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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 06:33 AM   #21
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Re: boss dilema

Initiate a job search quietly. Once you get one you can live with, hire a lawyer. Sue for harassment, hostile working environment. You'll be able to retire much earlier, if the lawyer doesn't get all the payoff. I am not a big fan of suing just because somebody offended you, but this immature idiot is earning one.

You cannot win by arguing. Oh, document (memo for record) time/date/place/who you talked to (including HR) diligently. Could this be sexual/racial harassment? Are you merits/raises similar to other employees. Is this personal? If you talk to the director, do it quietly behind closed doors. No public issues,as you'll be termed a n'er do well and rabble-rouser. If you have a confidante at work have him/her document as well what they see and hear. Also, if this guy treats you this way, he must do it to others. Once the official heat gets turned on, you might get some support.

I ain't no lawyer, but I know when the weight of the documentation equals yours, the company is gonna lose. What this boss is doing, we endured 40 years ago. I think those days are over. BTW: One thing I did do during my career (years ago) was termination interviews. We kept getting the same answer to this question: Why are you leaving? Answer: Supervisor Queepeg. I kept kicking the interviews upstairs. We finally moved this fool. But you have got to be persistent and especially document everything. Good luck.
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 07:05 AM   #22
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Re: boss dilema

This is basically the same thing SG is saying (I'm so unoriginal):

They are paying your boss more than they are paying you, and they're keeping him around. For some reason beyond our comprehension the company considers him more valuable than you.

HR's job is to keep the company from being sued by the employees. They are not really on your side.

Given that the employee is female and the supervisor is male I'm not sure th's advice would work in this situation.

If the company burned down and went out of business you would not starve and die. You would find another job. Don't wait for the company to burn, start job hunting now.
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 07:54 AM   #23
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Re: boss dilema

Not to diverge too much, but this is a great example of where LBYM and saving for ER can give you short term benefits as well as long term. I am by no means FIRE, but I've paid off my debt and have saved enough at this point that if I was ever in a really bad spot at work, I could say, "Shove it!" because I know I a can afford to be out of work for a while. I think that makes every day at work that much easier. When people do things that used to infuriate me, more often than not I just laugh now.
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 07:58 AM   #24
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Re: boss dilema

It's been a long time(12th year in ER).

Elegantly or inelagently do something! Other than your own peace of mind - one other thing - if you work there long enough, you get tagged with your dept.'s reputation. How is that - from the outside looking in?
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 08:36 AM   #25
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Re: boss dilema

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What happened? Did HR do anything? Are you documenting these tantrums?
If HR won't do anything, Please get the he** away from this nut case. You don't deserve this kind of abuse. File for unemployment (or contact a lawyer) and cite an abusive environment...

Usually you don't have legal recourse if the boss is equally abusive to everyone; not singling people out based on sex, age, color, etc.

This is NOT legal advice, but my gut feeling is that try to have more than just you go to HR and talk about the issues. United front and all. But know that there always is the chance you will get canned.
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 09:58 AM   #26
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Re: boss dilema

Vicky, Some intervention needs to take place here. I would definitely put HR on notice there is a major problem going on in your department. Document every conversation, event that has been going on with your boss. With your education and career field, I would be out looking for another job. Life is too short for such unhappiness. Your boss is a jerk!
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 10:05 AM   #27
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Re: boss dilema

Besides my earlier suggestion (remember, I'm wealthy...I can do stuff like that without fear of repercussion).

I'm going to add to the discussions on HR. While working I generally made friends with the HR folks...going out drinking beer until the wee hours friends. By the way, when they get drunk they absolutely blab everything about everybody, although the next morning you're sworn to secrecy.

As human beings, they really dont want to see something bad happen to an employee. They want all laws and rules followed.

But their job is NOT in any way to act as your advocate or make sure your problem gets solved. The very moment they detect that you may be moving into an area where the company may be at legal or financial risk, a report is written, management is notified, and a little invisible box appears around you.

You might get the immediate problem resolved. You might win a battle. You're absolutely going to lose the war. You will be 'marked'. In essence, you will become the nice dog that bit somebody once. Everybody may still be happy to see you, but nobody is going to put a body part near your choppers and everybody will be a little nervous about it. The word of what transpired will absolutely get out and become a major topic of office gossip, where of course it will be garnished with all sorts of stuff. Remember playing "the whisper game"?

A long way to make sure you understand that HR is not a tool to help you...

Get another job. Quietly, loudly, however you want to do it...but get out of that managers field of vision, presume right now that this manager will take your change of job as a major slight and will take whatever opportunity they have to damage your career...so make sure your move is to a new division or somewhere else well away from their area. Say all the right things (I need a fresh challenge/I want to get closer to the companies core business/I want to do something really different/etc) to try to minimize the damage down the line, but dont spend too much time on that, it probably wont matter.
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 10:10 AM   #28
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Re: boss dilema

There are really two issues here: coping with a difficult manager; leaving a difficult manager. Considering litigation is not productive, and not likely to achieve your goals.

Don't hope you can change this manager, the best you can do is manage your interaction with him/her. There are a number of good books on this subject.

While you are doing that discreetly start working on an exit plan. You are not meeting the manager's needs (that is not to say that the manager's needs are OK), plan accordingly.

Recently I read a book published by the Harvard Business Review with a title to the effect: When Good Managers do Bad Things. If you have a chance, read it. It will give you some insight on management dynamics.
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 10:59 AM   #29
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Re: boss dilema

Quote:
Get another job. *Say all the right things (I need a fresh challenge/I want to get closer to the companies core business/I want to do something really different/etc) to try to minimize the damage down the line, but dont spend too much time on that, it probably wont matter.
Vicky
As usual, much wisdom from the many "life battles" by this board's posters. Note particularly TH's most recent.
As much as you want to back a truck over this guy, in the end whatever pleasure you did get will minor to what you can achieve by focusing your energies on being someplace else and looking back at how much better off you are. (I do encourage you to use this experience however to raise your understanding of the key questions to ask to get a handle on your future manager's leadership--including doing some cross checking of "stories" with future co-workers).
Expecting a dysfunctional organization to get better is like wishing for Tinkerbell to provide you fairy dust to fly-way. The job market right now is as great as it has been for some time so "carpe diem"!
Make a commitment to yourself to spend X time every day on finding someplace better to be.
Good luck and "fly away" soon
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 11:31 AM   #30
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Re: boss dilema

Vicky,

Seems to me the best thing for you to do would be to heed the 'find a different gig, pronto' advice, whether it be somewhere else in the company or at a different org.


Then, sometime down the road when your path crosses with whats-his-name, you could accidently kick his ass for being a waste of space... sorry... that's probably not gonna help your karma, but I know it would make ME feel better.
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 01:12 PM   #31
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Re: boss dilema

Documentation is the key....a written litany of his unprofessional behaviors is nice powder to have. Confronting his one up manager with the data, while keeping your other employment options humming, could be a good strategy.

Or, if you're really devious, he sounds like the type that might implode in front of others with a few well placed jabs of the clinically inserted needle.....torment him into extinction! Sounds like his fuse is pretty short.
Caveat Emptor....the author is into his 3rd glass of $12 cab sauv...
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 01:13 PM   #32
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Re: boss dilema

Vicky,

After working for a controling ass for ~10 years I channeled my energy into RE (thinking it'll be a way OUT). He eventually left the company after several employees complained to HR and his upward mobility was limited. Now I have his job and will retire at 43 with the RE working for this asshole guided me to.

Point being, when all you have is lemons, make lemonade.

Hang in there!
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 03:26 PM   #33
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Re: boss dilema

Quote:
I expect to keep on staying with this company for another 3-4 years.
Any suggestions?
Vicky, what are your reasons for staying another 3-4 years with the company? Salary, benefits?

If it were me, I would definitely go looking for another job. You have to weigh if your reasons for staying are more important than your psychological health.

Is the rest of the company better than your unit? If so, are there openings for which you qualify? Still, it could be tricky to look for another job within the same company. Your manager might resent that and may do whatever is in his power to prevent you from leaving, even to the extent of giving you poor performance reviews or badmouthing you to other hiring managers.

The latter happened to a friend of mine who had a really bad manager who seemed to have it in for my friend. She kept picking on my friend and giving her bad evaluations so that the other managers who had openings in their units did not hire my friend. My friend ended up being fired after almost 4 years of torture from this evil manager. This manager had a reputation in the company for being a bad manager, and the company eventually did let her go, but one of her last acts was to fire my friend.

Don't let it happen to you. There must be other jobs elsewhere. There've been lots of good advice here, including what you can change (your job by getting another one) and can't change (your current manager).
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Re: boss dilema
Old 04-29-2005, 07:19 PM   #34
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Re: boss dilema

Quote:


Usually you don't have legal recourse if the boss is equally abusive to everyone; not singling people out based on sex, age, color, etc.
Martha, I was hoping you'd check in on this one ... that's a good point. Of course, since we don't know exactly what this guy is saying, it's possible he could be stupid enough to stray over those lines ...
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Re: boss dilema
Old 05-01-2005, 05:00 PM   #35
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Re: boss dilema

VoyT, it could be that the manager strayed over the line, but it would take a lot of time and energy to prove it.*

The best revenge is doing well elsewhere.* Depending on the industry/profession she may be in a position to even the score, but never share your opinion with another employer.* Everyone has worked for a jerk at some time, no one likes to wonder whether or not you will tell tales about your next current employer.

Take the high road out of there!!
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Re: boss dilema
Old 05-01-2005, 06:20 PM   #36
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Re: boss dilema

Thanks for all of the experiences and advice.

I checked what the company generally does and it is like th and others said. I may win a battle but lose a war. HR is not there for employees but works for management. Management has selected asshole boss to move up so they will back him. The last person to go to the director to complain about a similar situation was fired in the next available round. Based on my boss's behavior only, I will have no legal recourse because it will all be blown off as interpersonal differences. However, I have started documenting everything. About a year ago I finally stopped a sexual harrassment thing that went on for about half a year. This did put HR in high gear. The person involved is not at the company no more. If the company does fire me I will take them to court to show a pattern of a hostile environment and retaliation if that is possible.

I have thought about leaving the company and decided with DH to stay. I will keep working on a transfer and keep a very low profile in the meantime. One of my colleagues in my group did that. I took him a year and it took the boss by surprise but he did it. I am not interested in another employer at this time. My industry consists of a few big players only, not too many places to go unless I want to consider a different part of the country but DH is more important than a job.

Within another 3-4 years I am planning to kiss my cubicle job goodbye and only work for myself. I am willing to take a big paycut at that time, but it is not possible now. Leaving now would mean losing lots of benefits and $$$ that I need for my RE. I will minimize the communication with my boss to an absolute minimum and only communicate with him by email/phone/pager as I was able to do for a little while. Of course I get dinged for this big time in my performance review again (Vicky does not properly understand the need to communicate with her manager for direction and yadayada) but it keeps me more sane.
At my previous employer I had a fantastic boss. I really enjoyed working for him. Then they promoted him (he deserved it) and brought in a complete idiot. If I move to another company I may have to work for a nutcake somewhere else. I will definitely keep my eyes open but I am not ready to tell the boss to shove it.

Since boredom rules my day, I have put my side business in high gear and I am going to sign up for some classes to put my other future self-employment plans in high gear. This way I may be able to nibble some more time from the 3-4 year horizon. In the meantime I will have to turn my brain off when I go to the office and not take any of his behavior towards me personally. Hope I can stand it.

Vicky
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Re: boss dilema
Old 05-01-2005, 09:56 PM   #37
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Re: boss dilema

By the way, you arent necessarily going to end up fired.

I had the "major moron boss" who wanted to play fast and loose with the politics. In my case, he decided to tell me who I could and couldnt date in the company; in particular someone who had dated one of his friends previously. Unfortunately we were about 3 weeks into a relationship.

I boxed him in nicely, got all the goods on him, had HR all worried about any problems/lawsuits, crossed all the 't's and dotted all the 'i''s.

For three months, he was my very best buddy. I treated him like a deluxe rattlesnake that was probably just sleeping.

Came in to work one morning to be told by security that our entire office had been closed down and half the personnel...including management (me) laid off.

He had basically restructured the organization to have only the people he liked report to matrix managers in another district, and quite easily killed me and a few supporters off.

Our legal prospects? Slim...he claimed it was just a streamlining to cut costs and consolidate management.

By the way, I was the #1 sales manager in the country. By a big, fat, huge margin...$13.5M to the #2's 5.5. So performance wont help you much either.
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Re: boss dilema
Old 05-01-2005, 10:04 PM   #38
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Re: boss dilema

Dang, TH, that's crazy! Of course, the best revenge is that you are spending your time much happier than he is!
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Re: boss dilema
Old 05-01-2005, 10:18 PM   #39
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Re: boss dilema

Yeah, it worked out for me. I decided after taking a couple of months off to move to california and shack up with an old girlfriend, got the job that paid me all the stock options that let me ER, and a few months after I got here, I received word that my old boss had been fired by the new CEO.

I sent a somewhat modified grief card to his house..."I'm sorry you're dead".
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Re: boss dilema
Old 05-01-2005, 11:02 PM   #40
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Re: boss dilema

Quote:
Originally Posted by th
I received word that my old boss had been fired by the new CEO.
I sent a somewhat modified grief card to his house..."I'm sorry you're dead".
What goes around, comes around.

MJ
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