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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-12-2005, 11:11 PM   #21
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Just got out of a meeting about this, good news is they are going to formally start a PIP on her (Personal Improvement Plan), which means she's got six months before the axe falls, even if she did nothing.* As far as your list nwsteve, where would behavior like this fall?:

"O.K., so you didn't do X, I need you to do X by October 1st, here are the steps and tools you need."

"Sure thing!"

October 1st...

"Hey, you didn't do X, what is the status on it?"*

Now randomly insert one of the following:

1. "You never told me to do X!"

2. "I told Joe I needed Y and he never got back to me, so I couldn't finish X!" (So why didn't you follow up with Joe or let us know earlier?)

3. "I was never trained how to do that!* I don't get support from management!" (Again, the date is looming on the calendar, shouldn't you say something earlier, besides, I trained you myself...)

Those were all direct quotes.* The funny thing is, the person is not being devious, she really believes she is the wronged party in all of the above!* Plus, she starts crying when a situation gets tense/confrontational.* I'm a sensitive guy, but crying when you get yelled at for forgetting your TPS report for the third time is just annoying.* Let's get a little perspective!* *
Laurance
No one said being a manager is a walk in the park.
I agree with your response with the crying strategy but unfortunately the manager in you has to make it clear that it is not a response that makes a difference.
The key is is to make the PIP as explicit as possible.* Do not leave anything to interpretation in the first phase.* And there are definately phases to do PIP right.* If it is to work, there has to be inspection and feedback frequently and early.* Do not wait until 6 months are over to tell the person they failed.* That is not an improvment plan but a delayed execution.
In the first weeks of the program, inspection can be as often as daily review of progress but certainly not less than weekly.* Hard to get correction when there is no feedback.
For example with the above sample of
"O.K., so you didn't do X, I need you to do X by October 1st, here are the steps and tools you need."
You will want to go a couple more steps--explicit discussion and agreement of what it looks like when X is being done correctly. What will happen if something goes wrong when X is being done and how quickly it will be done. etc etc.*
When they can get through several weeks meeting expectations, you can back the review down to perhaps bi-weekly or even longer if the "light" goes on BUT you do not want to abandon them.

You may find that after a couple of weeks the person getting the PIP says I do not want to do this anymore and leaves.*
You have done your duty as well as save everyone a lot of time not to mention severence and unemployment pay.
If they get it, you have had the joy of making a difference in a person's professional development.
Good luck!
nwsteve
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-12-2005, 11:15 PM   #22
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

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Originally Posted by vic
Nope. Also did not put the comments in there that I was told I should be a good woman and stay home in the kitchen and produce babies. I tend to ignore this stuff but I will not put up with violence directed at me
I absolutely see it your way. I just thought it was funny.

Ha
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 01:20 AM   #23
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

vic, nwsteve-this lady works in the department I'm leaving (refer to "I got the job" thread). I won't have much input in the future on her issues. Totally agree, people should have a chance to flourish. I definitely hear where you are coming from. But I need to shed some light on the nature of task "x". For example: she needed to get a letter from a vendor with a name correction for our security records. Not rocket science. It involves a phone call. But she feels because she sent one email six months ago that she has done all she can. What could you possibly do except make the phone call for her? I don't want anyone to think she is being set up to fail with tasks involving setting up distributed processing networks over an encrypted WAN through ten time zones or something....she just has no ability to prioritize, to see what's important, even when it is spelled out for her.

But you are right, the PIP is a legal ass covering for getting her fired. No doubt. At the same time she's spent two years in the position making over 70k and people can't point to one thing she has done. She was hired in for this job specifically. Sure she may not have gotten management support, or the proper training or whatever. But she never asked for it either. I understand the world takes all kinds, but this is no job for wall flowers, shrinking violets, etc.

You'll have to forgive me, Coctail hour at Waikiki beach (looking at Diamondhead as I type this) and I guess I've become a little impatient with her. I'm sure I'm suffering from a common personality flaw, where if a particular task comes easy to you, you have difficulty understanding why it isn't easy for others.
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 01:25 AM   #24
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
she's spent two years in the position making over 70k and people can't point to one thing she has done.
Ah, she has discovered the optimal path to early retirement. Stay employed, but don't work.
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 01:30 AM   #25
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

I'm going to stop now, I said I wasn't going to bad mouth her and that's what I did. Very nice lady, just drives me up the wall! :P
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 02:30 AM   #26
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGALT2U
Crying used to just piss me off, but I have mellowed since.

Let's see, my worst termination was...................OH, I remember!
An assistant accountant I hired about 1968 -69.* I interviewed him and
then ran him by my boss, The Controller.* We agreed he was the guy.
Once on board, the guy couldn't do anything.* It was as if he never
did any actual accounting in his life.* *He was gone quick.

Another time I interviewed 3 guys for an important management
position.* I hired one, promptly fired him and hired my 2nd choice;
also a bust.* After about 3 months I tracked down the 3rd guy.
He was still interested so we hired him.* The guy turned out to be absolute dynamite.* Terrific.* I interviewed in an office next to my home
and when I told my wife how great he was, she said she had seen all
3 candidates arrive and he was her first choice.* Why?* "He had the
best looking ass!"* *

JG
This story just makes it sound like you were incompetent as a hiring manager. If you had worked for me I would have demoted or fired you for this kind of costly debacle. . . seriously.
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 03:09 AM   #27
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

As a manager and director the part of the job that made me most uncomfortable was when I had to tell people I was dissatisfied with their performance. I used to stall and fret about confronting people for days before I would finally meet them to let them know I was unhappy. I never had to confront someone I chose to hire with a performance problem. I would have considered that a personal failure. And I never had to confront a direct report more than once. I think most people want to please their boss. A very honest and frank discussion always solved the problem -- even if it were uncomfortable for me.

In the last full-time full-time position I held, my job was to commercialize the technology developed by another organization. In the process of trying to do this, I discovered that the technology was pure research fraud . . . there was nothing real to commercialize. As I dug into the details it became clear that the fraud had been supported by the CTO and 2 of his VPs. They and their research staff had been rewarded highly with raises, bonuses and promotions for their fraudulent claims.

Because I had signed a 2-year contract that wasn't complete, my only viable option was to expose the fraud. It was an ugly political battle. By the time I was finished, two VPs, the CTO and 40 researchers lost their jobs. (In fact, the CEO also eventually lost his job, and while I don't think my effort was completely responsible for his ouster, I do believe it contributed.) Thirty or so of the people who lost their jobs were probably innocents. I felt awful. The experience had a lot to do with my decision to retire.

But as I've re-thought my experience since then, I've grown increasingly comfortable with my actions. I didin't start the fraud. I didn't hire 40 people to support the fraud. I did my best to place all of the people who I saw as innocent victims. (I was able to place 16 in other companies or organizations). And I did save the company several $100M, chasing a product that would never exist. I also helped them purge several worthless executives from their ranks. Today I feel like I did a good job in a difficult position. It was unpleasant at the time, but any other options I can think of were probably worse.

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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 05:38 AM   #28
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
This story just makes it sound like you were incompetent as a hiring manager.* If you had worked for me I would have demoted or fired you for this kind of costly debacle. . . seriously.
Don't be silly. I hired hundreds of people. You couldn't expect them to all work out. Now, living with a hire who was not cutting it might have justified showing me the door. FYI, in my entire working career
(long time, going back to high school) I never lost any job due to
my performance at that job. When I had a boss (meaning I did not control everything myself) I reached officer level in 1973 at age
29 and stayed there until I quit for good in 1998. I listed a couple of failures. What................ you expected me to bat 1.000?

JG
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 05:42 AM   #29
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

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Originally Posted by wab
Ah, she has discovered the optimal path to early retirement.* *Stay employed, but don't work.
That is a good deal. I came close a couple of times

JG
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 05:47 AM   #30
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
vic, nwsteve-this lady works in the department I'm leaving (refer to "I got the job" thread).* I won't have much input in the future on her issues.* Totally agree, people should have a chance to flourish.* I definitely hear where you are coming from.* But I need to shed some light on the nature of task "x".* For example:* she needed to get a letter from a vendor with a name correction for our security records.* Not rocket science.* It involves a phone call.* But she feels because she sent one email six months ago that she has done all she can.* What could you possibly do except make the phone call for her?* I don't want anyone to think she is being set up to fail with tasks involving setting up distributed processing networks over an encrypted WAN through ten time zones or something....she just has no ability to prioritize, to see what's important, even when it is spelled out for her.

But you are right, the PIP is a legal ass covering for getting her fired.* No doubt.* At the same time she's spent two years in the position making over 70k and people can't point to one thing she has done.* She was hired in for this job specifically.* Sure she may not have gotten management support, or the proper training or whatever.* But she never asked for it either.* I understand the world takes all kinds, but this is no job for wall flowers, shrinking violets, etc.*

You'll have to forgive me, Coctail hour at Waikiki beach (looking at Diamondhead as I type this) and I guess I've become a little impatient with her.* I'm sure I'm suffering from a common personality flaw, where if a particular task comes easy to you, you have difficulty understanding why it isn't easy for others.
I have empathy and totally understand why terminating someone
(or even reprimanding them) is gut-wrenching for most people.
But, it comes with being in charge. I honestly believe that my
naturally confrontational personality helped me a lot. People above you
see that you are not afraid to make tough decisions. Everyone
can respect that, sometimes even the dumpee.

JG
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 10:08 AM   #31
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
This story just makes it sound like you were incompetent as a hiring manager. If you had worked for me I would have demoted or fired you for this kind of costly debacle. . . seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
As a manager and director the part of the job that made me most uncomfortable was when I had to tell people I was dissatisfied with their performance. I used to stall and fret about confronting people for days before I would finally meet them to let them know I was unhappy. I never had to confront someone I chose to hire with a performance problem. I would have considered that a personal failure. And I never had to confront a direct report more than once. I think most people want to please their boss. A very honest and frank discussion always solved the problem -- even if it were uncomfortable for me.

In the last full-time full-time position I held, my job was to commercialize the technology developed by another organization. In the process of trying to do this, I discovered that the technology was pure research fraud . . . there was nothing real to commercialize. As I dug into the details it became clear that the fraud had been supported by the CTO and 2 of his VPs. They and their research staff had been rewarded highly with raises, bonuses and promotions for their fraudulent claims.

Because I had signed a 2-year contract that wasn't complete, my only viable option was to expose the fraud. It was an ugly political battle. By the time I was finished, two VPs, the CTO and 40 researchers lost their jobs. (In fact, the CEO also eventually lost his job, and while I don't think my effort was completely responsible for his ouster, I do believe it contributed.) Thirty or so of the people who lost their jobs were probably innocents. I felt awful. The experience had a lot to do with my decision to retire.

But as I've re-thought my experience since then, I've grown increasingly comfortable with my actions. I didin't start the fraud. I didn't hire 40 people to support the fraud. I did my best to place all of the people who I saw as innocent victims. (I was able to place 16 in other companies or organizations). And I did save the company several $100M, chasing a product that would never exist. I also helped them purge several worthless executives from their ranks. Today I feel like I did a good job in a difficult position. It was unpleasant at the time, but any other options I can think of were probably worse.
Wow SG!!! You are simply perfect in a highly imperfect world, and quite modest I must add, . . .seriously.

JG, I agree, pretty silly.

BTW the most wildly successful people I have met (mostly business owner-founder types I have met through my VC's) readily admit, and even laugh about the many mistakes they have made over time.
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 03:35 PM   #32
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

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Originally Posted by TargaDave
Wow* SG!!! You are simply perfect in a highly imperfect world, and quite modest I must add, . . .seriously.
And he is not alone. This board is full of perfect people. Some, like JG are perfectly constituted, even though very occasionally their results don't quite make it.

Ha
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 04:12 PM   #33
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

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Wow* SG!!! You are simply perfect in a highly imperfect world, and quite modest I must add, . . .seriously.
Well, thanks. I've never claimed to be perfect, but I never had a job where rapid hiring and firing of three people for one position would have been tolerated. Most companies understand that recruiting and starting a new employee is a costly event. And making a wrong decision also brings on potential legal issues. Hiring managers are expected to understand what is needed to get the job done and to effectively choose from amoung the available candidates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TargaDave
BTW the most wildly successful people I have met (mostly business owner-founder types I have met through my VC's) readily admit, and even laugh about the many mistakes they have made over time.

Well . . . that's a strange statement. But I will tell you that this kind of performance and attitude would not have been encouraged or promoted in any company I ever worked in. These "wildly successful" people you talk about would have failed in the places I worked. Maybe I was lucky to get to work with more competent hiring managers than you and JG.
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-13-2005, 04:46 PM   #34
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

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Originally Posted by HaHa
And he is not alone. This board is full of perfect people. Some, like JG are perfectly constituted, even though very occasionally their results don't quite make it.

Ha
Yeah, I'm only human after all

JG
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-14-2005, 04:06 AM   #35
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
These "wildly successful" people you talk about would have failed in the places I worked. Maybe I was lucky to get to work with more competent hiring managers than you and JG.
These "wildly successful" mistake making people CREATED the large corporations where you, I and many others have worked at one time or another. They're called entreprenuers.

You're right about one thing, these founders-entreprenuers often don't fit in to well into their own companies in the milking mature stage where much of the original risk taking innovation is also long gone. Nothin new here, all pretty well documented in the business literature.

People who never venture away from the womb just don't get it.
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-14-2005, 08:55 AM   #36
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

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Originally Posted by TargaDave
These "wildly successful" mistake making people CREATED the large corporations where you, I and many others have worked at one time or another.* They're called entreprenuers.

You're right about one thing, these founders-entreprenuers often don't fit in to well into their own companies in the milking mature stage where much of the original risk taking innovation is also long gone.* Nothin new here, all pretty well documented in the business literature.

People who never venture away from the womb just don't get it.
Damn straight!

JG
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-14-2005, 02:30 PM   #37
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

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Damn straight!

JG
Oh, I see. It is better to be clueless and inefficient when hiring. Plus the legal risk of rapid hiring and firing is a "good thing" (as Martha might say).

Your comments about entrepenuers are very interesting to me. I work 1/4 time for a start-up company now and surprisingly, these people are even more cautious about hiring decisions than the fortune 500 companies where I worked most of my career. They feel like they can't afford to make any hiring mistakes. In fact, the first company I ever worked for was a mid-sized (about 2000 people) company that was still run by the founders (who had started the company in a garage). The two founders still personnaly interviewed every engineer candidate and were very selective.

I don't doubt that you and JG have a different experience than I do related to hiring practices. But I do find it difficult to believe that any rational and truely successful business person would believe that quick, haphazard hiring and firing to fill a position is better than learning how to do it right the first time. Maybe that's just me.

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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-14-2005, 04:09 PM   #38
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG

I don't doubt that you and JG have a different experience than I do related to hiring practices. But I do find it difficult to believe that any rational and truely successful business person would believe that quick, haphazard hiring and firing to fill a position is better than learning how to do it right the first time. Maybe that's just me.
I agree, that is just a lawsuit waiting to happen.
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-15-2005, 02:14 PM   #39
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
Oh, I see.* It is better to be clueless and inefficient when hiring.
We might lose a little on 90% of our stocks before we sell them, but eventually we'll find those ten-baggers.

We might have to fire a lot of new employees, but eventually we'll hire the next Jack Welch!

We might lose a little on each transaction, but we sure make it up on volume...

Using Laurence's original post as an example (sorry if it drags us back on topic!), it would seem to be far cheaper to try to improve an employee that you've already hired than it would be to just go get a new one. (That's even been verified by the U.S. military.) Likewise it's far cheaper to spend a little effort, time, & money on the screening process than it would be to rapidly dispose of several candidates (using a flawed screening process) in the hope that blind luck will eventually stumble across an acorn.

When you add litigation to the potential costs, improving performance or hiring right the first time is even cheaper.

But let's look at our vocabulary. If you cautiously use conservative accepted practices in screening & hiring employees, then you're boring. If you rapidly, dynamically, emotionally, yet randomly "venture away from the womb", then you're an entrepreneur!

I wonder which of the two is likely to see ER as a more "successful" career option.
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?
Old 10-15-2005, 07:30 PM   #40
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Re: Ever had to take part in a lynching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
We might lose a little on 90% of our stocks before we sell them, but eventually we'll find those ten-baggers.

We might have to fire a lot of new employees, but eventually we'll hire the next Jack Welch!

We might lose a little on each transaction, but we sure make it up on volume...

Using Laurence's original post as an example (sorry if it drags us back on topic!), it would seem to be far cheaper to try to improve an employee that you've already hired than it would be to just go get a new one.* (That's even been verified by the U.S. military.)* Likewise it's far cheaper to spend a little effort, time, & money on the screening process than it would be to rapidly dispose of several candidates (using a flawed screening process) in the hope that blind luck will eventually stumble across an acorn.

When you add litigation to the potential costs, improving performance or hiring right the first time is even cheaper.

But let's look at our vocabulary.* If you cautiously use conservative accepted practices in screening & hiring employees, then you're boring.* If you rapidly, dynamically, emotionally, yet randomly "venture away from the womb", then you're an entrepreneur!

I wonder which of the two is likely to see ER as a more "successful" career option.
I never had much luck in "rehabbing" nonperforming employees.
Losers continued to be losers and winners continued to be winners.

JG
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