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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 08:22 AM   #41
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

Another thing my friend gripes about, and is quick to point out, is that "I don't get paid three months out of the year!" Umm, EXCUSE me?! The way I look at is is he gets a salary for the year, just like the rest of us. The only difference is I have to work 12 months per year to get mine, not 9 like him.

Of course, he doesn't want to see it that way. He just focuses on the 3 months that he doesn't get a paycheck. Or, if he wanted to get paid for those 3 months, he'd have to take a smaller paycheck year-round. Still comes out to the same at the end of the year, though. But I guess he just uses it as another cross to bear for his "plight".
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 08:42 AM   #42
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Originally Posted by Andre1969
Another thing my friend gripes about, and is quick to point out, is that "I don't get paid three months out of the year!" Umm, EXCUSE me?! The way I look at is is he gets a salary for the year, just like the rest of us. The only difference is I have to work 12 months per year to get mine, not 9 like him.

Of course, he doesn't want to see it that way. He just focuses on the 3 months that he doesn't get a paycheck. Or, if he wanted to get paid for those 3 months, he'd have to take a smaller paycheck year-round. Still comes out to the same at the end of the year, though. But I guess he just uses it as another cross to bear for his "plight".
Tell him to teach summer school, like my parents did! Geez, ask him what cheese he wants with that whine! :P He really undervalues his free time, perhaps because he has so much of it.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 08:59 AM   #43
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Originally Posted by wildcat
Most Phds don't pay much.* But there is one exception to the rule, Phd business professors.* Even the lower level professors are pulling down $70-80k and the older fellas are pulling down $120K+.* Not bad for the lifestyle.* All of their salary info is public info.
When I was in school at NYU, my finance and accountng professors were also beating off lucrative consulting gigs with a stick. Rates of $600 an hour and up were not uncommon.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 10:56 AM   #44
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

When I was working full time (electrical engineering) I always figured the more my colleagues knew about salary, the better off we all were. The IEEE (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers) used to publish a very thorough salary survey every other year. The survey presented national salary data by education level, experience, job function, geographic location, company size, . . . I would buy a copy of the survey and write a program that would allow engineers to enter their own information into it and then indicate typical salary by decile. That way everyone knew where they ranked relative the rest of the profession without having to discuss it with each other. I would distribute the program to everyone I worked with and anyone else who was interested. (Yeah, HR just loved me ).

When I became an Engineering Director, I used the same information to beat up HR to get higher pay for the engineers who were underpaid. I also required all the managers working with me to run the program for all their engineering reports and provide me with the data. We would have discussions about any outliers.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 11:05 AM   #45
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

The above approach is the counterpart to employer wage surveys. It is best done through an professional assn.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 11:59 AM   #46
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Originally Posted by Andre1969
Sorry bud, but nobody told you to go into that profession!
This goes to the heart of the matter. In most cases, salary comparisons are between unequal individuals -- especially discussions between friends who grew up together, went to college together, etc... People prioritize their lives differently. Some study hard from high school on, and go into relatively lucrative fields such as law, medicine and investment banking. Others pursue careers in the humanities or more altruistic fields. As the years go by, the former outstrip the latter many times in regards to earning power. Although envy is prevalent in comparisons of earning power, there's no inherent unfairness. People need to live with the choices they make. Most choices aren't permanent (i.e., one can always go to law school, get another degree in a different field, etc...) but inertia often sets in by one's late-20s/early-30s.

It's far easier to complain about how things are "unfair", rather than admit that you made the wrong choice (or would have chosent differently based on what you know now) and do something about it.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 03:08 PM   #47
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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It's far easier to complain about how things are "unfair", rather than admit that you made the wrong choice (or would have chosent differently based on what you know now) and do something about it.
Hmmm... let's see. If you did not choose law, medicine, investment banking or another other high paying avocations, you have made the wrong chocie. We should never complain about the system since it is fair. Lawyers, doctors, investment bankers, CEOs, movie stars, top athletes comand high pay because of their contributions to society.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 04:07 PM   #48
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Originally Posted by Brat
The above approach is the counterpart to employer wage surveys.* It is best done through an professional assn.
The CFA Institute publishes just such a suurvey. I found the numbers to be quite eye-popping when I plugged in my particulars.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 04:11 PM   #49
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Originally Posted by Spanky
Hmmm... let's see. If you did not choose law, medicine, investment banking or another other high paying avocations, you have made the wrong chocie. We should never complain about the system since it is fair. Lawyers, doctors, investment bankers, CEOs, movie stars, top athletes comand high pay because of their contributions to society.
Although I'm sure you meant to be sarcastic, you're nonetheless right. The free market values the contributions of the foregoing individuals more than the guy/gal who felt it was his life's dream to play the guitar, paint landscapes or give lectures on the works of Shakespeare. *The market most certainly values the foregoing individuals more than the guy/gal who drops out of high school, never goes to or finishes college, gets a degree in a relatively useless major, etc...

If you don't like the fact that people make more than you, then do something about it.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 04:23 PM   #50
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Originally Posted by Spanky
Hmmm... let's see. If you did not choose law, medicine, investment banking or another other high paying avocations, you have made the wrong chocie. We should never complain about the system since it is fair. Lawyers, doctors, investment bankers, CEOs, movie stars, top athletes comand high pay because of their contributions to society.
I think that jay's beef is that the envy and complaining is often directed at those in high-paying professions rather than at society. I worked really effin' hard and climbed some pretty ugly walls to get to where I am in my profession and earning power. It didn't fall out of the sky and land in my lap; I chose and stuck to my course. If you aren't happy with how society values your contributions, don't bitch to me. Either makee different choices or start a political campaign, wanker.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 05:09 PM   #51
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
...If you aren't happy with how society values your contributions, don't bitch to me.* Either makee different choices or start a political campaign, wanker.
I doubt name calling will be of much value in your argument. Many people here have worked plenty hard at their careers or businesses; some are highly valued by society but not in a financial sense. Teachers don't make much compared to other professions that require far less education. Most teachers I know have to have a Masters and continuing education every so many year to be at the top of their salary range. Other professions and many small businesses provide a much higher standard of living but are not as valued by society.

We all have to make the best of what we have and learn to live within our means. The means of some are just bigger than others and fairness has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 05:38 PM   #52
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

Far be it from me to look up to a pro athlete, doctor, lawyer, or whatever, simply because of their titles. I value people based on who they are, not what they do or how much money they make or blow. But when you think about it, for every pro athlete out there who's made it big, how many thousands tried for that dream and failed miserably, and are now working on a loading dock somewhere wasting their life fretting over what could have been?

And then, even if you do make the big time, well, just like the old song, "we'll never forget you till somebody new comes along". Or you could get a career-wrecking injury. And while a lot of these guys do live large, they often spend large and end up deep in debt.

So while our society may be twisted where these people get payed millions of bucks to play a kids' game while teachers just scrape by, that's how it is, and people know this when they strive for their careers.

As for my buddy who's a teacher, the difference in pay between him and me probably isn't all that great. I make $50K per year now, and I think he might make around $45K. When you figure that I'm 3 years older and have been in the workforce longer, that balances things a bit. By the time he's 3 years older, he might be making $50K or more.

Still, even on these relatively modest salaries, there's a vast disparity between us. He's always running around, eating out, using a lot of gas, racking up the miles on his car and wearing it out, and so forth. He has a part time job too, so combine the two and he's making more than I do.

Now there's nothing wrong with the lifestyle he chooses. If he enjoys going out more often and running all over the place, then more power to him. But then don't turn around and complain about how unfair the system is that I end up being so much better off financially than he is. It's more than just the salary. If it were reversed and I made $45K while he made $50K, it wouldn't make a difference. There's more to it than how much you make. How much you spend is also an awfully big factor!
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 05:50 PM   #53
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

Its no mystery how society values various professions: if the services a profession provides are widely desired and the ability to provide them is relatively rare, then the compensation will be high (e.g. top entertainers or athletes). If the services are not widely desired, or the ability to provide them is common (burgher flipping, ditch digging) then the compensation will be low. Supply and demand, like everything else.

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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-14-2005, 06:11 PM   #54
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

At least 4-5 of my closest friends know how much I make. We're pretty close so it's
not really a big deal. One of my friends and I have had a friendly rivarly for over 10 years.
We both graduated at about the same time but in different fields. He's a CS
major and I'm an EE. Everytime one us of gets a raise we call the other person to tell
them. Our salaries have always been very close even though he's had much more
responsibilities than me. One time, our yearly salaries were separated by $5!
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-15-2005, 06:56 AM   #55
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveR
I doubt name calling will be of much value in your argument.* Many people here have worked plenty hard at their careers or businesses; some are highly valued by society but not in a financial sense.* Teachers don't make much compared to other professions that require far less education.* Most teachers I know have to have a Masters and continuing education every so many year to be at the top of their salary range.* Other professions and many small businesses provide a much higher standard of living but are* not as valued by society.*

We all have to make the best of what we have and learn to live within our means.* The means of some are just bigger than others and fairness has nothing to do with it.*
Yup, but teachers, for example, made a conscious choice to pursue their career. That means they CHOSE to accept a less lucrative career, presumably for the other positives of the position. Those who spend time complaining about how society undervalues them are whining, plain and simple.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-15-2005, 07:42 AM   #56
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
I think that jay's beef is that the envy and complaining is often directed at those in high-paying professions rather than at society.* I worked really effin' hard and climbed some pretty ugly walls to get to where I am in my profession and earning power.* It didn't fall out of the sky and land in my lap; I chose and stuck to my course.* If you aren't happy with how society values your contributions, don't bitch to me.* Either makee different choices or start a political campaign, wanker.
Not exactly.* I believe that much of the envy and complaining is directed at the wrong person.* That is, such negativity is directed at those who have more, rather than the person (i.e. the one who is envious and complaining) who is ultimately responsible for the disparity.* Like Brewer, I worked very hard to get where I am.* Hard work in school and working 60-70 hour weeks for years without a real vacation.* For someone who didn't do any of the foregoing to complain that it's not "fair" for me to receive a high salary I have only one thing to say.*

I earned it.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-15-2005, 09:08 AM   #57
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
The CFA Institute publishes just such a suurvey. I found the numbers to be quite eye-popping when I plugged in my particulars.

In what way? I read the report and used the little calculator they have in the members area now. I was shocked at how close it was. It literally came within 2-3% of my current comp.

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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-15-2005, 09:25 AM   #58
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Originally Posted by saluki9

In what way?* I read the report and used the little calculator they have in the members area now.* I was shocked at how close it was.* It literally came within 2-3% of my current comp.* *

I found the numbers to be eye-popping because this is the first year I will (hopefully) be making that kind of comp.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-15-2005, 09:55 AM   #59
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

Now you guys are making me want to break the taboo and ask how much Saluki and Brewer are making or expecting to make.

I know what all my partners/shareholder make and they know what I make.

When I was an associate we were told not to share what we made but we had a Laurence type in our group who got us all to share. We effectively kept that a secret and it was useful in negotiations.
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?
Old 11-15-2005, 02:11 PM   #60
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Re: Discussing salary, a taboo not to be broken?

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Now you guys are making me want to break the taboo and ask how much Saluki and Brewer are making or expecting to make.
I'll answe like Chris Rock did when they asked him how much he made on SNL. "Doctor money" is my answer. I don't think I'll be buying a jet or a house on the lake with my bonus for the job, but I'm certainly not going to complain either. As I'm almost positive Brewer will attest, if I were to break it down hourly it wouldn't be so impressive. :P
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