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Old 06-25-2019, 12:14 PM   #41
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I met my husband about a year after both our divorces. My kids were grown and his were 8 and 10. I was in better shape as he lost his job and couldn’t find another. He was giving up his apartment and quit opening his mail because he couldn’t pay his bills. I told him to stop wallowing and get a survival job. He got 2. I sent him to consumer credit to negotiate his debt. He moved in and the cost of my condo was based on what I could afford to pay. I paid for food so he could concentrate on his debt. After 2 years he got a job in his field. Then he split the cost of food and paid for some other things. We married 5 years later once he was out of debt. It was a rough financial start but 21 years later still happy together. In retirement we are better off financially together because we left our pensions to each other when one of us dies.
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Old 06-25-2019, 09:19 PM   #42
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When DH and I met 24 years ago, he was freshly divorced after being separated for about a year. He was looking at about 8 years of child support, which took nearly half of his paycheck during that time. But he never complained about being short on money, and always paid his bills and his share of the trips and other things we did together. I've always made about 50% more than him, but he never expected me to pay more.

It was clear early on from our habits that we were on the same page regarding money. We'd both always carefully consider how much pleasure and use we'd get from a purchase before buying, save up to pay cash for large items such as vehicles instead of taking out a loan, buy used whenever it made sense, avoid waste, never carry a credit card balance, and stash extra cash instead of looking for ways to spend it. It was clear that neither of us were much impressed by expensive things, and preferred to live rather modestly with the goal of retiring early. Over the years we've shared our progress towards this goal.

So we never had to have "a talk" about money. But if we'd met just recently, I would at some point want to share our financial numbers to see how they might affect our goals. I'd expect that in a promising new relationship, the comfort level would be high enough that such topics would come up naturally after a few weeks or a couple months and proceed without drama.
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:30 AM   #43
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I started dating for the last time at 52 after being widowed . If anyone brought up financial anything at the first date I would think they were crazy . The first several dates are getting to know each other and whether you have anything in common .When it moves to a more serious point is when to bring up financials.
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:01 AM   #44
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There are potentially some significant financial benefits to being married, as opposed to being single, in retirement. The ones I'm aware of (I would be interested to hear what other ones there are that I haven't listed below):

-With the latest tax reforms, there is now often a significant"marriage benefit" in federal income taxation, at the income levels of most retirees who are drawing social security and have some dividends/RMD's.
-Spousal social security benefits
-More favorable RMD schedule for inherited spousal retirement accounts (With pending legislation which would require these accounts to be withdrawn in their entirety within 10 years for non-spouses, this may be even more the case).
-In my state (California), spouse inherits low property tax rate for home (but still gets the step-up in basis for capital gains taxes if the home is eventually sold).
-Some retirees have pensions with spousal survivor's benefits.

So for many couples, there may be some very good financial reasons to get married in retirement (though of course the non-financial issues trump financial considerations). It seems to me that it's expensive to be single in retirement!
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:11 AM   #45
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There are potentially some significant financial benefits to being married, as opposed to being single, in retirement.
And there are some financial downsides as well depending on whose SS# various taxable income sources are linked to. It requires a close look.
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:19 AM   #46
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And there are some financial downsides as well depending on whose SS# various taxable income sources are linked to. It requires a close look.
This is very true. The best way to know for sure is to run pro forma returns. Turbotax has a "what if" feature that is helpful. There are some income tax "cliffs" with respect to social security taxation, net investment income, and ACA subsidies whose effects are very difficult to assess.
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Old 06-26-2019, 12:57 PM   #47
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There are potentially some significant financial benefits to being married, as opposed to being single, in retirement. The ones I'm aware of (I would be interested to hear what other ones there are that I haven't listed below):
IRMAA adjustments to Medicare premiums are more draconian for single people. My Dad is paying more now after my Mom died because he has the same income but files single instead of MFJ.

On the other side of the coin, some pensions go away if the person remarries. I know a couple who is just "church married" but not "government married" for exactly this reason. (It is my understanding that they are "church married" because the husband's son doesn't want them living in sin, as the phrase goes.)
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Old 06-26-2019, 01:18 PM   #48
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Is IRMAA really a big deal?

In an extreme case, where a couple was making just under $170K and no IRMAA adjustment, and one dies and IF the other was still making about that much, they would have a $433/month adjustment. That's $5000/yr, not chump change, but we are talking about someone having a MAGI of nearly $170K, not to mention any assets they could spend down tax free. And with just the loss of one SS check, they probably drop below $160K for an adjustment of $352/month, about $4000/yr. Again, we're not talking about someone trying to eke out a living on SS alone. Is the IRMAA adjustment really a burden on your Dad?

This is a lot less than many of us would lose if we went $1 over the ACA subsidy limit of ~$48K for a single, and for many in that income bracket that really is a hardship.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:31 PM   #49
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Is IRMAA really a big deal?

In an extreme case, where a couple was making just under $170K and no IRMAA adjustment, and one dies and IF the other was still making about that much, they would have a $433/month adjustment. That's $5000/yr, not chump change, but we are talking about someone having a MAGI of nearly $170K, not to mention any assets they could spend down tax free. And with just the loss of one SS check, they probably drop below $160K for an adjustment of $352/month, about $4000/yr. Again, we're not talking about someone trying to eke out a living on SS alone. Is the IRMAA adjustment really a burden on your Dad?
Well, my Mother was Scottish so I got the impression that part of the way to financial success and well-being was to watch the small things. $4K or 5K per year, as you note, is not chump change.

I don't recall exactly how much of an IRMAA adjustment my Dad had after my Mom died. I do remember having to figure it out, because his SS check went down and, well, in my family of origin we investigate those things and figure out what's happening.

Overall, though, both SS and the IRMAA adjustment are relatively small things in my Dad's financial world. I apologize if I gave the wrong impression in my previous post. I'm recovering from sinus surgery and am not yet back to 100% and couldn't/didn't think of a better and more precise wording.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:58 PM   #50
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Overall, though, both SS and the IRMAA adjustment are relatively small things in my Dad's financial world. I apologize if I gave the wrong impression in my previous post. I'm recovering from sinus surgery and am not yet back to 100% and couldn't/didn't think of a better and more precise wording.
I hear a lot about IRMAA, not just your post, so I was trying to figure out the impact, and asked to see if there was something I'm missing. Draconian was the term that triggered it for me, for about a 3% surcharge, I think?
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:13 PM   #51
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I hear a lot about IRMAA, not just your post, so I was trying to figure out the impact, and asked to see if there was something I'm missing. Draconian was the term that triggered it for me, for about a 3% surcharge, I think?
If a couple is earning $100K, one passes away, they lose the lesser of the SS pensions as well. If that keeps the survivor at $86K. IRMAA kicks in for both plans B&D - another $1K of after tax income. Perhaps a bit of license to call it draconian, but certainly painful.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:00 PM   #52
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That was in my post. Did you miss the part where my "spending habits" were due to my dying mother's medical expenses? After she died, that spending stopped and I was able to crawl to solvency for the first time in my life.


Sorry. Grrrrrr. I am guilty of not thoroughly reading posts. Don’t have the time so please forgive me. I’ve had plenty of medical expenses due to my first wife who died at 50.

Anyway, I have enjoyed reading some of the responses. Both my wife and I were widows. We didn’t talk about salaries but she knew I made good money and I knew she managed money well and had PERS retirement. When we were very serious about our relationship I sat down and wrote out a financial plan if we were married. She had talked about living together and I wanted to set an example of my commitment so the kids could see how serious I was.

She gave up $1,200/month tax free of Veterans benefits. But I eventually told her what I had saved and how it would make up for that forever. Good news is if I kick off she can get that benefit back plus a larger state benefit. Not giving her any ideas if you know what I mean.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:11 PM   #53
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Sorry. Grrrrrr. I am guilty of not thoroughly reading posts. Don’t have the time so please forgive me. I’ve had plenty of medical expenses due to my first wife who died at 50.

Anyway, I have enjoyed reading some of the responses. Both my wife and I were widows. We didn’t talk about salaries but she knew I made good money and I knew she managed money well and had PERS retirement. When we were very serious about our relationship I sat down and wrote out a financial plan if we were married. She had talked about living together and I wanted to set an example of my commitment so the kids could see how serious I was.

She gave up $1,200/month tax free of Veterans benefits. But I eventually told her what I had saved and how it would make up for that forever. Good news is if I kick off she can get that benefit back plus a larger state benefit. Not giving her any ideas if you know what I mean.
No problem.

It'll be our little secret.

I wish you both well. Thanks for adding your story.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:23 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by RunningBum View Post
I hear a lot about IRMAA, not just your post, so I was trying to figure out the impact, and asked to see if there was something I'm missing. Draconian was the term that triggered it for me, for about a 3% surcharge, I think?
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If a couple is earning $100K, one passes away, they lose the lesser of the SS pensions as well. If that keeps the survivor at $86K. IRMAA kicks in for both plans B&D - another $1K of after tax income. Perhaps a bit of license to call it draconian, but certainly painful.
Yeah, draconian wasn't the right word. I was just trying to say that if you lose your spouse and your income doesn't drop by very much, then you get hit with a worse IRMAA surcharge than you would if you were still married.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:46 PM   #55
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Yeah, draconian wasn't the right word. I was just trying to say that if you lose your spouse and your income doesn't drop by very much, then you get hit with a worse IRMAA surcharge than you would if you were still married.
OK, and I didn't mean to pick on you. It just triggered the question.

Is the IRMAA hit higher than the tax bracket hit, where a lot more of the income for a single is taxed at 22%? By my very rough calcs on MichaleB's numbers, you'd pay ~$3000 more in income taxes, and about $1000 more with IRMAA. In the very worst case of $170K income, it'd be about $9000 more in tax, and ~$3600 more IRMAA. I did this very quickly, with standard and over 65 deduction, and may have missed something, just trying to get a ball park estimate.

The tax bracket change is about 3x the hit, though the double whammy doesn't help, and maybe wasn't expected.
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:56 PM   #56
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OK, and I didn't mean to pick on you. It just triggered the question.

Is the IRMAA hit higher than the tax bracket hit, where a lot more of the income for a single is taxed at 22%? By my very rough calcs on MichaleB's numbers, you'd pay ~$3000 more in income taxes, and about $1000 more with IRMAA. In the very worst case of $170K income, it'd be about $9000 more in tax, and ~$3600 more IRMAA. I did this very quickly, with standard and over 65 deduction, and may have missed something, just trying to get a ball park estimate.

The tax bracket change is about 3x the hit, though the double whammy doesn't help, and maybe wasn't expected.
No worries.

Offhand I don't know how people would define "higher". Certainly my Dad got hit with both the tax bracket effect and the IRMAA effect and they are in parallel so you get hit twice. And to your last sentence, yes, the tax bracket effect was expected but IRMAA wasn't expected (and came along a year later I think).

I'd rather not disclose my Dad's specific numbers because (a) I don't have his permission, (b) I'm not sure what his exact numbers are, and (c) his situation wouldn't be any one else's anyways. IRMAA surcharge brackets and income tax brackets are easily google-able anyway. The numbers you mention seem ballpark accurate, although the income tax change would obviously be dependent on the relative size of the two SS benefits and any pension losses vs. other income sources.
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Old 07-02-2019, 05:56 PM   #57
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I don't think it's that simple. I've come to conclude that we are all the product of nature and nurture, in varying degrees, and the "nurture" part sometimes comes in the form of counter-examples. For example I have heard some people say that they learned how NOT to handle money because of their experiences growing up with parents who were always in debt and struggling financially.

Also, I think the type and amount of debt matters. I am less critical of someone who carries reasonable mortgage and student loan debt as I am of someone who carries high interest credit card or consumer debt. Having said all of that, I agree that if someone over the age of 35-40 is up to their eyeballs in consumer debt they are unlikely to change.
This is exactly what has happened to me and my wife. We watched both set of parents do crazy things and be broke. Never have enough to retire or even have a good SS check because of poor work history. We watched it and discussed it when we were very young......married young. Then we decided to always save something. Even when the kids were small. We also have lived below our means and have recently retired. I believe we will be ok. I just hope our children are able to save
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Old 07-02-2019, 06:35 PM   #58
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Yikes...under 18? We used to call that jail-bait.

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Ha Ha! The last date I had was with the late DW. On our first couple of dates she was 18 and I was 29. She was so poor, I took her clothes shopping so we could go on a nice date and for interviews. She had been living with her brother and his wife but soon had her own apartment and paid all her bills, working two and sometimes three jobs to make ends meet. She knew I was at least somewhat good with money because she worked as a teller where I banked. We were married when she was 19.

We were married for just under 30 years when she passed away. That was almost 10 years ago. I am finally getting to the point that I might try a date, but there doesn't seem much interest in an old mountain hermit with or without finances. I have no clue what I would do about broaching the subject of money. I would just pay the tab for a dinner or evening out as I do with friends and family.
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Old 07-04-2019, 06:18 AM   #59
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I am still searching for a partner. I wish I knew the answer to your question. I did put directly in my dating profile that I was on the FIRE path and looking for someone who was also on the path to financial Independence. I don't think you have to talk about money to know if you have compatible spending habits. That will come with dating. I will want to know someone's debt status. I'm debt free and not willing to go back! Net worth doesn't need to be discussed until making life long plans together.
Anyone have plans to start a FIRE dating site? I'll join 😁
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Old 07-04-2019, 12:11 PM   #60
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I wish I could find a good FIRE partner. But to me it's more than just understanding finances. I don't want a man who thinks he needs to "take are of the little lady" or who wants a nurse / housekeeper/ whatever or who is looking at me as a blank check.

Now, I think if I get involved with someone, they will most likely have kids/grandkids like me. So if it gets serious, part of it will be a "business transaction" so his kids know I'm not after his money/inheritance and vice versa .
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