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Old 04-06-2016, 08:04 AM   #761
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I've been to every dealer in a 40 mile radius except one - prior experience keeps me away from them. Getting the out the door price is unbearably difficult. The thing I don't understand is why the process is so laden with misdirection and deceptive pricing. Seems to me this is a choice the seller makes.
I concede that sometimes you have to be a bit tenacious and get the details of their out-the-door price to see what is included and excluded but I didn't find it that bad. Around here there were only a handful of components... the car price + doc fee (where applicable) + sales tax + title + registration + DMV fee.

I tell them that I'm not keen on paying them hundreds of $ for them to do their own paperwork (the doc fee) but include it if they must but since I'm looking at out the door price from their competitors if they get greedy they will be at a disadvantage in getting my business.
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Old 04-06-2016, 08:11 AM   #762
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Michael, if you are a USAA or PenFedCU member, try their car buying service (it appears they both use the same process). I've used it twice and been very happy with the reduced hassle - although the finance guy still tried to talk me into add-ons. Still, a much improved process compared to walking in off the street.
I used the USAA car buying service and got three responses. Two were offers for immediate delivery, although neither actually has the car they were offering in stock and cannot commit to a firm delivery date that would meet my definition of soon, much less immediate, and all three have additional fees, ranging from $675 to $1175.

The delivery issue in easier to understand, but not the price. Unfortunately, this is consistent with past car purchases I have made here in South Florida, so I guess I have no reason to be surprised. Or whine about it, for that matter, so I'll stop now.
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Old 04-06-2016, 08:15 AM   #763
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MichaelB, here's an option. When I bought my Venza what I did was make my offer the "out of the door price" for the car that I test drove and only if I could take possession within 48 hours. In other words, I told them I was offering $xx,xxx but that was for everything, even tax, title, and license and everything else, not one penny more for a single thing.

Then it was THEIR problem to figure out all the fees and charges because they knew I wasn't paying any more than what I offered. The salesman had me write a check for the amount of my offer, and then took my check to his manager where they adjusted everything so that the check would cover it.

This was back in 2010. I don't know if I got a great deal or not, but at least I knew exactly what I was going to pay and when I could get the car.
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Old 04-06-2016, 08:39 AM   #764
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Unfortunately, this is consistent with past car purchases I have made here in South Florida, so I guess I have no reason to be surprised.
Another example of "regional collusion". I ran across a glaring example of this many years ago when I though I wanted to buy a new Toyota.

Shopping multiple dealers in the area, I learned they all had an identical package of add-ons (pin-striping, undercoating, upholstery stain treatment, VIN etching, etc.), totaling more than $1,500. Every dealer refused to sell the car without it, saying all their cars came with the "GST package" when they arrived at the dealership.

I learned that every new Toyota sold in Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma and Texas must be purchased through a Gulf States Toyota (GST) franchise, which is essentially a cartel controlling Toyota inventory. (A similar cartel controls Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and North and South Carolina Toyota inventories). It would have been considerably less expensive at the time for me to fly to New Mexico or Colorado and buy the car since that was where I'd need to go to avoid the GST package.

This racket is one of the primary reasons I've purchased only used Toyotas, never a new one.
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:13 AM   #765
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REWahoo, did this "GST package" apply even if you had ordered a new Toyota but didn't want the package? If so, then perhaps you could have complained to Toyota.
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:14 AM   #766
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Michael, if you are a USAA or PenFedCU member, try their car buying service (it appears they both use the same process). I've used USAA twice and been very happy with the reduced hassle - although the finance guy still tried to talk me into add-ons. Still, a much improved process compared to walking in off the street.
Costco has a similar service and it is rated well, though I think one can get a better price by soliciting internet bids. YMMV.
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:16 AM   #767
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I've been to every dealer in a 40 mile radius except one - prior experience keeps me away from them. Getting the out the door price is unbearably difficult. The thing I don't understand is why the process is so laden with misdirection and deceptive pricing. Seems to me this is a choice the seller makes.
Add-ons before the final sale prices have become the normal lately for almost anything.
With cars it used to be tax and license, so consistent from showroom to showroom. Airline tickets got so bad Uncle Sam required them to show the total price at booking, but they got creative and added baggage fees, seat selection fees and etc. Don't even get me started on car rentals. On my last XM radio renewal they offered me a "lowest price" ever and then added on a fixed charge per month for "artist royalties" uhh, excuse me isn't that XM's problem and we listen to the news and sports anyway. I won't be renewing XM.

I just rented a condo for a week in London at a very good price and at the final screen was hit with a little note that said, tax included in total but you will be charged a fee for electric and gas usage. Please just give me the full price upfront......
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:20 AM   #768
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REWahoo, did this "GST package" apply even if you had ordered a new Toyota but didn't want the package? If so, then perhaps you could have complained to Toyota.
I didn't try that route but from what I've learned about GST I don't think it would have made any difference. They are privately owned and evidently very, very profitable - for a reason.

Here's what Edmunds.com has to say about their pricing:

Quote:
Pricing Differences for Toyota Models

We publish Toyota's national prices, and they will be the same as the prices displayed on Toyota's website. However, new Toyota vehicles in the following states are distributed by two independent companies, Southeast Toyota (SET) and Gulf States Toyota (GST), and they both add fees to the prices of the vehicles they distribute:
  • Southeast Toyota (SET): Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina
  • Gulf States Toyota (GST): Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Texas
Any difference you see between an MSRP displayed on our site and an MSRP found at your dealer (or displayed on the regional websites of SET or GST) is likely caused by a supplemental destination charge imposed by SET or GST.

Any difference you see between an invoice price displayed on our site and an invoice price your dealer may disclose to you is likely caused by an administration fee imposed by SET and GST. It could also result from SET or GST adding additional equipment to a vehicle as compared to what is standard nationally.
https://help.edmunds.com/hc/en-us/ar...-Toyota-Models
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:32 AM   #769
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I am floored that any adult human doesn't know about GST, but then I've been living in this area most of my life and driving Toyotas. Also, some dealerships add their own extras in addition to GST (whether you want them or not), and there are prep fees. At any rate, the various fees are all the more reason to just simply make an "out of the door" offer instead of playing games with the dealership and/or getting all upset:

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MichaelB, here's an option. When I bought my Venza what I did was make my offer the "out of the door price" for the car that I test drove and only if I could take possession within 48 hours. In other words, I told them I was offering $xx,xxx but that was for everything, even tax, title, and license and everything else, not one penny more for a single thing.

Then it was THEIR problem to figure out all the fees and charges because they knew I wasn't paying any more than what I offered. The salesman had me write a check for the amount of my offer, and then took my check to his manager where they adjusted everything so that the check would cover it.

This was back in 2010. I don't know if I got a great deal or not, but at least I knew exactly what I was going to pay and when I could get the car.
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Old 04-06-2016, 10:05 AM   #770
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Posting from a hospital bed again. Monday afternoon the pain got so bad we went to the ER, they did yet another ultrasound looking for a blood clot or something to account for the source of all this pain. After doing another, they did find a psudoaneurysm. The local hospital cannot do this specialized procedure so they amublanced me down to another one in Virginia. Collectively they've tried the "wait and see if it resolves on it's own" approach, the "ultrasound-guided compression repair" (Ouch!) and tomorrow they're going to try the ultrasound-guided compression repair. If that doesn't work it is surgery. This is wearing thin and not at all what I anticipated in retirement.

OTOH, I'm grateful that I live in a part of the world where this medical care is available and that I have good insurance that will make it easily affordable for me. Apart from sporadic episodes of short duration I am in little to no pain and they give me some nice drugs to take care of it. But dagnabit, they're still refusing my takeout requests for the drugs. And no wine list with dinner, can you believe it?! Yes, I know, first world problem.

All in all though I still don't make this out to be more than a mid-range irritant/inconvenience. Yes, there is risk of anything happening in surgery, but this is almost to the level of about routine, not ground-breaking or anything, the hospital staff are great, so I'm optimistic for a good outcome and hopefully I'll be out and recovered soon, camera in hand, getting some late-spring flower photos.
It sounds like your heart and you are in good hands, Walt. Thinking about you!
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Old 04-06-2016, 10:12 AM   #771
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When we sold a car to CarMax a couple of years ago, we also looked at buying a car there although we ended up not doing it. But they gave us an out the door price on the one we were looking at. Of course, this was a used car, so there weren't any add-ons or other such nonsense. But it was only a year and a half old, with fewer than 15K miles.

We're probably going to buy another car this year, but I'm going to wait until we get back up to MD before we buy it. We've looked at cars off and on the last couple of years, and the prices seem to be better up there. But mostly the sales force seems less pushy and slimy. DW loves to play the bargain them down game. I hate it, and mostly sit there and glare and threaten to leave while she plays. I sure wish the old Saturn concept of car buying had taken off.


PS - Walt, good luck and quick recovery, sir.
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Old 04-06-2016, 10:34 AM   #772
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When we sold a car to CarMax a couple of years ago, we also looked at buying a car there although we ended up not doing it. But they gave us an out the door price on the one we were looking at. Of course, this was a used car, so there weren't any add-ons or other such nonsense. But it was only a year and a half old, with fewer than 15K miles.

We're probably going to buy another car this year, but I'm going to wait until we get back up to MD before we buy it. We've looked at cars off and on the last couple of years, and the prices seem to be better up there. But mostly the sales force seems less pushy and slimy. DW loves to play the bargain them down game. I hate it, and mostly sit there and glare and threaten to leave while she plays. I sure wish the old Saturn concept of car buying had taken off.


PS - Walt, good luck and quick recovery, sir.
In which state do you register the car and how do you deal with that?
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:01 AM   #773
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While I ultimately went local the lowest price was in another state and I was going to have to go to DMV for tax, title and registration which was another part of my reason for buying local where they handled all that stuff.

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Old 04-06-2016, 11:07 AM   #774
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While I ultimately went local the lowest price was in another state and I was going to have to go to DMV for tax, title and registration which was another part of my reason for buying local where they handled all that stuff.
Around here, the vast majority of car dealers are across the state line, and they are very accustomed to people buying in one state and registering in the other. Never a problem. The only issue anyone cares about is the state where you register it will make sure that you pay sales tax either where you bought it or where you live. They don't even care which.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:14 AM   #775
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I register the car in FL, and haven't gone through the process yet, but when we were looking at cars in MD last year I asked about it and they said there wouldn't be a problem with getting it registered for FL. Of course, they're car dealers, so I guess the proof will be in the pudding.

I'm pretty sure the sales tax will be MD, since that's where we will buy it.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:24 AM   #776
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I am floored that any adult human doesn't know about GST...:
Apparently some of us serve as 'floorers' in this world. Somebody has to do it.

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...instead of playing games with the dealership and/or getting all upset:
As a gamer yourself, you know the challenge of competing against another in a game of skill. And as far as getting all upset, whining is a basic human right - you aren't suggesting I be denied those rights are you?
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:26 AM   #777
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That's an interesting option I hadn't considered, with potential.
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:41 AM   #778
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Apparently some of us serve as 'floorers' in this world. Somebody has to do it.
Well, I guess everybody doesn't buy Toyotas every time like I do. I'll give you that.

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As a gamer yourself, you know the challenge of competing against another in a game of skill. And as far as getting all upset, whining is a basic human right - you aren't suggesting I be denied those rights are you?
No way! Whine away. As long as you don't mind if I whine now and then, too.

Like, for example, about how unbelievably stressful and exhausting it was for me to move into the house of my dreams only three miles away. It was! I'm glad I did it although it sure took a lot out of me. I'm still recovering and moving day was last July 1st. I'm almost done with the improvements and contractors.

But anyway, getting upset is part of the human experience. Imagine how bland life would be, if nobody ever got upset about anything. All we would see is blank stares from one another. I just prefer to reserve my "upset-ness" to inflict on those I like (such as forum members) and/or care about (such as my dear F) rather than on a stupid car salesman.
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:18 PM   #779
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I've bought my last 4 cars through COSTCO. Basically you get fleet rate and a no-BS fleet salesman compared to what usually happens. One of my vehicles, a 2006 Dodge Ram 4x4 shortbed with diesel engine is worth more today than what I paid for it new!! Of course, a new truck is almost double today what they charged 10 years ago....

I did all my COSTCO deals over the phone or e-mails with the dealerships involved. I even made them e-mail me the forms to sign. When I eventually went in to pick up my new car or truck, there was very little to do. They did try and sell me extended service plans at that time, trying to scare me into thinking I'd get raped on charges later. I turned it around and told 'em thanks for the warning, that I didn't realize these cars broke so often that the extended service plan was so vital and that I would not be buying the car now because of what they told me. This basically resulted in them giving me the extended service plan or I would not have finalized the transaction. I bet they don't try selling me a plan using their scare tactics again. Ha!
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:52 PM   #780
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Went Hiking to this place

I got lost and went hiking to a nearby mountain.
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