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Old 04-11-2013, 08:16 AM   #201
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I don't want companies that I invest in to pay higher than market rates for salaries.
+1; but I agree with Hamlet's comment that shareholders (including institutions) have little practical ability to evaluate or control such issues.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:49 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by christrong View Post
Totally agree. I always tell people to get an "ing" degree. Engineering, nursing...etc. When you have an "ing" degree you can open the paper and look for a job. When you have an "ology" degree (anthropology, sociology) its a bit less defined.
It's good advice only if the person is interested in the subject matter of the "ing" degree. IME, engineering is a damn tough way to make a living if you don't like the subject matter (assuming you manage not to flunk out of engineering school, which is itself no easy feat). Plus, it's still no guarantee of a job: I've seen my share of engineer layoff rounds. The people who stayed employed? Management, of course, and most of them didn't have engineering degrees.
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Old 04-12-2013, 10:50 AM   #203
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I am 36 - firmly in the Gen X crowd

I don't have a private pension

I am not a tradesman. I work in the hospitality industry. I have 4 peers that work in my area.. only one (out of the five of us) has a college degree and we are all within 5 years of age. We all average low six figures. We all share one trait - work ethic.
OK. Let me ask you this: Would you tell your kids to skip college ? Anyway, back in the 1950s and 1960s, you could earn a decent wage without a degree. If you live in places like San Francisco and New York, a high school diploma ain't going to cut it. You'll be working until you die. 99% of the time, you're gonna need that degree.
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Old 04-12-2013, 06:36 PM   #204
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OK. Let me ask you this: Would you tell your kids to skip college ? Anyway, back in the 1950s and 1960s, you could earn a decent wage without a degree. If you live in places like San Francisco and New York, a high school diploma ain't going to cut it. You'll be working until you die. 99% of the time, you're gonna need that degree.
I will let my kids decide whether or not they attend college. The answers I provide to their inquiries about heading to college, will factor upon their motivation to attend/not attend college.
There is no need to live in a metropolitan area to make a decent living and/or FIRE. In fact with the cost of living so high in those areas, I would think it might be counter productive to live there and automatically expect FIRE. (But I don't live there, so I can't say for sure)
I think there is a stigma, attached to "must attend college to be successful". I agree if one wants to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc. Yes - please go to college. But college isn't a prerequisite to be successful in life. (However you may measure success)
There are many life skills (not necessarily learned in college) that have helped me, and many others, be successful in life without a college degree. Not to mention, starting off my professional career with $0 in student loans.
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Old 04-12-2013, 06:40 PM   #205
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Totally agree. I always tell people to get an "ing" degree. Engineering, nursing...etc. When you have an "ing" degree you can open the paper and look for a job. When you have an "ology" degree (anthropology, sociology) its a bit less defined.
How about physical therapist, computer scientist, occupational therapist? There are lots of good jobs for degrees that don't end in ing.
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Old 04-12-2013, 07:15 PM   #206
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How about physical therapist, computer scientist, occupational therapist? There are lots of good jobs for degrees that don't end in ing.
Add "ist" to the list?
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Old 04-12-2013, 08:49 PM   #207
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Add "ist" to the list?
Because your ist is on my list...
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:38 PM   #208
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It is the very large shareholders like these fund companies and pension funds that I am talking about.

And you may think they are rubber stamps -- but if the management said "business is so good that we are going to pay our employees 20% above market and we'll still post record earnings", do you think they would be a rubber stamp? I'd say they are a rubber stamp because the management knows what the institutional shareholders want them to do -- take advantage of a terrible job market to give your workers a worse deal, no matter how profitable you'd be otherwise.
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I'm somewhat ambivalent about this. I don't like the trend of increasing income inequality. But at the same time, I don't want companies that I invest in to pay higher than market rates for salaries.
I agree with photoguy. Any corp that decided to pay 20% more just because they could is going to go down the tubes - it's just bad business. I would not want to invest in them.

Now, if they said 'We realize that our exceptional profits are due to some exceptional employees, and we are going to make every effort to identify those employees, and do everything we can to retain them and keep them exceptional, including salary, benefits, flexibility, challenging assignments, recognition...' , that would be good business.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. You have plans to ER, so that makes you exceptional among your peers. So is it reasonable to expect you to pay 20% more at the grocery store, just because you can? Would your 'shareholders' (you and DW) approve that?

-ERD50
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:52 PM   #209
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It certainly means I better be an above average tipper, and happily pay the neighbor kid what he asks for when he comes around looking to shovel snow or mow lawns.

I also think we'd all be better off if more companies approached compensation like Costco, rather than like Walmart.

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Let's put the shoe on the other foot. You have plans to ER, so that makes you exceptional among your peers. So is it reasonable to expect you to pay 20% more at the grocery store, just because you can? Would your 'shareholders' (you and DW) approve that?

-ERD50
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Old 04-13-2013, 05:13 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by JoshTrent View Post
I think there is a stigma, attached to "must attend college to be successful". I agree if one wants to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc. Yes - please go to college. But college isn't a prerequisite to be successful in life. (However you may measure success)
There are many life skills (not necessarily learned in college) that have helped me, and many others, be successful in life without a college degree. Not to mention, starting off my professional career with $0 in student loans.
Agreed. I work with some very successful folks who chose not to go to college. Good jobs in aerospace, fisheries, healthcare, and others.

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Old 04-13-2013, 06:34 PM   #211
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Are they under 30?

There is a big difference between hiring an experienced worker without a college degree and hiring a young person without one.

Most of the over 40+ crowd are essentially grandfathered into jobs that for new hires would require a college degree.

My field (network engineering) didn't require a degree when I started 15 years ago (I did happen to have one). It was new, and many of the people who started working in it were people who didn't have degrees. However, someone new is going to require a degree related to networking to even be considered for most positions in the field now.

For better or for worse, Corporate America requires a degree from new workers for just about any white collar job that is going to have substantial pay.

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Agreed. I work with some very successful folks who chose not to go to college. Good jobs in aerospace, fisheries, healthcare, and others.

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Old 04-13-2013, 06:40 PM   #212
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Mid thirties mostly. 10-12 years on the job.
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:17 PM   #213
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i saw this in atlanta suburbs last weekend. the late 30s folks are not only affluent but many had their children at the restaurants too. one wonders if it is possible that they are saving any money cause it seems they spend whatever they have coming in .. just like i did when i was their age.
Atlanta has the best ratio of hosing cost to income that you'll find in the country, high income and really cheap housing. The consumers have to find other ways to blow their money
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Just in response to the original sentiment.
Old 04-16-2013, 09:52 PM   #214
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Just in response to the original sentiment.

Being born in the early/mid 1990s, I'm somewhere where of genY and the iGen blur, and I'd say I don't share those feelings at all, nor do many of my peers. Our feelings may not reflect the statistics, and the statistics often don't seem to represent our feelings in a true manner either.

Our generation has constantly been fed great sentiments about being individuals, being ourselves, and not feeding into whatever other people sell us. This theme is also pushed by the constantly rising rates of innovation and entrepreneurship thrown around us. Leaving school, I never once thought of going and working for some huge company for an extended period of time, so when asked on any surveys if I ever would, expected to, or hoped to, my answer was a resounding no.

That had nothing to do with poor hopes for the economy and everything to do with high hopes for myself. At my high school, it was more common to hear talk of what business or start up you were going to create when you got out than what college you were going to. I think a lot of our statistics are misrepresented because we've been raised with the mindset of everyone being an important individual, who can change the world by working to innovate things, create our own business models or ideas or ways of doing things.

After high school, I worked at an established company for a short period of time and went to school for a short period of time before I decided that neither were for me and started freelancing my own work from home.

I don't have low hopes at all, but that could very well be a social factor of being surrounded by teachers and students who consistently pushed each other to forge our own paths instead of finding another one set up for us somewhere. My hopes are very high, for myself and everyone around me, and the amazing opportunities we have in a globalized world to do pretty much whatever our minds can come up with.

I won't say I have faith in the stock market or gains to support me, but I very much have faith in myself, my ideas, and the power of putting my work into whatever project I'm going into.

Obviously this is just the general feeling of my area and my school, which, for demographic purposes was a mix of Navy and other military children, wealthy beach-dwellers, a fairly large portion of first generation immigrants, and the run down part of town outside of the Navy base where I came from.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:10 PM   #215
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Being born in the early/mid 1990s, I'm somewhere where of genY and the iGen blur, and I'd say I don't share those feelings at all, nor do many of my peers. Our feelings may not reflect the statistics, and the statistics often don't seem to represent our feelings in a true manner either.

Our generation has constantly been fed great sentiments about being individuals, being ourselves, and not feeding into whatever other people sell us. This theme is also pushed by the constantly rising rates of innovation and entrepreneurship thrown around us. Leaving school, I never once thought of going and working for some huge company for an extended period of time, so when asked on any surveys if I ever would, expected to, or hoped to, my answer was a resounding no.

That had nothing to do with poor hopes for the economy and everything to do with high hopes for myself. At my high school, it was more common to hear talk of what business or start up you were going to create when you got out than what college you were going to. I think a lot of our statistics are misrepresented because we've been raised with the mindset of everyone being an important individual, who can change the world by working to innovate things, create our own business models or ideas or ways of doing things.

After high school, I worked at an established company for a short period of time and went to school for a short period of time before I decided that neither were for me and started freelancing my own work from home.

I don't have low hopes at all, but that could very well be a social factor of being surrounded by teachers and students who consistently pushed each other to forge our own paths instead of finding another one set up for us somewhere. My hopes are very high, for myself and everyone around me, and the amazing opportunities we have in a globalized world to do pretty much whatever our minds can come up with.

I won't say I have faith in the stock market or gains to support me, but I very much have faith in myself, my ideas, and the power of putting my work into whatever project I'm going into.

Obviously this is just the general feeling of my area and my school, which, for demographic purposes was a mix of Navy and other military children, wealthy beach-dwellers, a fairly large portion of first generation immigrants, and the run down part of town outside of the Navy base where I came from.
You are exactly what I am thinking about. You are the iGen.. where motivation meets innovation.. you will be a leader in your generation. You aren't interested in video games and social media.. you want to move towards something productive. You don't carry a sense of entitlement. Quite honestly, I am impressed with your language skills. There is no gr8 or OIC...
Carry on...
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