hand you might think it's because they don't get the pay and benefits to enable FIRE. But on the other hand I'd strongly suspect that people employed in the arts are people who are more likely to enjoy their w*rk and not seek as early an out as possible.

This is a good point. My FIRE plan is to volunteer at the local art house cinema and maybe work part time in a bike shop. So I'll be 50/50 art and engineering

 

[Hobo]

I wonder how many artists/writers will be on the path to early retirement? Without a spouse that does something high-paying or without receiving a large inheritance.

Civil engineer (transportation) currently. Maybe patent attorney or other type attorney soon. Or [-]unemployed[/-] temporarily FIREd soon.

From what I saw with this sub-prime mortgage mess, most Americans (including artist and writers) can't do even the most basic economic calculations. How can you expect to retire early when you can't use a spread sheet to analyze investment alternatives - especially paying mortgages?

Scientists and engineers understand these numbers like APR, and impact of inflation and internal rate of return. Without this knowledge you're lost!

 

[M Paquette]

Hmmm... Interesting weighting in those results.

So, how many shoe salesmen would be interesting in:
1) long range planning for early retirement
2) managing an investment portfolio on their own
3) conducting a poll on the topic of fields of interest among early retirees?

I suspect that the ER community is composed primarily of folks oriented toward long range planning, with a reasonable grasp of numbers and basic statistics.

Or maybe that's just me?

 

[FUEGO]

If the answer is "very few," I'd be curious why that is. On one hand you might think it's because they don't get the pay and benefits to enable FIRE. But on the other hand I'd strongly suspect that people employed in the arts are people who are more likely to enjoy their w*rk and not seek as early an out as possible

The first reason is the one I originally thought of. That is, most writers and artists just don't make a lot of money sufficient to allow saving a lot. But I see your second reason too. Perhaps they are more "living in the now" people who enjoy what they do and can't imagine not doing it. However I know a number of people who got english degrees and don't really like what they do now. They are stuck in dead end jobs and "go back to school" for something else is one of the things they may have to do to advance in a career (their thoughts, not mine).

From what I saw with this sub-prime mortgage mess, most Americans (including artist and writers) can't do even the most basic economic calculations. How can you expect to retire early when you can't use a spread sheet to analyze investment alternatives - especially paying mortgages?

Scientists and engineers understand these numbers like APR, and impact of inflation and internal rate of return. Without this knowledge you're lost!

Sure. My undergrad engineering program required coursework in economics, and a good bit of financial analysis (net present value, present value of future cash flow, discount rates, systems optimization, etc). Add that to learning how to use spreadsheets to facilitate analysis, and the whole engineering analytical thought process, and it is completely logical that engineers constitute a large proportion of FIRE'ees. That and they tend to earn a good bit of money straight out of college.

In contrast, I bet a good number of humanities degree programs don't require a lick of economics or financial coursework. I know my bachelor's degree in literature did not require any of this.

 

[calmloki]

Count me in with Hobo - real estate as a way to wealth, baby. Not an engineer, highest salary was $15k before I wandered off to work for myself making picayune amounts. No kids certainly helped with the asset amassing, but the biggest factor was buying when all wanted to sell. Kind of like now. Stocks and bonds never did it for us, we did understand that paying higher interest loans down first was the way to go - no spreadsheet required.

 

[Rustic23]

Wow! I am surprised at the results so far. There seems to be a fair amount of military on the board. They may have a eng/sci background, but that's not what they did as a primary occupation. Also surprised there are not more business majors in the group, which would increase 'other'. The small number of artist does not surprise me.

 

[FIREd]

The vast majority of ERs I know never even went to college. They just held steady jobs with benefits like a pension, saved a good chunk of their income and invested in real estate. Most would not even know how to use a spreadsheet, but they can wield a pencil like champs! With all my knowledge, I am certain that my uncle could still teach me a trick or too... He retired at 55, was a mailman all his life (his wife never worked) yet he has accumulated an impressive, multi-million dollar real estate fortune.

 

[nun]

Wow! I am surprised at the results so far. There seems to be a fair amount of military on the board. They may have a eng/sci background, but that's not what they did as a primary occupation. Also surprised there are not more business majors in the group, which would increase 'other'. The small number of artist does not surprise me.

I should have added business and military as categories too.

 

[ziggy29]

Wow! I am surprised at the results so far. There seems to be a fair amount of military on the board. They may have a eng/sci background, but that's not what they did as a primary occupation. Also surprised there are not more business majors in the group, which would increase 'other'. The small number of artist does not surprise me.

Military, of course, are far more likely to have pensions waiting for them as early as age 38. That is a huge determining factor in who can retire early, perhaps the biggest of all.

 

[Hobo]

Sure. My undergrad engineering program required coursework in economics, and a good bit of financial analysis (net present value, present value of future cash flow, discount rates, systems optimization, etc). Add that to learning how to use spreadsheets to facilitate analysis, and the whole engineering analytical thought process, and it is completely logical that engineers constitute a large proportion of FIRE'ees. That and they tend to earn a good bit of money straight out of college.

In contrast, I bet a good number of humanities degree programs don't require a lick of economics or financial coursework. I know my bachelor's degree in literature did not require any of this.

Yea, that is my pet peeve. My undergrad engineering required a language course, and several electives that were all liberal arts - like psychology (which I got a D). But none of the Liberal arts students had to take anything practical - like Engineering Economics where I learned all of the financial analysis calculations.

I wonder how many FIRE'ees will buy a new car every three or four years? I bought one.. a Firebird when I got out of college. But it is painful to borrow $20,000, and make car payments, only to discover the car is falling apart after 5 years with a very low resale value. That's $20,000 in principle and $3000 in interest that you turns worthless in 5-7 years. Stupid waste of money.

Hey great website for figuring out all this stuff.. Wolfram|Alpha Try entering, "car loan 8% interest 3 year balloon" in the search slot and it spits out a ton of great information.

 

[freebird5825]

...Scientists and engineers understand these numbers like APR, and impact of inflation and internal rate of return. Without this knowledge you're lost!

Still w*rking on that...
All I had was Business 100 in college. The rest was self-taught online and through a lot of reading. And of course you good folks and the links you provide. TY
My grasp is still fledgling at best. But give me numbers and some logic behind it and I can fly!

 

[JOHNNIE36]

Work Field: Manufacturing Engineering (automotive)
Degree: Bachelor of Science-Mechanical Engineering
FIRE: Retired 1988 after 34 years of servce. My (5) years of college counted
toward service length.

 

[FUEGO]

Yea, that is my pet peeve. My undergrad engineering required a language course, and several electives that were all liberal arts - like psychology (which I got a D). But none of the Liberal arts students had to take anything practical - like Engineering Economics where I learned all of the financial analysis calculations.

I just had this same discussion yesterday at lunch. The discussion segued into "I wonder if many politically liberal folks have taken any coursework in economics or understand the basic principles of economics". Probably a discussion best not to have on this thread or this forum!

 

[Hobo]

Still w*rking on that...
All I had was Business 100 in college. The rest was self-taught online and through a lot of reading. And of course you good folks and the links you provide. TY
My grasp is still fledgling at best. But give me numbers and some logic behind it and I can fly!

One thing engineers can't do is understand the details of accounting. I had the GI bill and went back to school for a MBA - I went just to get some money to buy a hang-glider! Never got an MBA, but I did get a hang glider. Also, I managed to struggle through Accounting. Later I learned that understanding what your accountant is talking about is really important if you are in business.

Accounting 101 is the same type of basic fundamental information as Financial Analysis - it's all cookbook. No rocket science, nothing anybody can't learn by reading a book which covers net present value, present value of future cash flow, discount rates, alternatives analysis, etc. Concepts like sunk costs are really important if you are trying to make decisions after loosing money in the market. You can't let emotions get in the way of the numbers.

 

[IndependentlyPoor]

Is this some sort of ploy to trick closet geeks to out themselves? O.K. I'll admit to being a geek and a nerd.

I guess that I am not too surprised at the results. The engineers I worked with were all tightwads. Driving a flashy car was definitely looked upon with suspicion. Expensive clothes? Fugetaboutit.

Looking back, I can see that peer pressure helped me from slipping into the standard American consumerist mode. (Well, it didn't prevent me from buying a red Alfa Romeo spider, but a young man has to have some indulgences.)

I also feel that engineering is basically a young person's game. The energy, concentration, and attention to detail it demands was O.K. for a while, but there is no way I could do it now. I will be quite happy if I never see a differential equation again.

 

[freebird5825]

...Hey great website for figuring out all this stuff.. Wolfram|Alpha Try entering, "car loan 8% interest 3 year balloon" in the search slot and it spits out a ton of great information.

Nice link. Wolfram is a familiar name to me because of their Mathematica software.
Check this out
Wolfram|Alpha Examples - Money & Finance
However, I was unable to change the fields.
Must need a license for the software?

 

[nun]

One thing engineers can't do is understand the details of accounting.

Engineers and scientists usually first encounter accounting when they move into management roles. The concepts are pretty simple, but as these simple things compound they produce complex structures.

 

[ziggy29]

I guess that I am not too surprised at the results. The engineers I worked with were all tightwads.

I'm interested in the cause-and-effect here.

I can see several different factors leading to whether or not some occupations are overrepresented or underrepresented in the FIRE realm. For example:

* How well it pays. The better it pays, the farther below your means you can live, the more you can save and invest, and the sooner you can FIRE.

* Whether or not you are covered by a good defined benefit pension plan, particularly one that provides for early retirement (say in your 50s or even earlier in some cases).

* Whether or not the occupation has a high level of "personal satisfaction." People are obviously more likely to not want to leave jobs they enjoy, even if they have reached FI.

So in a nutshell, someone who has a high paying job they dislike with a pension would be most likely to retire early, whereas someone with lesser income, no pension and a job they love may wind up dying in their job.