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Re: $H!T
Old 10-07-2004, 03:17 PM   #61
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Re: $H!T

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I'm a Boomer and this thread is why I left work.

I'm exhausted just reading it!

Second to Cutthroat's vote.
Managing people is an all consuming but essential necessity for any manager.
One of the reason I consult on it and not manage people any more--way too tiring. :-)
nwsteve
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-07-2004, 04:16 PM   #62
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Re: $H!T

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I'm a Boomer and this thread is why I left work.

I'm exhausted just reading it!
Ah, fresh off the fly-stream comes the voice of reason

Actually, Cut-throat, it's been a long time, but discussions like that (causing flash-backs of days gone by), should be helpful for anyone that thinks "maybe I should have stuck around a little longer"
By the way, I meant to tell you how much i enjoyed your Alaska fishing trip pictures. The only fishing I do anymore is local streams, and anything over one and a half pounds is not very common. But I don't go fly-fishing for production. (I fly-fish to hide from my chores

Regards, Jarhead

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Re: $H!T
Old 10-07-2004, 04:53 PM   #63
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Re: $H!T

Law firms and public accounting firms have similar problems. One of the reasons why many juniors today aren't willing to the heavy bucket down a long road is that they see different risks and rewards than those who have. The cultural contract between employees and management was broken in the 70's and we are seeing the impact. It doesn't matter that the organizational culture in a specific firm is different; today's employees don't trust that it won't change.

BTW- one way to leverage juniors who don't like the grind is to find them a position with a client (assuming that you don't practice criminal law!).

Back to poor Brewer1234.. Don't hang around for some leverage in the future. Revisit my earlier post and plan an exit on a high note.
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-07-2004, 06:13 PM   #64
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Re: $H!T

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Law firms and public accounting firms have similar problems. *One of the reasons why many juniors today aren't willing to the heavy bucket down a long road is that they see different risks and rewards than those who have. *The cultural contract between employees and management was broken in the 70's and we are seeing the impact. *It doesn't matter that the organizational culture in a specific firm is different; today's employees don't trust that it won't change.

Hereís a little bit of recent history that may shed some light on why associates in many law firms donít trust partners these days.

During 1998-2001, hundreds of law firms hired large numbers of associates to take advantage of the explosion in legal work associated with the dot-com economy. In other words, the partners wanted to leverage as many associates as possible to make as much money as possible. The associates were told to do the work, and many sacrificed tremendously to do it, working 70, 80 and sometimes 100 hour weeks at a time. Admittedly, those associates were well compensated for their efforts. When the dot-com bubble burst, law firms laid off those same associates into a market that couldnít absorb them. The layoffs were conducted through overly-strict, or even trumped up reviews to disguise the fact that such firms had no work for them to do. This, of course, destroyed many associatesí self-esteem, as well as their careers. Why? Because such firms didnít want to get a reputation with future law school graduating classes that they werenít doing well, and therefore job security (much less a chance of making partner) was minimal.
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-08-2004, 05:20 AM   #65
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Re: $H!T

Cut-throat, it is tiring. Why else would I frequent this board? I got to work about an hour ago. I have a hearing at 9:30. When the hearing is over, I am cutting out for the weekend. The spouse and I are going motorcycling in Wisconsin for a few days. Probably the last time for the year. I can't believe how warm it is for October.

Any associates out there listening? Leave early today and enjoy the weekend. You too, Brewer.

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Re: $H!T
Old 10-08-2004, 06:34 AM   #66
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Re: $H!T

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Cut-throat, it is tiring. *Why else would I frequent this board? *I got to work about an hour ago. *I have a hearing at 9:30. *When the hearing is over, I am cutting out for the weekend. *The spouse and I are going motorcycling in Wisconsin for a few days. *Probably the last time for the year. *I can't believe how warm it is for October.

Any associates out there listening? *Leave early today and enjoy the weekend. *You too, Brewer.

Martha
Hey, I am out of here by 5PM on the nose most days. Today I will likely cut out a bit early.
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-08-2004, 08:05 AM   #67
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Re: $H!T

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This is just great news. As soon as the boomers retire, we'll have fewer workers, and it turns out most of those remaining workers don't want to work very hard. I obviously have no problem with that on an individual basis, but as a country we're doomed.
Honestly, I think you're absolutely dead wrong. Gen X is willing to work - get this - harder than the generation prior. I am 30 and in management - lower management, but I'm still in the top 150 and tagged in the succession planning. I've been generating ideas since out of college - the last one implemented here added an incremental $1mm to the bottom line. Could a 20-something have done that 30 years ago, back in the old caste system, "pay-yer-dues-junior" days? I've worked 30-odd hours straight and worked 80-hour weeks. I've done it, but it will not be a habit. But if it's needed for a project and it's an exception-type event, I'm a professional; get it done, find a way.

GenX wants to work on our terms, not the traditional ones. And our terms have been modified by what we've seen our parents gone through. Boomers tripled the rate of divorce and doubled the amount of kids born out of wedlock - isn't it natural to think we'd learn something from that? In the 80's, every accounting grad from college was going to make partner or be CFO. I don't know that I want that level of committment.

Ultimately, the boomers were willing to work hard for money. GenX will work hard for love. If we believe in it, we'll work like sled dogs - witness the massive hours pumped in at the dot-bombs. The people believed in what they were doing. Kind of a shame none of them knew jack about a business plan, metrics, profits, or organizational structure, but hell, everyone was blinded for awhile there.

At heart, I'm an optimist. Right now the company is in existance that will topple Wal-Mart. Some corporation is being formed, or dreamed, that will crumble the tower of Home Depot. It's easy to look at the GenX slacker image on "Friends", working at some coffee shop, and forget that the vast majority of us are career driven - but as we would say, not driven to excess. I want to see every one of my kids little league games. I want to see their first play. I want to be at home with them and raise them and impart my interest and values and see them grow. I am not willing to work 70 hours a week, regardless of the pay. I have friends that will, but they are the exception. I don't measure my success by a McMansion or a BMW. I don't need an Armani suit, or a riding mower, or a stainless steel fridge, or a granite countertop. The boomers were the first to discover that money doesn't lead to happiness. You know what they did? Buy bigger houses. Contrast this to X - Honda will soon be importing a smaller car than the civic; because Gen X believes the civic is too big and overpriced! Toyota started a whole new brand of cheap cars. It's not that X can't afford a Camry - we choose not to.

So you're worried about the future? I disagree - those companies that adapt to their workforce and harness their talent to produce an exception product will always do well. But those companies with a mediocre product that don't respect their people and don't try and retain talent? Yeah, when the consumerism wave starts to fade, those companies are in trouble.

Wanna see the kids at the head of the class?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4787767
They're not acutally true X-ers, but indicative of the change going on - if you've got talent, a company has a use for you.

Sunrunner4 - cog in the corporate machine.

PS - as a side note, who do the Boomers expect to sell those massive places to? I look at some of the 4000 sq/ft monstrosities and think. "gee, that's a lot to clean", and, "what would I do with a [whatever room]".

PPS - I say that but would secretly love an old victorian on a nice classic block and damn the cost.

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Re: $H!T
Old 10-08-2004, 08:56 AM   #68
 
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Re: $H!T

Hello Sunrunner 4. I agree that Free Enterprise
(and the Gen Xers) could solve a lot of problems, if
the government stays out of the way.

John Galt
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-08-2004, 09:38 AM   #69
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Re: $H!T

I've always liked the idea of a kinder, gentler economy: lower consumption coupled with lower productivity. We'd take a big one-time hit in GDP, but then you could still grow things at a reasonable rate. If that's the GenX plan, just give me a heads-up before it kicks in so I can get out of the stock market in time
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-08-2004, 09:57 AM   #70
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Re: $H!T

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I've always liked the idea of a kinder, gentler economy: lower consumption coupled with lower productivity. We'd take a big one-time hit in GDP, but then you could still grow things at a reasonable rate. If that's the GenX plan, just give me a heads-up before it kicks in so I can get out of the stock market in time
Heh, head's up - I'd be willing to bet that there is a higher-than-average percentage of LBYM-living FIRE-hoping libertarians in the GenX ranks. That said, the non-two-party-"anarchist" vote is probably always bigger with the young.

But we're all jaded in our tender years, and don't think the government will not meddle with glee with trade, regulations, taxes (always the favorite behavior inducement mechanism), etc.

Besides, the retiring boomers are still going to live like kings during retirement (until they meet that hard wall of reality, of course, which many of them are ignoring nicely). Also, the consumerism trend is seeming to continue, oddly, with GenY (and whatever is coming after them, I disremember the name), who, from what I've read (that's a lot of commas so far), hold nearly the same values / beliefs / morals / etc as the Boomers.

Sunrunner4

PS - CMGi is still going to the moon!!!!
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I'm happy to turn the workplace over to GenX...
Old 10-08-2004, 10:22 AM   #71
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I'm happy to turn the workplace over to GenX...

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Right now the company is in existance that will topple Wal-Mart.
CostCo.

Quote:
Some corporation is being formed, or dreamed, that will crumble the tower of Home Depot.
Lowe's. (Although it's not doing it in my neighborhood.)

As for those 4000 sq ft homes, record & watch HGTV's "Dream House". (You have to record it because they sweep the camera too quickly over some of the more blatantly materialistic items.) It just can't last.

But then every time I say that, Oprah & Trump think of a way to prove me wrong...
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-08-2004, 01:58 PM   #72
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Re: $H!T

That was a great rant Sunrunner, and I agree with you 100%. Gen X would rather take less money to be happy. On the other hand Gen X is perfectly willing to work hard -- but only if it believes in what it's doing.

The seniority system is inefficient, since it bases its decisions on longevity rather than productivity or innovation. In years past, many law firms allowed their senior partners to collect millions, while lunching their way through the day. This, of course, was perceived as their reward for building the firm and leveraging younger lawyers to work their clients. Today, everyone is expected to bill time to client files, or work hard to bring in business. If you can't/won't do either, a firm has little use for you anymore.
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-08-2004, 02:11 PM   #73
 
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Re: $H!T

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That was a great rant Sunrunner, and I agree with you 100%. Gen X would rather take less money to be happy. On the other hand Gen X is perfectly willing to work hard -- but only if it believes in what it's doing.
Boomers started out this way. Witness the 1960's. Civil rights struggles, Vietnam War Protests, Women's rights etc. - But money rules in the U.S.A., so the ones that followed this path are mostly kept quiet. The ones that sold out are heard loud and clear. I predict that Gen X er's will follow a similar path. The 'Sell Outs' of your generation will embarrass you more than the Sellouts of the Boomer Generation.

The poster boy of Sellouts of the Boomers is Senator Norm Coleman of Minnesota. Former Vietnam War 1960's protester, Former Democrat. Now Republican Norm Coleman stands for pretty much all that I loathe.
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-08-2004, 05:28 PM   #74
 
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Re: $H!T

Well, he's not a boomer, but Zell Miller is kind of my
hero right now (along with TH and unclemick of course )

John Galt
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-10-2004, 01:44 PM   #75
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Re: $H!T

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Boomers started out this way. Witness the 1960's. Civil rights struggles, Vietnam War Protests, Women's rights etc. - But money rules in the U.S.A., so the ones that followed this path are mostly kept quiet. The ones that sold out are heard loud and clear. I predict that Gen X er's will follow a similar path.
Then again, perhaps some Gen-Xers, such as those about whom Martha has been complaining, are getting an earlier start than the Boomers did when it comes to wanting money. In fact, those Gen-Xers who go after the money now, and save rather than spend it, will be well on their way to FI/RE than the Boomers of today. This may be what the Boomers are really upset about. Some Gen-Xers don't want to "wait their turn" to get paid for their hard work. They don't want to be "leveraged" to make substantial profits for their employers, particularly when there is no guaranty -- more likely the opposite -- that they'll ever get to share in the fruits of their hard work in building or perpetuating the business.
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-10-2004, 04:45 PM   #76
 
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Re: $H!T

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Then again, perhaps some Gen-Xers, such as those about whom Martha has been complaining, are getting an earlier start than the Boomers did when it comes to wanting money. In fact, those Gen-Xers who go after the money now, and save rather than spend it, will be well on their way to FI/RE than the Boomers of today.
Some is the key word here. Some BoomersSome Gen-Xers. If you don't think that some Gen-Xers will behave exactly like some Boomers and Sell-out, Kiss Ass and rise to the top, you are very naive.

These Gen-Xers will garner the most money and be heard loud and clear. Trust me, there is very little difference in generations when it comes to greed.
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-13-2004, 02:07 PM   #77
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Re: $H!T

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The poster boy of Sellouts of the Boomers is Senator Norm Coleman of Minnesota. Former Vietnam War 1960's protester, Former Democrat. Now Republican Norm Coleman stands for pretty much all that I loathe.
I echo that thought. What does Norm "lake Erie" Coleman say about flip flopping? And our governor, who called northern Minnesotans whiners, almost makes me long for the days of Jesse Ventura.

Minnesota has always been a leader. We pay high taxes and get great service for our money. We were known for our high quality education system. We have the lowest percentage of unisured (health insurance) in the country. The rest of the country could look at us as a model of success. But Coleman and Pawlenty are putting us on the search for the lowest common denominator.

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Re: $H!T
Old 10-13-2004, 03:00 PM   #78
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Re: $H!T

Which syndicate did Coleman and Pawlenty wrassle with?
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-13-2004, 03:06 PM   #79
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Re: $H!T

Definately not the Girly Man Federation. They don't have the feather boas that Jesse had.
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Re: $H!T
Old 10-13-2004, 03:18 PM   #80
 
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Re: $H!T

Hey Martha. I love Jesse. Man, it gave me a whole
new attitude about Minnesota when he was elected.
(I am not unaware as I have spent lots of time in the state). I gravitate toward anyone who gives the
establishment the finger, although I won't tolerate
any girly men in any venue.

John Galt
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