Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-25-2012, 05:40 PM   #21
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 46
I think part of this has to do with us as employers and our crazy need to "coddle" the younger generation. How many meetings/presentations have you been in when an HR-type PowerPoint has been shown explaining how we have to change to accommodate the "new" workforce. Don't be too confrontational. Respect their need for a work/life balance. Accommodate their need to be seen as unique. Lower your expectation of "business casual".... And Here is the latest - we have to accommodate them bringing their own technology to work. This generation is SO MUCH further advanced than us technology wise that we need to support THEIR choice in technology brand and connect and support it within our IT systems.

It is driving me crazy. If they want a job and advance in mega corp - come in early, stay late, dress to impress, and suck up to me just like I had to do for my boss 15 years ago!!! ...Then I will see you want the job, will do what it takes for the company to be successful, and look for further opportunities for you.
__________________

__________________
UnderTheRadar is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-25-2012, 06:32 PM   #22
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
braumeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern Kentucky
Posts: 8,591
And stay off my lawn !!!
__________________

__________________
braumeister is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 07:06 PM   #23
Full time employment: Posting here.
ShortInSeattle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 517
I don't mind a little coddling, so long as we all get the benefits. Jeans at work? Work via Skype? Count me in.


SIS
__________________
ShortInSeattle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 07:10 PM   #24
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by rescueme View Post

But what do I know? I'm somewhat like Bill Gates (not as wealthy, of course). However we both did not complete college (although he did get an honorary doctorate in 2007) but we still were able to get by on our wits, rather than a piece of paper...
But let's not forget Gates's good connections: father well-connected lawyer in DC, mother personal friend of chairman of IBM, or the one million dollar trust fund that he had when he dropped out of Harvard. It's not as though he pulled himself up by his bootstraps.
__________________
Khufu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 07:27 PM   #25
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan
..... I think as a general rule one if one is going to attend college it should be with a specific purpose leading to a definable skill that will result into an employable situation....

I went to college with some idea of things I liked, but no idea how that translated into specific careers. Most of my friends were in the same situation. Aside from a few clearly understood professions (teacher, fireman, librarian, doctor, lawyer, ...) we had not much idea even of what the possibilities were. Among my close friends in college, none of us ended up in a career we learned specific skills for in college, and most of us ended up in fields different from our major. But we all kept trying until we found jobs we could do, and many of us kept working at school until we got a degree, although a few took a decade to do it. No one drifted into work as a barista or ended up chronically unemployed. Perhaps we were lucky, but there were plenty of recessions and downturns. I think we didn't think there was much safety net, so we had to find something, anything, no matter how much work we had to do, and if that meant a lot of work, then that is what we did.

In this article, I find it fascinating that the support these students received in High School was key to getting them into position to apply for college, but once there, there was no support to help them understand the opportunity or financial aid they were being offered. Many of the stories hinge on giving up or making paperwork mistakes that end up having profound effects. I found counseling support and academic guidance was terribly lacking in college as well. Perhaps the programs that define success as getting their students INTO college should consider redefining success as getting their students to graduate from college.
__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 07:46 PM   #26
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
photoguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by azphx1972 View Post
Do young dreamers agree with the article? I feel that my generation (X) hasn't had it as good as the baby boomers, but I don't think we're struggling as much as Gen Y. It's my perception that things seem particularly bleak for them due to soaring education costs and increased competition for the fewer available good paying jobs.
I don't think it's just your perception. Education costs and job availability can be quantified and there's no doubt in my mind that Gen Y has it tougher than gen X. Education costs have been rising faster than inflation for a long time and the job situation is dismal. Just imagine the difference in opportunity for a recent grad compared to a student seeking work during the internet boom.

UC school tuition is something like 12k now but 20 years ago it was only about 4-5k (inflation adjusted). For someone without significant family resources, this is a very large burden.

There is definitely still opportunity and of course the determined/lucky will succeed. But I think if one looks at the overall environment, gen y is facing significantly greater headwinds.
__________________
photoguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 09:54 PM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by photoguy View Post
I don't think it's just your perception. Education costs and job availability can be quantified and there's no doubt in my mind that Gen Y has it tougher than gen X. Education costs have been rising faster than inflation for a long time and the job situation is dismal. Just imagine the difference in opportunity for a recent grad compared to a student seeking work during the internet boom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by photoguy View Post
UC school tuition is something like 12k now but 20 years ago it was only about 4-5k (inflation adjusted). For someone without significant family resources, this is a very large burden.
There is definitely still opportunity and of course the determined/lucky will succeed. But I think if one looks at the overall environment, gen y is facing significantly greater headwinds.
No doubt about it. But people love to say “I and the people I know are all doing fine”. Well duh, one meets these friends and acquaintances at work or in school or in their children's schools. People here are very money oriented, many are engineers or military or other well paying callings that happen to be in good demand, partly because of the defense industry and our wars. Not so strangely, these people and their friends are doing well. Not to mention that not many people who are struggling are even here writing about their lives.

But watch political trends, watch data about unemployment and underemployment among the young- it is significantly more difficult for them than it has been in the US since the Great Depression. And there is no obvious answer on the horizon either. If Bernanke were going to get the economy going I think it would have at least begun by now, but it is not happening.

We ended the depression last time by having a nice big war that needed lots of cannon fodder. Helps unemployment figures a lot if you draft huge numbers of young men and then get a good number of them killed. We cannot even turn to this now. I have no doubt there will be wars, maybe not directly involving us, but look for drones and robots and small elite forces if we do continue getting involved in wars around the world. So do not expect much help with unemployment from this quarter.

I don't decide that young people are all doing fine by looking at my kids and their friends. They aren't working as bartenders or baristas, and they aren't drawing unemployment-but plenty of young people are. It isn't satisfied workers and citizens who produced the Occupy Movements, that are only quiescent because it is winter and cold outside.

Almost 10 years ago I wrote on this board that I did not think that a populous, militaristic, diverse nation spanning a continent and having the world's reserve currency could possibly thrive with very small employment in manufacturing. I still think this is true. We can't all be doctors and lawyers and attorneys, and it's a good thing because someone needs to produce tradable goods.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 10:38 PM   #28
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Ha, I have to wonder: the manufacturing sector looks to me to be going to through the same changes the ag sector went through decades ago. Increasing production with ever shrinking workforce, ultimately resulting in a sector that has small employment and massive output. What does a post-industrial society look like? We were told years ago that we would have flying cars, robot butlers and lots of leisure time in prosperity. Perhaps it simply means that a lot of people end up underemployed or on the dole.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 11:07 PM   #29
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 404
Maybe increased automation will mean there is no alternative other than wealth redistribution. Either that or a wealthy class living in seclusion, while barbarians roam the streets.
__________________
ACC USN-(Ret)
BLS53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 11:26 PM   #30
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by azphx1972 View Post
Do young dreamers agree with the article? I feel that my generation (X) hasn't had it as good as the baby boomers, but I don't think we're struggling as much as Gen Y.
I'm no young dreamer, but I think this is a typical article full of statistical cherry-picked data mining-- with a personal anecdote or two thrown in to support their pre-determined bias, and written on deadline.

Next week we'll read another article that talks about how good Gen X has it, but they're all a bunch of slacker entitled whiners who don't appreciate their opportunities.

Then we'll read one about how the enlightened Gen X & Gen Y are going to revolutionize the workforce with enhanced tech, telecommuting, and true work-life balance... just as soon as they can clear those deadwood Boomers out of the corner offices where they've barricaded themselves.

And the week after that we'll read articles that explain how (1) the Boomers won't be able to retire until they're 82 years old, and (2) the Boomers have ruined it for every following generation.

Did I miss a topic?
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 11:28 PM   #31
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,526
Ha, I see what you are saying about a self-selected group of posters here that have a certain orientation, and that we also all tend to have friends of a certain self selected type.

I felt like reminiscing a bit and looked over my ~200 facebook friends to see if I could find these Gen Y victims of circumstance that were having a rough go at it. My earlier assumptions were basically confirmed - not a whole lot of tales of sadness.

The best I could do was find around 8 people who can best be described as "aspiring artists" (a dancer/actress, a movie producer, a number of painters, jewelry maker/crafter, a photographer). Excepting one, they all have jobs that pay enough for them to get by (2 work at fresh market or whole foods or something, 1 is a barista / cupcake sales professional, others have similar low paid service employment). 2 of those aspiring artists will probably make a living at their art at some point, the others don't appear to be on that trajectory. They all do what they want and seem to live comfortably, although who wouldn't want a cushier job with more money?

The only guy I know (among my self selected FB "friends") that has hit hard times was a guy that barely finished high school, never went to college, did a few years at a max security state prison for cocaine trafficking and distribution, and since serving his debt to society he has had a hard time finding good stable employment (wonder why?). Last time I saw him he had just lost his job as a temp laborer at a landscaping nursery, his 20 year old minivan was barely running, and he was grabbing a bite at Taco Bell with his family on the way to dropping his wife off at her housekeeping job at a local hotel. The guy's life is going to be full of hard times regardless of the economy.

I know 1 person that works in a "factory". He makes $20/hr plus time and a half overtime working the night shift at a medical products specialty printing/labeling/warehousing gig. Not bad for no college education.

But that's not to say the other people I know aren't involved in the production of physical things. IP attorneys, infrastructure engineers, programmers, MD's or phds working in pharmaceutical research, nuke plant engineer, computer chip designer, industrial power equipment logistics engineer. Many of the rest are providing services (mostly medical, educational, or legal). I don't think anyone I know is wishing we could have some magical manufacturing renaissance where they could work 12 hour shifts operating a machine in an uncomfortable factory environment instead of whatever they are doing right now. Except maybe that guy that's an ex-con and can't keep a job.
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 11:29 PM   #32
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Ha, I have to wonder: the manufacturing sector looks to me to be going to through the same changes the ag sector went through decades ago. Increasing production with ever shrinking workforce, ultimately resulting in a sector that has small employment and massive output. What does a post-industrial society look like? We were told years ago that we would have flying cars, robot butlers and lots of leisure time in prosperity. Perhaps it simply means that a lot of people end up underemployed or on the dole.
Very good observation Brewer. That is what I am afraid of.

I have no idea how this will turn out, but there is going to be meaningful political unrest, and how it will shake out is obscure to me. I wonder if there is any country with a big group that is on the dole, who will never really work productively, and who will not see the dissolution of their families, and the dole payments basically used to give a steady floor to whatever they can make from crime?

This is also going to require very high taxation of those who can produce, which may not work economically even if it is accepted politically. Or perhaps higher corporate taxes, but then we are disadvantaged in world trade, which is also hypercompetitive. I think there is no guarantee that there is in fact a solution. In Saturday's WSJ Mr. Abe was complaining that Japan needs to see the yen depreciate against other world currencies, and therefore than the US and the Euro block should be prevented from trying to get their currencies down. Say what? I believe that the last time we heard this kind of talk was in the 30s.

Evolution did not design people to lie around and feel like failures.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 11:30 PM   #33
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS53 View Post
Maybe increased automation will mean there is no alternative other than wealth redistribution. Either that or a wealthy class living in seclusion, while barbarians roam the streets.
What if a lot more of us get education and then get jobs learning how to build better machines, or design software to better manage these machines, or learn how to better manage the maintainers of these machines, or reduce the inputs required to operate and maintain these machines, or...
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 11:37 PM   #34
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
Quote:
I have to wonder: the manufacturing sector looks to me to be going to through the same changes the ag sector went through decades ago. Increasing production with ever shrinking workforce, ultimately resulting in a sector that has small employment and massive output. What does a post-industrial society look like?
This idea that increased efficiency and automation would improve quality of life and allow people to work ever shorter hours and enjoy equivalent or improved quality of life has been around for 50 years. Each step up in productivity surprisingly doesn't end in more leisure, but in people striving for ever higher standards of living. Houses are larger than ever, electronics and home appliances are more capable than ever, yet we always seem to want more than we had before. If there really is a post-manufacturing economy developing (automated production delivers unlimited goods at ever lower prices and labor required) there is likely to be similar adjustment. But what isn't clear is what all the people will do for paid work to buy these things.
__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 08:13 AM   #35
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,038
I think a shorter work week would go a long way to reducing unemployment. Too many employers are working the employes they have 60 hours a week. They could have had two doing 30 and both would have had a better life. Maybe a little less money for one but a lot more than 0 for the other.
__________________
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.
Lazarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 08:30 AM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Amethyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,875
Nords's description of the "what it's like out there" article cycle reminds me of the way women's magazines have been structured since before I was old enough to read: "Decadent chocolate dessert recipes...How to lose 5 pounds in one week....How to make yourself look desirable to some guy...The virtues of not tying yourself down to some guy...."

There are only so many topics, and an awful lot of competing periodicals and blogs. No wonder every topic gets recycled.

Amethyst

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
I
And the week after that we'll read articles that explain how (1) the Boomers won't be able to retire until they're 82 years old, and (2) the Boomers have ruined it for every following generation.

Did I miss a topic?
__________________
If you understood everything I say, you'd be me ~ Miles Davis
'There is only one success – to be able to spend your life in your own way.’ Christopher Morley.
Amethyst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 09:55 AM   #37
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
What if a lot more of us get education and then get jobs learning how to build better machines, or design software to better manage these machines, or learn how to better manage the maintainers of these machines, or reduce the inputs required to operate and maintain these machines, or...
All well and good if everyone had the aptitude for technical fields. Generally one's future in careers as you describe, is determined early on, by their performance in Introductory Algebra. The majority of the population can't cut it academically in math and science based careers. If they could, everyone would be a doctor or engineer. This has always been true, and it isn't going to change now because of an evolving workplace.

It's equivalent to saying we could have more NFL teams, if everyone would just try harder playing high school football.
__________________
ACC USN-(Ret)
BLS53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 12:52 PM   #38
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,382
This entire thread is strange. Unemployment stats are what they are, people's variously motivated anecdotal testimony doesn't really affect that, though we seem to want to believe that it does. Now if you believe that employment statistics are being manipulated to make them look worse,.... Why?


Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 01:11 PM   #39
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLS53 View Post
I don't know. I came of age in the early 1970's, and I never recall a time when we had enough jobs for the entire working age population. The difference back then is most of us would settle for whatever career we could get into, and we made that decision by age 25, and got on with our lives.

The difference I see today with Gen Y, is they've been told they were winners all of their life, and now they won't settle for anything less than a high end position in some glamorous field, of which they have a miniscule chance of obtaining. They keep the dream alive well into their 30's, often living at home, with full parental financial and moral support. There comes a time when you have to accept you're ordinary, and go about your life accordingly, without seeing yourself as a victim.
I tend to agree.
Back when I hit the workforce (1971) I was already being told to 'forget about the American Dream', that SS only had 10 years to go (1981?!!), that the middle class was dead and that we should expect less from the world.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Have said that, I have encountered several people who are telling me that their employers would be putting them on "less than 40 hours" in order to get around "coming regulations".

Turn it around, and you can see a world where everyone works part time, has good HC and spends their free time in caffe's sipping cappucinos. Maybe less is more.
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 01:20 PM   #40
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Turn it around, and you can see a world where everyone works part time, has good HC and spends their free time in caffe's sipping cappucinos. Maybe less is more.
Fine with me, as long as I am not the ones who have to change diapers of the geezers in nursing homes, or the ones who pick the coffee bean, either off the plants or the civet droppings.
__________________

__________________
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:26 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.