Could you retire at 38?

[FUEGO]

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Originally Posted by Milton Unusual that both of you would incur the substantial time, trouble and expense of law school with no intention of practicing (not that I think that private law practice is a great gig, but at least it pays pretty well and would provide some return on your investment). May I ask why you made that decision?

I was young and stupid! I fully intended to go into practice after law school. I figured making six figures starting out would be a cinch and I would soon be wealthy. Then I learned that most law graduates, even from my top 25 program, didn't make six figures. And those that did really put in the hours. The work didn't seem that appealing either. And the stress and level of unhappiness among the lawyers I met and worked with was an eye opener. So I decided to be an engineer after all. Then we started a family and I knew I wouldn't have time to be a lawyer AND have the kind of family and personal life I wanted (and contemporaneously make as much as I am making practicing engineering).

I did recently get my law license, the process for which I started in early '09 when we all thought the economic world was coming unglued and I figured hanging a shingle to hustle for some bread money wouldn't be so bad after all (agile, mobile, and hostile and all that). Given the changing attitudes toward "the rich" in the US, and my personal hunch that taxes on higher income earners will continue to increase, I'm not too eager to spend a lot of extra time or energy in making six figure salaries when I can keep doing what I'm doing and pay almost no tax. And still be FI at a relatively young age!

DW chose law school because she wanted to copy me and not lose out to me in an argument! And she didn't like work at the time and didn't want to return to get an MBA or Master's in Accounting. Go figure.

Luckily both our law schools were very cheap with in state tuition. And the loans are carrying an average interest rate of 1.5% or so right now (tax deductible interest of course). I think we both learned a lot of valuable information in law school and it gives us some perspective. It has helped me some professionally in engineering in terms of a very slightly higher salary and it has earned me a little bit of a reputation as being just a cut above some other fellow employees (I'd like to think). The writing skills obtained in law school are frequently put to use in my engineering practice as well. A frequent task I am given is "here, take this mumbo jumbo and make it sound real good so we can convince these fools that we are right".

[LARS]

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Originally Posted by FUEGO I think we both learned a lot of valuable information in law school and it gives us some perspective.

Education is all about learning how to think and articulate your point of view (both verbally and written). In that regard, a good law school education fits the bill. We can debate the cost of higher education from a ROI point of view, but that misses the point in some ways. We are the sum of all of our experiences and law school is a good one.

Full Disclosure: I have an MBA and not a JD.

[FUEGO]

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Originally Posted by LARS Education is all about learning how to think and articulate your point of view (both verbally and written). In that regard, a good law school education fits the bill. We can debate the cost of higher education from a ROI point of view, but that misses the point in some ways. We are the sum of all of our experiences and law school is a good one.

That is certainly true. I don't think I would be as financially savvy or tax savvy or understand real estate as well without law school. To some extent, the knowledge gained in law school has helped me be more knowledgeable in my current engineering practice that deals with real estate development, land use, zoning, planning, etc. I have to present at planning commissions and city council meetings fairly often, and occasionally (like last night) there are angry mobs with pitchforks looking to skewer someone. Legal training and practice helped prepare me for these situations as well. We are all a sum of our experiences.

[kcowan]

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Originally Posted by ziggy29 Oil changes come to mind here. I mean, I know perfectly well how to change my own oil. I could buy five quarts of oil and a filter for maybe $12 and get grimy and greasy and have spent oil to dispose of, or I can pay $20 and have a "pro" do it. Seems to me $8 is a small price to pay to have someone else deal with the getting dirty and disposing of used oil and filter. Sometimes there just isn't enough savings in DIY to bother.

My Dad always changed his own oil. I did it a couple of times but disposing of the oil is what finally turned me.

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Originally Posted by Nords ... and that's when I turn to my daughter to say "Hey, would you like to learn how to do this?"

Yes I did that with two boys - washing cars, mowing lawns. And they were ready assistants for housing projects for a time. So outsourcing became a habit.

[Celany]

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Originally Posted by Billy You bring up an interesting question, Kcowan. If you trade stocks and make money are you retired? If you have rental properties and all of the headaches that go with being a landlord, are you retired? If you create art and are fortunate enough to sell it, are you retired? What about playing in a band and receiving compensation? Is it a passion or a job? What about remodeling old Victorians and flipping them? Or charging your neighbors for handyman work? When is following your dreams, your passions or utilizing your talents qualify you as being ‘un-retired’? Akaisha Author, The Adventurer's Guide to Early Retirement The Adventurer's Guide to Chapala Living

I hope this doesn't sound disingenuous, but at that point, if it is something that brings you far more joy than grief, who cares?

For me, the point of ER is that it opens up a lot of doors by giving me TIME. Time that I don't have being a 9-to-6/7/8/9-er. I don't have to work, but I can choose to try my hand at all sorts of things. If it doesn't bring me the joy that I thought it would, I can stop doing it (And hopefully sell any materials that I bought to do it at a very reasonable price ).

Though I do also admit that I'm of the bent that I want to know how to do a lot of things myself to be self-sufficient. In the last month, I replaced the keyboard on my laptop (after spilling tea with honey all over it ; I bought a nice new enclosed mug, and "adult sippy cup", if you will, to prevent future accidents) & tonight I'm going to scrape the old thermal silver paste off of my PC's CPU & fan & see if replacing it will get my PC working again, well enough to check the stats on the motherboard & transfer the stuff on my hard drive to my new external go about getting a new motherboard bundle to replace it. Then I'll try my hand at rebuilding my PC (It's been a trying month for me, computer-wise).

I have a ton of friends who could do those things in no time flat (and my friend did look at my laptop when I booted it after the accident, to guide me through the 1st start-up after the accident). But I want to know how to do them because it's more convenient, and it gives me a certain level of confidence & reduced anxiety, to have one less (VERY important) thing that I need to depend on someone else to do.

So, for me, ER would be about having the skills to be more self-sufficient, the TIME do them when needed, not piece-meal after a long day's work, and the TIME to explore other avenues of passion.

Overall, I'm of the opinion (MY opinion only, folks) that, if I'm to take up something as a hobby that other people pay to do, I should charge at least enough money doing it to cover costs, if not more, so as to not drag down the market for that task. Assuming that I feel the task is already priced appropriately.

[Trek]

Retired at 35, but had to go abroad to do it and good reasons to do it so young with reasons well known around here.

All depends on what you want from your life and what you're willing to do to get it.

With no disrespect to the Kaderlis (I think they give great, honest advice on cheap travel/lifestyle in southern climates) and are no doubt experts on certain countries, I do not consider them retired as they actively earn money to support (or supplement) their lifestyle. Maybe they don't consider themselves retired either, not sure if they've ever clarified it, but they have an open invitation (not that they'd ever visit a Northern country) to my neck of the world to sort it out :-) They really seem like nice people.

Anywho, you don't need to get old and have millions to retire.

[Milton]

Well, we all make mistakes. Don't sweat it.

It isn't difficult to earn six figures (at least low six figures) practicing law; but I fully agree that most lawyers are stressed and unhappy. If you can make enough working as an engineer (which is presumably more enjoyable?) to support yourself and your family and still put significant money away towards FIRE, more power to you.

[NW-Bound]

On the parallel thread about doing own oil changes, I will say that it's not a big deal as the savings is small and concede that the risk to your beloved car is not as big a deal as I described (and I stopped loving my cars a LONG time ago).

The point I was making was that my late father taught me that the American society was a classless one, meaning that people in white-collar jobs did not think menial labor or artisanship was beneath them. And growing up, I always believed people who could use both their mind and their dexterity were more wholesome than some scholarly, or wealthy, or political figures who had servants waiting on them hand and foot.

I then found out that it is not entirely true here either. We do not have a caste system, but what society does not have its snobs? Witness the poster who had the dubious distinction of using the term "lumpen slum" in his post, right here on this forum.

Well, enough philosophizing for me today. And lest I get misunderstood, I state here again that I absolutely hate communism. I believe in meritocracy, and of course technocracy :-)

[Billy]

Celany

Quote:

For me, the point of ER is that it opens up a lot of doors by giving me TIME. Time that I don't have being a 9-to-6/7/8/9-er. I don't have to work, but I can choose to try my hand at all sorts of things. If it doesn't bring me the joy that I thought it would, I can stop doing it (And hopefully sell any materials that I bought to do it at a very reasonable price ).

Trek

Quote:

With no disrespect to the Kaderlis (I think they give great, honest advice on cheap travel/lifestyle in southern climates) and are no doubt experts on certain countries, I do not consider them retired as they actively earn money to support (or supplement) their lifestyle. Maybe they don't consider themselves retired either, not sure if they've ever clarified it, but they have an open invitation (not that they'd ever visit a Northern country) to my neck of the world to sort it out :-) They really seem like nice people.

‘Back in 1991’ there really wasn’t any other word for what we did --leave the working world by choice and live on our own investments -- other than the word ‘retire’ - so we used it.

Over the years, we have found that the word ‘retirement’ seems to have brought up a lot of subconscious from people, as well as some unwritten rules and descriptions of how retirement should look.

Some time back, we started to use the word ‘financially independent’ which seems to be free of the restrictions mentioned above.

If you were to ask people on the street if they would like to retire, you will get a mixed-bag answer. If you ask them if they would like to be financially independent, you are more likely to get a unanimous ‘yes!’

So… for the record… we consider ourselves to be financially independent. We can do what we want, when we want with both our money and our time. And, like we mentioned in the interview that started this thread, we have never considered ourselves to be wealthy. You don’t need a boatload of cash to live the lifestyle we do.

Those who have followed our story or have read our book, The Adventurer’s Guide to Early Retirement, know that we were retired 15 years before we wrote it.

Our website was our volunteer project, and we wrote our book to answer the same questions we were asked over and over. We had no idea if the digital format would sell. Fortunately for us, it has. We could close our website tomorrow and never write another adventure story and it wouldn’t affect our lifestyle. It just happens that some of the passions we follow are traveling the world, eating great food, photography and sharing our experiences with others.

And Trek, we’d love to meet you and visit your neck of the woods sometime, but we no longer have those sorts of clothes! Feel free to visit us. We’re always available via email on our website to set up travel plans.

Akaisha
Author, The Adventurer’s Guide to Early Retirement
The Adventurer’s Guide to Chapala Living

[kcowan]

I use the terms financially independent and also private portfolio manager to describe our status. It seems to be accepted better than prematurely-retired. And retirement still conjures up images of sitting in a rocker or playing bridge all day to many people.

[LARS]

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Originally Posted by kcowan I use the terms financially independent and also private portfolio manager to describe our status. It seems to be accepted better than prematurely-retired. And retirement still conjures up images of sitting in a rocker or playing bridge all day to many people.

I take a completely different tack. I tell people that I am a bum, albeit a high class one.

Though when I first retired and use to ride the ski lifts at Jackson Hole all winter, I would answer when asked what I did for a living that I was "a professional newspaper reader... the hours are great, but the pay sucks".

[Billy]

Kcowan

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I use the terms financially independent and also private portfolio manager to describe our status. It seems to be accepted better than prematurely-retired. And retirement still conjures up images of sitting in a rocker or playing bridge all day to many people.

Lars

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I take a completely different tack. I tell people that I am a bum, albeit a high class one. …that I was "a professional newspaper reader...

Yeah, it’s funny how easy it is to still get pulled into wanting to be accepted by strangers or looked upon favorably by them by giving an answer that won’t ruffle their feathers or make them feel badly about their own situation. Or giving one that somehow lets them know we aren’t brain dead.

Questions like ’What do you do?’ (about what?) ’What did you do?’ (when?) ‘What do you do all day?‘ (uh… uh… do I need to justify it? Which days? Which countries? Which year?) still have a way of throwing me on occasion. There will be a missed beat in the conversation while I try to process where in my personal history they might best relate.

Even introductions at some parties can be tricky, where people have the inclination to rattle off accomplishments or titles. (Is this a competition? Do I rate?)

I like to get right to conversation: ‘What are your passions? What are your dreams? What challenges you the most in your life right now? Do you play music? Garden? Raise pets? Travel? Dance? Do you enjoy science or math? Hey! Anybody for a conversation here?'

Akaisha
Author, The Adventurer’s Guide to Early Retirement
The Adventurer’s Guide to Chapala Living
　

[kcowan]

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Originally Posted by Billy I like to get right to conversation: ‘What are your passions? What are your dreams? What challenges you the most in your life right now? Do you play music? Garden? Raise pets? Travel? Dance? Do you enjoy science or math? Hey! Anybody for a conversation here?' Akaisha Author, The Adventurer’s Guide to Early Retirement The Adventurer’s Guide to Chapala Living

Yes turning the question around or taking the lead is often the best approach. It gets the topics away from w*rk.

[audreyh1]

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Originally Posted by LARS I take a completely different tack. I tell people that I am a bum, albeit a high class one. Though when I first retired and use to ride the ski lifts at Jackson Hole all winter, I would answer when asked what I did for a living that I was "a professional newspaper reader... the hours are great, but the pay sucks".

Wow - Jackson Hole all winter! You are a high class bum!

Audrey

[jacob]

I became FI at 30 and RE at 33 by extreme LBYM. My SWR is currently 2.6%. No stock options and an average salary under 40k.

I think LBYM is the hardest part, maybe especially when living in a consumer culture. This is harder than anything: harder than having kids. After all, kids don't spend much money; their parents do, which essentially means that kids cost as much as the parents can afford.

For me the trick was to adopt a DIY attitude and try to be as selfsufficient as possible. For example, we just switched the rear turn signal in the car for <$3. It would have cost $15 to have a garage do it. I maintain the car's tire pressure with a bicycle pump which (along with many other similar things) provide free exercise so I don't have to pay $40/month to sit on an exercycle in front of a big window.

One could argue that using a bicycle pump on a car tire is a silly thing to do, but how about riding a bike that is going nowhere by design? :-D

And so it goes. I spend about a quarter of what the average person does and when you think about it, what is really more convenient: Driving the car over the garage to have it fixed and then driving over to the gym to exercise; a total of 2 hours maybe, compared to staying at home and doing the above.

[FUEGO]

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Originally Posted by jacob One could argue that using a bicycle pump on a car tire is a silly thing to do, but how about riding a bike that is going nowhere by design? :-D

I just use my $6 DC powered car tire pump (w/ compressor) to pump my car tires, bike tires, and sports balls. Way cheaper than a bicycle pump!

Being FIRED by 33 - that is quite an accomplishment!

What is your rough annual spending if you don't mind telling?

[FIREd]

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Originally Posted by jacob I became FI at 30 and RE at 33 by extreme LBYM. My SWR is currently 2.6%. No stock options and an average salary under 40k. I think LBYM is the hardest part, maybe especially when living in a consumer culture. This is harder than anything: harder than having kids. After all, kids don't spend much money; their parents do, which essentially means that kids cost as much as the parents can afford. For me the trick was to adopt a DIY attitude and try to be as selfsufficient as possible. For example, we just switched the rear turn signal in the car for <$3. It would have cost $15 to have a garage do it. I maintain the car's tire pressure with a bicycle pump which (along with many other similar things) provide free exercise so I don't have to pay $40/month to sit on an exercycle in front of a big window. One could argue that using a bicycle pump on a car tire is a silly thing to do, but how about riding a bike that is going nowhere by design? :-D And so it goes. I spend about a quarter of what the average person does and when you think about it, what is really more convenient: Driving the car over the garage to have it fixed and then driving over to the gym to exercise; a total of 2 hours maybe, compared to staying at home and doing the above.

Are the famous Jacob, king of ERE? If you are, I really enjoy reading your blog. Welcome.

[jacob]

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Originally Posted by FUEGO I just use my $6 DC powered car tire pump (w/ compressor) to pump my car tires, bike tires, and sports balls. Way cheaper than a bicycle pump! Being FIRED by 33 - that is quite an accomplishment! What is your rough annual spending if you don't mind telling?

Well, I already had the bicycle pump. Rough annual spending is a little less than $7k.

[jacob]

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Originally Posted by FIREdreamer Are the famous Jacob, king of ERE? If you are, I really enjoy reading your blog. Welcome.

Yes I am. Much thanks :-)

[LARS]

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Originally Posted by jacob Well, I already had the bicycle pump. Rough annual spending is a little less than $7k.

More power to you if you can be happy on $7,000 a year. That is not, however, my idea of ER: not even close. But to each their own...