Coding bootcamps instead of college

[ChiliPepr]

As a CS degree holder and Development Manager, I would always hire a 4 year degree person over a BC person. Most BC people can code, but are not good at architecture, dealing with users, or picking up aspects of the business side. And our firm pretty much requires a four year degree before we even let you in the door to interview.

If you only want to be a code jockey (what a BC will teach you) you are limited and at a high risk of being outsourced.

[OldShooter]

All of what has been said about skills, etc. is correct but that is not the most important thing.

I'm a computer architect by trade with an MSEE and did all the coursework and prelims for a PhD in computer science before life happened. I spent much of my career in high-tech management, hiring an supervising many people.

First, a hiring supervisor at a medium/big company is taking a chance hiring anyone with less than a 4-year software degree from a recognized institution. This doesn't mean they won't do it, but the odds are against the candidate with poor credentials. This is true even beyond the first job, even where the candidate has some "braggin' rights" accomplishments.

Second, such person will be looked down upon by colleagues and team members. Even if the person excels, he/she will be like the tofu burger: "That's pretty good for tofu."

Third, there are people who have an almost lunatic faith in degrees. I remember arguments with a Director of Engineering who flatly refused to give anyone an engineering job title unless they had a 4-year engineering degree.

Against this, an "unqualified" person with the right personality and some experience might get hired into a startup based on good vibes with the hiring manager and on the fact that they might be available and cheap. From that kind of a start, wonderful things can happen. BUT, you only hear about the lucky winners. You won't hear of the majority where this didn't happen.

So ... are you feeling lucky for your kids or do you want them to start in the real world with the odds in their favor instead of against them?

Personally? I wouldn't hire a teenage "boot camp" graduate for anything above a routine job like a production line test technician.

[marko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRG While I had years of experience, without a BS there were many doors that were permanently closed to me.

But with an $800k head start at 25 (and maybe growing that close to $2M by 35) you may be well beyond needing many of those doors.

We all know kids who went for a degree but their heart wasn't in it and ended up a "failure" by dropping out and only a big student loan to show for it.

[RAE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry1 I think you’re discounting your education too much. Sure, it probably didn’t really help you much with coding, but what about general knowledge? Learning how to learn and interact with people in projects come to mind..

Yes, I agree. I interacted with quite a few new hires where I worked. The ones that did best and advanced most rapidly were the ones that had the best interpersonal skills, and knew how to work well in a team setting. Sure, you still have to have the basic skills to do your job, but a lot of folks have those. It's the ones that know how to get along with others and work well together that do the best.


That said, I do agree that college is not for everyone. Some kids will do far better in another type of learning environment. Also, some kids are not at all ready for the sudden independence that comes with college, and/or have no idea what career field they are interested in, and those kids waste a lot of time and money spinning their wheels and getting nowhere. So it really depends on the kid, as others have said.

[OldShooter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marko But with an $800k head start at 25 (and maybe growing that close to $2M by 35) you may be well beyond needing many of those doors. ...

True enough. After tax 22% CAGR to age 25, then "only" 10% CAGR after tax to age 35. Probably he could find work as a magician.

[RunningBum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldShooter True enough. After tax 22% CAGR to age 25, then "only" 10% CAGR after tax to age 35. Probably he could find work as a magician.

Funded by an Uber driver.

[Freedom56]

If your kids want a career in "Software engineering" not "IT", I would not only send them to university, but encourage them to get into the best ones. Encourage them to also consider electrical engineering with their computer science degree. IT jobs are where you will find people without degrees or degrees in arts. Not to mention the salaries are much lower and in many cases horrible.

I got my BS and MS in Computer Science with a minor in electrical engineering from one of the top ranked universities. My university days were some of my best years. I got away from home, met lots of people, had fun, and learned a lot. I met a lot of creative people. It was tough. Only 15% of the first year class actually graduated.

If you are concerned about earning income, I got my first real job (summer job) after the first year of University and stayed on part-time during the school year. The recruiters came to our campus to look for CS students and they still do. I stayed on with my employer after graduation (they made me an offer I could not refuse) and they paid for my graduate studies. I was earning more than many of my professors when I finished my undergraduate degree.

I worked for three companies in the 35 year career (plus a lot of sideline work) after completing my undergraduate degree and all had a policy regarding advancement to management. You had to have a degree from a recognized university to advance. This was a corporate policy. Our last employer wouldn't even interview people with out degrees for permanent positions or degrees from online universities. I met a lot of talented coders that dropped out of university, but most of them came to regret it later in life when they saw less qualified people with degrees advancing. A good coder with special skills can earn upwards of $500+ per hour on a contract basis. I know a few without degrees that are doing that. But they are rare and those opportunities are limited in time and scope.

[marko]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldShooter True enough. After tax 22% CAGR to age 25, then "only" 10% CAGR after tax to age 35. Probably he could find work as a magician.

OP stated the $800k number from saving tuition and then working/living at home and banking income til 25.
Doubling $800 k over ten years is not out of thd question

[Aerides]

Quote:

Originally Posted by firenow My BS in computer science really hasn't been useful in my career as a coder.

It might be different in your MC or 10 years from now, but in my experience (and I hired plenty of devs and engineers over the years), a degree was almost always mandatory for a resume to make it past basic filters by recruiting. Not my rule, my bosses and up.

No rookie engineer would get an interview without a BCS or equivalent. Internships were also vetted from the "right" schools, and entry level tech roles were ripe for interns to pick.
Maybe a few years from now the recruiting will shift to those camps, but right now it sounds like a great thing to do in addition to college, vs. instead of. Or an also-ran option for the kids who otherwise would not make it to a 4-year school.

[Big_Hitter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by firenow What do you think of putting kids in high school in a coding bootcamp and letting them start their careers as a programmer by 17 instead of sending them to a 4 year college?

they can do this already

[OldShooter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marko OP stated the $800k number from saving tuition and then working/living at home and banking income til 25. Doubling $800 k over ten years is not out of thd question

Sorry. Missed that. The scenario still looks unrealistic to me tho.

[Lakewood90712]

I found a pad of blank FOTRAN coding sheets in the garage last mo. , so things are a little bit different these days

I guess coding accelerated schools could be a better path to $ but at that age few really know what they want to do for a career.

[HornedToad10]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marko OP stated the $800k number from saving tuition and then working/living at home and banking income til 25. Doubling $800 k over ten years is not out of thd question

It really depends whether OP wants his kids to have a large amount in the bank, find a decent but not great job for 10-15 years and either retire early on modest income or do something that doesn't make as much money. Or if he wants his kids to be able to get the best job they can and potentially have a longer and more advanced career but not have the initial influx of investment dollars available due to college tuition. But if the interest is not to go to college, why force a coding bootcamp instead of trying to start a business, joining the peace corps, working in a non-profit, etc.

My understanding is that coding bootcamps are also primarily front end skills and you don't learn very much related to back-end, cloud, Machine Learning/Artificial Intelligence or other extremely hot fields right now that the kids might enjoy/be good at.

[joeea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by firenow What do you think of putting kids in high school in a coding bootcamp and letting them start their careers as a programmer by 17 instead of sending them to a 4 year college?

Not much.

Perhaps it's different this year or in your locale. But in my 40+ years of work I always required a college degree for all hires and never had any difficulties finding qualified graduates. I never hired a 17 year old, although I did hire a few non graduates for jobs that were not programming.

The 17 year olds would be competing with 21 year olds from all over the world having a lot more programming experience, internships, maturity, and real-world savvy.

One way to check this would be to search the job boards relevant to your locale for entry-level programming jobs. See if there are many that don't require college and how much they pay relative to those that do. Better yet, talk to a good headhunter in your area.

Quote:

Save the college fee & instead open a vanguard account on their name with 200k. Let them be home with you saving up all their income and continue to invest it in the account from age 17 to 25 to be FI at 25 with ~800K in their account.

If the account balance is the real attraction, perhaps the kids could skip the coding bootcamp and do some other kind of work starting at 17.

Or perhaps they could go to a less expensive college and you could invest fewer dollars on their behalf.

[GrayHare]

"I'm 17 and have a $200k portfolio. No need for me to push through the inevitable challenges ahead!"

I learned as much from my college classmates outside the classroom as I did from professors in the classroom, and it was broader knowledge about the world, people, life, love, etc.

[Retch The Grate]

I think a huge element that is being missed is that college isn't just about job training, it's about learning to think and having a breadth of knowledge that enables you to understand and synthesize new and different things. A coding bootcamp and then full time into a coding job doesn't seem like it yields the life of the mind that one might want to foster...

[joeea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retch The Grate I think a huge element that is being missed is that college isn't just about job training, it's about learning to think and having a breadth of knowledge that enables you to understand and synthesize new and different things. A coding bootcamp and then full time into a coding job doesn't seem like it yields the life of the mind that one might want to foster...

Well said!

I always told my sons from a young age that they should go to college no matter what career they chose. At around five, my son declared he wanted to drive a garbage truck. I told him he could - after he graduated from college.

The deal was always that they could get into the best college they wished and we would pay for it. It worked out well. They are both extremely successful in their chose careers.

What I always had in mind is pretty much exactly what you wrote. Thanks for phrasing it well.

In addition to all of that, graduating from college gives you more options, where going to coding bootcamp lmits your options. At a young age I always advise people to keep as many options open as possible. I know lots of folks who graduated with a degree in one field who are successfully employed in another field.

[ncbill]

Or bribe the kid to go enlist so they can have the money & the GI Bill to pay for undergrad waiting for them afterwards.

[ransil]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncbill Or bribe the kid to go enlist so they can have the money & the GI Bill to pay for undergrad waiting for them afterwards.

X2 gets the screw off years out of they way too and pays while screwing off.
I did not do the GI bill, fail on my part, but I think wife and I did ok for ourselves.

[ivinsfan]

I assume this is a rhetorical question and not about your own kids?

Nothing you have said in even one of your previous posts indicates you have a desire to save 2OOk for any of your kids, so the question is moot.



You plan to put them in a 700 dollar a month apartment and hope they get massive aid for college or borrow money...