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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-29-2006, 12:00 AM   #41
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gumby
Part of what kept them in the schools was the promise of a pension.
And getting to go home in the afternoon, and getting summers off, and getting Christmas off, and getting many other holidays that most people in private industry only know about because they have to find alternate day care for their kids.

And how about the problem that the US educational system is excremental? Don't teachers figure into that somewhere?

If it weren't for the very powerful teachers' unions, k-12 would have been privatized years ago, and this problem would be nearing its solution, both as to cost and performance.

Itís the old problem- the teachers are smart enough to know that they have a very sweet deal, and that many of them couldnít come within 100 yards of duplicating it in industry or in privte schools. So they organize, and fight tooth and nail to hang on. The citizens, who fund this largesse have other things to worry about.

Plus, in many communities to be against teacherís raises is to be against America itself.

Ha
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 08:43 AM   #42
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
And getting to go home in the afternoon, and getting summers off, and getting Christmas off, and getting many other holidays that most people in private industry only know about because they have to find alternate day care for their kids.


Itís the old problem- the teachers are smart enough to know that they have a very sweet deal, and that many of them couldnít come within 100 yards of duplicating it in industry. So they organize, and fight tooth and nail to hang on. The citizens, who fund this largess have other things to worry about.
I know I'm late to this party but I felt I needed to add my voice here. I am not a teacher but I have heard the above opinion voiced over and over, primarily from people who really do not know what the teaching job entails.* They see that school ends at 3 pm and assume that is the end of the working day. Not true at all! Teachers work past the end of the school day and usually into the evenings, preparing, grading papers, etc. etc.* People see that teachers have the summers off and assume they are not working. True, some have a long vacation. But even those spend much of their summer preparing for the next year, taking continuing education classes. And many others work at other jobs to supplement their income.

Teachers spend their own money to buy school supplies.* My daughter in law furnished her second grade classroom with couches and bookshelves for a reading nook for her students. This is common!

And, most of all, teachers are motivated to become teachers not by salary or a "cushy" retirement promise, but because they enjoy the work (most of the time) and feel that sense of being useful to the community and helping children achieve educational goals. I am not a teacher but I admire those in the profession very much and resent the attempt to demean an honorable profession.

There are so many other areas in our society that are full of corruption. Why not forcus energy on that?* Bashing teachers' unions, etc. etc. is such a low blow that I had to take this opportunity to step in.
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 09:09 AM   #43
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

If you think $45,000 salary (with 11% peeled off the top for the pension fund--and a match that's less than most coporations provide) for someone with a science degree from a great school who's been working for 5 years in a suburb of Boston (expensive COL) and can look forward to raises that match but rarely exceed inflation is a great deal--then take it!
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 11:05 AM   #44
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

This same teacher pay discussion is happening simultaneously on other threads!* Must be a hot topic!

We can all try to subjectively critisize or defend teacher pay.* There are lots of sound bites to toss out either way.* But, in the end, it will be market forces that most equitably do the job of determining appropriate pay levels.*

If a school district's pay and benefit structure is attracting plentiful, qualified teachers, then the pay is adequate.* If it isn't, they better increase it.

Here in suburban Chicago, there are long lines of qualified teachers waiting for jobs.* The surplus is great enough that most semi-professional education positions, such as day care and teacher aid, are staffed by certified teachers, many with masters degrees, waiting for their chance at a teaching spot.* *It would hardly seem appropriate to up the pay scales and attract even more folks into the field.

Downstate, in rural areas, there are some spot shortages.* And, the pay is significantly lower.* What a surprise!* Maybe it's time to up those pay packages a little?



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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 12:37 PM   #45
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

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Originally Posted by youbet
If a school district's pay and benefit structure is attracting plentiful, qualified teachers, then the pay is adequate.* If it isn't, they better increase it.
Amen! And don't forget, the supply is kept artificially low by the bizarre requirement that a teacher be trained in teaching, but not necessarily very well in whatever he or she is supposed to teach. It would be like a football team hiring a coach that hadn't played football. Schools don't do that, because they care about outcomes on the field.

Plenty people might be attracted to teaching, except that it is hard for anyone with a 3 digit IQ to stand 4 years of "teacher training".

I know some people here are very intelligent very well prepared teachers. But I also personally know lots of teachers who can't even use reasonable English.

Privatize schools, or give vouchers, and 95% of the problems will disappear. Teachers and the whole bloated educational bureaucracy know this- that is why they fight it so hard.

Ha
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 02:43 PM   #46
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

I find it funny how everyone who thinks teaching is such a great gig, really has no idea.

I have taught coached three seasons which means the day ends at 6pm everyschool day, plus all day saturday, the additional money is NOT added toward pension. I worked every summer teaching summer school or painting houses. So the line teachers get the summers off and so much holiday time is a bunch of BS.


Holidays off well when you coach you work everyday except Xmas day. And get this we even worked on NEW YEARS EVE at a track meet! 7 hours that day, got home 10pm! Was responsible for 57 students, Try it !

By the way that IS why I am LEAVING NOW! 71 school days until Dec 22!

I just have had it. Sure I might take a position down here in NC but at a PRIVATE School!

Might even say screw it and work in a bookstore or whole foods!
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 02:53 PM   #47
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy888
I find it funny how everyone who thinks teaching is such a great gig, really has no idea.
Anyone who has to spend their workday telling my kid what to do...

... is underpaid.
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 03:09 PM   #48
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

I think it is a bunch of BS about salary... and work conditions..

Newguy... YOU chose to do those things... you did not have to coach (unless of course you are hired as a coach... well, then you made your decision)... You (all teachers, not just newguy) knew what the wages were when you got into the profession.. it is not like you were blindsided with... 'well, we WERE planning on paying you $100K but now we are only going to pay $50K because revenue has dropped'...

You DO only work 185 or so days vs. 230 to 250 for your salary... you do get a pension that is better than 95 to 99% of workers..

Is it a profession where you can get rich?? No... but it is not as bad as some here make it out.. or there would be NO teachers.. and again... you made an informed decision on your career path.. nobody held a gun to your head and said "TEACH"..

Oh... and the chance of getting fired is slim.. you almost have to have sex with your students... being a lousy teacher is not enough..

I would love to teach... but, I can make more money doing what I do.. so I continue to do so until I have the nest egg to leave..
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 04:06 PM   #49
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

Nobody is paid really what they are worth. Many many people work really long hard hours.

teachers or anyone gets paid what they or their union can negotiate.

You always have the option to vote with your feet if you don't like your deal.
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 04:08 PM   #50
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
Amen! And don't forget, the supply is kept artificially low by the bizarre requirement that a teacher be trained in teaching, but not necessarily very well in whatever he or she is supposed to teach. It would be like a football team hiring a coach that hadn't played football. Schools don't do that, because they care about outcomes on the field.

Plenty people might be attracted to teaching, except that it is hard for anyone with a 3 digit IQ to stand 4 years of "teacher training".
Ha,
That's a huge advantage that a private school principal has--he/she can hire a teacher who has true life experience in a subject and not care if if the person has been through the education "training." These folks often turn out to be superb teachers--and they'll do it for less money than they'd make in a public school. These (typicaly no-nonsense) teachers also like the fact that the school can easily get rid of disruptive students, and that the other parents demand it. Finally, the principal can fire teachers who aren't getting the job done. Try THAT at a public school. Qualified, conscientious teachers love working in an environment like that.


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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 04:14 PM   #51
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

NewGuy -- don't let the "experts" here get you down. You're a good man to teach in an inner-city highschool -- I doubt that many people could do what you do.

All the best in your new activities . . .
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 04:45 PM   #52
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

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NewGuy -- don't let the "experts" here get you down. You're a good man to teach in an inner-city highschool -- I doubt that many people could do what you do.
I taught 8th grade science for a semester and was a sub off and on for a couple of years in inner city Chicago in the ealry 70s. I had several friends who taught there as well. It is a tough job and most of us quickly moved on to other easier and more lucrative pursuits.

I agree with other posters that teachers don't merit special sympathy - we all choose our paths - but the work can be difficult and many teachers are very talented.
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 05:29 PM   #53
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
I think it is a bunch of BS about salary... and work conditions..

Newguy... YOU chose to do those things... you did not have to coach (unless of course you are hired as a coach... well, then you made your decision)... You (all teachers, not just newguy) knew what the wages were when you got into the profession.. it is not like you were blindsided with... 'well, we WERE planning on paying you $100K but now we are only going to pay $50K because revenue has dropped'...

You DO only work 185 or so days vs. 230 to 250 for your salary... you do get a pension that is better than 95 to 99% of workers..

Is it a profession where you can get rich?? No... but it is not as bad as some here make it out.. or there would be NO teachers.. and again... you made an informed decision on your career path.. nobody held a gun to your head and said "TEACH"..

Oh... and the chance of getting fired is slim.. you almost have to have sex with your students... being a lousy teacher is not enough..

I would love to teach... but, I can make more money doing what I do.. so I continue to do so until I have the nest egg to leave..
I never said I was gonna get rich, yes I knew what I was getting into, getting laid off 3 times last one hired is the first to go during budget problems. So I end up 20 years ago in Newark. Yes I coached and painted so I could pay the mortgage and raise the kids and help with college and medical school.

All I was saying is that the PENSION was not a choice. That the numbers that were given were all fine UNTIL the gov, Christy whitman raided our system, underfunded it and then was appointed to the BUSH CABINET.

I am just glad that my pension is not going to be taken.
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 05:37 PM   #54
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy888
I never said I was gonna get rich, yes I knew what I was getting into, getting laid off 3 times last one hired is the first to go during budget problems. So I end up 20 years ago in Newark. Yes I coached and painted so I could pay the mortgage and raise the kids and help with college and medical school.

All I was saying is that the PENSION was not a choice. That the numbers that were given were all fine UNTIL the gov, Christy whitman raided our system, underfunded it and then was appointed to the BUSH CABINET.

I am just glad that my pension is not going to be taken.
I am glad also..

I am not saying teachers are 'bad'.. which it might appear in my post... my mom and sister were teachers... and good..
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 05:50 PM   #55
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

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Originally Posted by Texas Proud
I am glad also..

I am not saying teachers are 'bad'.. which it might appear in my post... my mom and sister were teachers... and good..
Its all good Thanks, I really am pumped, I must drive 500 miles this weekend back to NJ to finish the next 16 weeks.

Labor day weekend.

Woopie, did ya just see the confetti fall on my head!

Have a great weekend everyone!
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 05:55 PM   #56
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

During a period of being "forced ERed" I was a long term substitute teacher position. *In comparison to a "real job" there wasn't any real stress. *It was actually lots of fun. *There was stress but it was mostly the ability to "manage the situation" with the student(s). *I appreciated the kids wanting to learn and I learned to neutralize disruptions from the ones that didn't. *I did my bit at the high school level so I didn't think I had any business trying to "inspire" anyone. *By then, they had made their own way.

I thought about becoming "certified" but I fortunately got a real job at about 3X the money. *That will speed up my real ER by several years. *I've actually thought about getting certified to have a low stress job with lots of time off in ER. *It would solve the health insurance issue which is the only reason I'm still working.
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 07:54 PM   #57
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

I agree that those bums should get real about their jobs.* Most nurses/teachers/city workers/firemen (they only work a few days a month and get paid to sleep!) food servers ( avoid income taxes on tens of thousands of dollars in tips a year) police..........wait, I lost track of who we're trashing.*

Peck..Peck...Peck!

We're always so anxious to tear down out neighbor to build ourselves up!* Anybody who is not making 25-30% of the median price of housing in their area who holds a full time job that requires a college degree or equivilent IS underpaid.

Sheep! Sheep! Sheep!* Focus on the real problem.*

IMHO
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 08:41 PM   #58
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

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Focus on the real problem.*
IMHO
I would say that our disastrous and expensive education system is definitely one of the real problems, though obviously not the only one.

It isnít only that we are throwing money down a rat hole, but that we are failing to educate a large part of a generation.

But of course, you are certainly entitled to your humble opinion.*

Ha
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 09:39 PM   #59
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

Problem? What problem? Best educated crop of youngsters ever!! Smart as whips, they are!! Nothing to see here . . .move along. Please just pay your taxes and leave this to the experts.

Umm--okay.
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah
Old 08-31-2006, 09:41 PM   #60
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Re: Wow! Wild! OOfah

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Problem?* What problem?* Best educated crop of youngsters ever!!* Smart as whips, they are!!* Nothing to see here . . .move along.
Yeah... and I wonder how often they balance their checkbooks...
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