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Old 04-02-2013, 07:38 PM   #121
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I don't think we are discussing wealth inequality at all. We are saying that people, young and not so young, who have the skill set that is demanded by the market are prospering, and those who do not, maybe a bit less prosperity.

Is this unexpected, or new and different? If I studied basketball in school and insisted on playing basketball for a living, I would have had exactly $0 in lifetime income.

People who go to school and study English had better be ready to do something entirely different for a living, and display some flair and entrepreneurship in their to approach making their livelihoods.

But more likely they would just complain about income inequality and occupy something.

Ha
Well yeah, wasn't trying to change the subject, but the realities of being less of the pie to go around, means that whatever jobs will be available in the coming years before retirement, may well be very, very different from what exist today, and that includes some of the disciplines that were considered sacrosanct even a few years ago. Already mentioned was architecture, and in my son's case, the law. Today's lowest unemployment rate is in nursing, but who can guess whether this may change with advanced technology and a shift in medical education towards more specialization and less general practice?

I totally agree that the market will dictate the successful professions, but who would have guessed that all of the Harvard Business or Mathematics majors who were all the rage five or six years ago (for the banking industry) would now be looking for other jobs. Ten years ago, geology was the coming profession, and now much less important. Do we have enough IT people? Will lobbyists become the darlings of industry? Will the teachers who were lured to the profession by solid tenure and pension plans continue to be part of the stable middle class?

The entertainment business (being whatever people pay to see) including sports, music and the theater, which offers some of the best 'salaries', but will this continue if the economy eases?

Just how does one decide which profession to select, or... how to select a four to six year educational program that will prepare for a profession that will be stable for the next 25 to 50 years. (considering that Gen X may span current ages 10 to 30?)

The reason I posted the video on the wealth, was to point up the difference between the optimal, the perceived, and the actual... If the chart is wrong, or if the trend should somehow reverse, and a return to relative posterity is in the near future, then the path to future professions will certainly be different. In the meantime, I am thankful that I don't have to guide young persons... first as to whether to spend the money or go into debt for education, and second which discipline to enter that might reasonably provide financial security.

With an income of 30 to 40K, a 100+K student loan could be a rocky start for early retirement.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:43 PM   #122
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the realities of being less of the pie to go around
The pie has not significantly shrunk, although with globalization it has to be shared with more people (personally, I don't see that as a bad thing).

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considering that Gen X may span current ages 10 to 30
While I appreciate that the beginning and end dates of each generation are somewhat subjective, I thought that it was generally accepted that Generation X was born from appropriately 1963-1966 to approximately 1980-1983: which translates to current ages ~30 to ~50, no?
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:45 PM   #123
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The pie has not significantly shrunk, although with globalization it has to be shared with more people (personally, I don't see that as a bad thing).

While I appreciate that the beginning and end dates of each generation are somewhat subjective, I thought that it was generally accepted that Generation X was born from appropriately 1963-1966 to approximately 1980-1983: which translates to current ages ~30 to ~50, no?
I believe, from context, they meant "Gen Y" being 10-30.
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Old 04-04-2013, 10:26 PM   #124
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I'm Gen X at 42 and call the 20-somethings millennials. Ok sometimes I call them unicorns, since they believe they are special and magical beings.
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Old 04-04-2013, 11:12 PM   #125
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Just how does one decide which profession to select, or... how to select a four to six year educational program that will prepare for a profession that will be stable for the next 25 to 50 years. (considering that Gen X may span current ages 10 to 30?)
My view is biased from my experience. I believe you don't prepare for a specific profession - you need to prepare skills that can transfer to any profession.

Foe example, the first programming language I learned was FORTRAN. At the time there was a big market for FORTRAN programmers. Now, not so much. But what I did was not so much focus on programming specifically, but focus on understanding what the problem was and figuring out how to solve it. FORTRAN was just a tool to implement the solution. ANd over time, I changed or added tools.... BASIC, COBOL. PASCAL, C, C++, REXX, Java, SQL, .NET, Perl, python, etc... the result is that I can easily pick up new languages since my skill is in problem solving.

Every company and industry has problems, or opportunities. They hire people whom they think can help them with these problems/opportunities. If you focus on those type of skills, you can become very flexible.

Many of those Math majors who lost jobs on Wall Street are in demand in other industries, if they so choose. Why? Because many other industries and now starting to generate, save, and analyze information at the level the finance industry has been doing for years, and analysis of all that data is growing in demand. More and more sensors are being put on things to track where they are, report their state, etc... and companies are trying to use this information to increase revenue, reduce cost, or improve efficiency and productivity. So that is one example where the skill of data analysis can be transferred and has a great (in my view) outlook.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:49 PM   #126
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I have to say I finally found a thread that I wanted to respond bad enough to create an account. I've been a lurker around here for a couple of years now.

GenY person here. I think that it is somewhat more difficult for my generation to get ahead but I think it is the doing of most of my peers parents. They don't have a clear understanding that the labor market has changed and the days of "just go get a job" are over. Well at least in the sense of traditional good jobs. However, the majority of it comes from my generation living a life of being coddled and thinking that certain jobs are menial and below them.

I'm 25 and DW and I now have an income that would put us in the top 5% of filers. Very blessed and thankful for what we have but my road of hard work started MUCH earlier than nearly all my peers. I specifically remember being driven around the last week that I was 15, walking in every fast food/retail place in town trying to find a job. I eventually ended up in a fast food position and worked it through high school. My dad "bought" me a car and taught me about credit as I had to make payments to purchase it from him, pay the insurance, gas, and my portion of the cell phone bill. At $5.50/hr this left very little blow money for me. This was a very different lifestyle than all of my friends in high school experienced as most parents purchased them cars and only about 10% of my class had PT jobs. I never got to go to "the party" because I always had to work weekends. I remember a classmate telling me to "just quit, he's not going to take your car away." I explained to him that he would take it apart piece by piece and sell it for scrap before he would let me drive one mile without paying him for it. Just a different way of being raised I suppose.

It was also made very clear to me from a young age that college was not something that would be paid for by my parents and I was expected to pay my own way. (Neither of my parents graduated HS but dad joined the military and eventually opened up a successful small business). I worked my tail off taking every free ACT/SAT test prep class my school offered and applying for every 3rd party scholarship I could find. I eventually received a full tuition scholarship to a state school but I still had to work 24-32 hrs a week to pay room/board. I didn't have an oppurtunity to "find myself" as the scholarship was only for 8 semesters so I chose a reasonable major.

I ended up getting married in college at 21 and I had another person that I was responsible for. DW helped by working and I sold plasma for extra cash. Two people living together can always live cheaper than separately. I graduated college very near the bottom of the recession and I was thankful to earn a job upon graduation. It wasn't the job of my dreams but I had a family to support. It actually taught me very important skills that allowed me to springboard into my much more lucrative career now. We always seem to end up where we NEED to be rather than where we WANT to be.

Most of my highschool and college classmates that graduated in the recession and had never had a boss in their lives. They did/do not know how to conduct themselves in an interview or in an environment with professionals. They are still looked at as a child instead of a grown adult, because nothing in their lives has made them into adults yet. I type all this out to say that the American dream is NOT dead, but I think it takes a little more work to make it. I would say that of my classmates on 20% are in careers. The others may be working but mom/dad are still supporting them in some way.
Sorry for the long post.
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:54 PM   #127
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My view is biased from my experience. I believe you don't prepare for a specific profession - you need to prepare skills that can transfer to any profession.
In principle I agree, and historically this has been good enough. But these days employers expect increasingly unrealistic combinations of education and experience.

Once upon a time, if you had a college degree -- any degree -- it opened a lot of doors even in somewhat unrelated fields, the theory being that you were reasonably bright, determined and trainable. These days half the college degrees are considered "worthless" by employers. And having a degree in a particular field isn't good enough even if it's the right field. You also have to have either an advanced degree or very *specific* experience in a few areas.

Just demonstrating the aptitude to be a good employee when properly trained isn't good enough. Employers are increasingly getting out of the OJT business -- partially because they are so understaffed and employees overworked already that there is no slack for training -- and thus merely having a demonstrated ability to learn new things or having skills that can "transfer" to others with a little training isn't good enough for most employers.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:14 PM   #128
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I have to say I finally found a thread that I wanted to respond bad enough to create an account. I've been a lurker around here for a couple of years now.

I'm 25 and DW and I now have an income that would put us in the top 5% of filers. Very blessed and thankful for what we have but my road of hard work started MUCH earlier than nearly all my peers. I specifically remember being driven around the last week that I was 15, walking in every fast food/retail place in town trying to find a job. I eventually ended up in a fast food position and worked it through high school. My dad "bought" me a car and taught me about credit as I had to make payments to purchase it from him, pay the insurance, gas, and my portion of the cell phone bill. At $5.50/hr this left very little blow money for me. This was a very different lifestyle than all of my friends in high school experienced as most parents purchased them cars and only about 10% of my class had PT jobs. I never got to go to "the party" because I always had to work weekends.
ElecEngineer. Welcome, welcome! Hope you participate more.

Your parents did well. I'm 25 yrs ahead of you, but was fortunate enough to be in high school during some terrible economic times (late 70s/early 80s -- a lot of broken firecalc scenarios happen there). Yes, fortunate. It built some character. Fast food? Nope. Moms were going back to work and she took those. It was hard to get a job. I was extremely, extremely fortunate to meet a small businessman near where I lived and he gave me a 4 hours a week job emptying office trash. (Cigarette inside days, I hated the ash in the trash!) Car? Nope. But at least my 4 hours at $2.25 got me some bus fares. Friends? For whatever reason, we were all in the same boat. Had a rich friend (father was lawyer), but his dad didn't give him no stinkin' car.

From this we learned a bit about the value of working. Your parents gave you the same gift. I'm glad you are appreciating it.

Now, about that school thing. What I'm seeing is for engineers, employers now want Masters degrees. This is kind of becoming ridiculous. ElecEngineer, did you run into that? Do you feel held back by not having the MS? Or did you get the MS?
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:52 PM   #129
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Most of my highschool and college classmates that graduated in the recession and had never had a boss in their lives. They did/do not know how to conduct themselves in an interview or in an environment with professionals. They are still looked at as a child instead of a grown adult, because nothing in their lives has made them into adults yet. I type all this out to say that the American dream is NOT dead, but I think it takes a little more work to make it. I would say that of my classmates on 20% are in careers. The others may be working but mom/dad are still supporting them in some way.
Sorry for the long post.
You are to be congratulated for escaping the fate you described above.
Sadly, as a Gen Xer with lots of friends your age, your assessment of the Gen Y cohort is spot-on.

I was just explaining to one today that the reason his parents still try to dictate his actions and still treat him like a child at 24 is because he still lives at home and works for his dad!
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:10 PM   #130
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There's more adult children living at home, than I ever recall in my lifetime. I don't think it's as much the result of the present economy, as it is changes in philosophies of parenting, and the modern education system.

I wonder if some of these "kids" are going to be able to pull this off for decades, and then get a big inheritance to live on when the parents pass on. That's the only way I see this lifestyle perpetuating itself. For most of them, that scenario will not pan out. They'll end up 60 years old, and still be complaining how unfair life is.
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:29 PM   #131
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I'm not sure whether it's a harder road these days. Granted, the get an education/job/career days are over. For many they never existed in the first place. I won't bore you with my childhood, but it suffice to say I was not coddled in any way.
A little panic of graduating from college with my pregnant wife in attendance turned me into a full fledged hustler and go getter. For the first thirty years of my career I was the guy who would go where no one else would and do what they wouldn't. Meanwhile I saved and invested like mad and now I'm in a good place. FI and ready to RE at some point.
Rather than look at the demographics we should concentrate on our own opportunities
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:39 PM   #132
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When I was young, rarely did you have to wait 30-40 minutes for a dining table on a Wednesday night. But now, all these very expensive restaurants are full almost every night. And not just downtown, also in the close-in popular neighborhoods. 2/3 or more of the free-spending customers are in their 30s.
i saw this in atlanta suburbs last weekend. the late 30s folks are not only affluent but many had their children at the restaurants too. one wonders if it is possible that they are saving any money cause it seems they spend whatever they have coming in .. just like i did when i was their age.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:05 PM   #133
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i saw this in atlanta suburbs last weekend. the late 30s folks are not only affluent but many had their children at the restaurants too. one wonders if it is possible that they are saving any money cause it seems they spend whatever they have coming in .. just like i did when i was their age.
I don't know. My BIL (boomer) won't step in a restaurant if there are any entrees under $20. His daughter (gen-y) won't step into a restaurant if there are any entrees over $20. She didn't keep daddy's habit.

What I *do* notice as a habit of Y's and millennials, is the $5 a cup coffee habit (or $4 energy drink).

My dad (greatest generation) is beyond perplexed and asks "where's their thermoses?" I've never seen him buy a cup of coffee to go, EVER.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:38 AM   #134
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Ha. My Daddy would say "do you know why your sister and her husband will always be broke? Because if they want a Coke, they stop and buy one!"
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:47 AM   #135
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Some of it is changing expectations. We had only one car. I walked to neighborhood markets to get the milk and bread. Also milk was delivered to the house for a while. College was not an option or spoke of.

I had a paper route with which I bought my first car at 14. Yes 14 years old. Almost 15. Worked on it till 16 then took my test in it. It didn't last through my teen age driving long. Bought another car from my dad and drove it a few years.

Went in the Air Force at 17 turned 18 in basic.

I left home with a bag and about $250 in the bank.

I now am retired at 55. No college degree.
You didn't need a college degree in those days to have a decent life. A high school diploma/GED was all you needed. Try retiring 30 years from now (if you're in your 20s today) without a college degree if you work @ a regular 9-5er job. It ain't going to happen unless you win the power ball lottery or invent the next can't live without product.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:08 AM   #136
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You didn't need a college degree in those days to have a decent life. A high school diploma/GED was all you needed. Try retiring 30 years from now (if you're in your 20s today) without a college degree if you work @ a regular 9-5er job. It ain't going to happen unless you win the power ball lottery or invent the next can't live without product.
I beg to differ.. I didn't invent a must have product, I don't play the lottery, I didn't graduate from college - the past few years my pay has been in the six figures. We save 25%+ a year

Not only will ER happen for us, but it will be a fairly nice ER.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:45 AM   #137
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I agree, I didn't go to college until very late, just finished my 4 year degree at 40, and DH has an AA he got at 35. We didn't invent anything but work hard and save and live modestly. The middle class is still alive and well, thanks.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:47 AM   #138
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With an income of 30 to 40K, a 100+K student loan could be a rocky start for early retirement.
Being 27 and part of the generation in this conversation, I've never understood how going to a private school and racking up $100k in debt is worth it, especially if you're getting a history or teaching degree.

Let's ignore the Community College -> State School route (which is cheapest) and just look at a state university. Let's say a student needs loans their first year to get off the ground and never gets scholarships during the whole 4 years. That means they are in the whole $10-$20k after 1 year of room, board, and courses. However, after year 1, there's no reason to stay in the dorms, which is what racks up all that debt.

If they paid $15k/year their freshman year, cutting back to living in an apartment now means they are paying 50% of that and then paying for an apartment.

If the average college kid can get an apartment for $650/mo and live on $900/month, then they can pay all those bills by working 20 hours/week for $15/hr ($1200/mo before taxes). Now, they're only racking up $7500 in debt for the next 3 years. Add that to their $15k and that's a much lower $37.5k for 4 years.

However, as a guy who graduated 4 years ago, there's 2 problems with this:
1) Many of my peers were unwilling to work during college (blew my mind)
2) Many of my peers took >4 years to graduate because they a) Had no clue what they wanted to do, or b) screwed around and lost a few semesters

Many folks in the world seem to think #1 and 2 are OK, which blows my mind. Why should you not work? And why would one spend thousands of dollars while you took gen-eds and figured out what you wanted to do?

This doesn't even get into the fact that a large number of my peers seemingly thought that the piece of paper they got at the end was their ticket to the workplace, and didn't put in the effort during their university years to work on relevant jobs, internships, or projects.

My 3 brothers and 1 brother-in-law are all examples of what I've written about above. Ages 20, 22, 24, and 24, they're all playing the victim in various ways instead of owning up to the fact they are in control of their future and planning appropriately for it.
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Old 04-09-2013, 07:25 AM   #139
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Being 27 and part of the generation in this conversation, I've never understood how going to a private school and racking up $100k in debt is worth it, especially if you're getting a history or teaching degree.
I think it depends on what you want to do with it. If you are getting a "terminal" bachelor's degree (i.e. no intention for graduate studies or professional school), I think a "cheap" degree from a state school can be as good as a more expensive one. Yeah, a few snobbish employers go for the prestige of the name, but in reality, at the "top" schools the undergrads are often taught by adjunct faculty and grad students. The "top" faculty is either teaching graduate students or busy with research.

Now if you have aspirations to the top of the academic ladder, or you are looking to enter certain professional schools (law, medicine, et cetera), then again the "snob appeal" of the more prestigious schools can help in the admissions process. But it's not really because it's a better education at the undergraduate level, IMO.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:03 AM   #140
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There are some pretty good and reasonable state schools that employers seek graduates from.

College isn't for everyone. I church friend of mine manages crews that install and repair telecommunications lines. Most of these guys just have a simple tech degree, 2 years or less. My friend was explaining that they are all making 6 figures, some near 150k from overtime. Incredible. These are young people too, most under 35 years old.

I still think telecommunications tech is a good profession to pursue. There are tons of old lines needing maintenance. People are always swapping out cable and dsl and whatever.

The only danger here is wireless. Spectrum is an issue right now, limiting really widespread adoption. But I can see a day where it might be everything wireless and all lines and cables go away. If you want TV, or internet, or whatever, the most you might do is get a box at the office and come home and turn it on. Eventually, every device (including the one implanted in your head) will just "work" wirelessly. But that's still a long way off.

Heck, AT&T is still keeping wax and paper insulated phone cables patched together in most cities. This won't go away overnight.
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