HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
- Thread starter SLC Tortfeasor
- Start date
I'm all all-or-nothing thinker, so I get into quandries like this one. Maybe it would help to reflect that between your house at 200-something thousand dollars, and new house at 700 thousand, there's *another* house that is beautiful, perfectly suitable and affordable. Keep looking.
Another thing to reflect on is if your 700K house is really huge, you will have to clean it all. You won't be able to hire someone else to do it for a very long time, because money will be tight. All those lofty, soaring spaces will require you to dust every week with a long-handled dust mop or else you will have ropes of cobwebs dangling ceiling to floor. Heating and cooling it will cost mucho dinero. Acres of carpeting will need vacuuming, which is good, because you won't be able to afford a health club. And painting it inside will take months, not a couple of long weekends like the old place.
Let the decision ride for a while and think about it. Ask your realtor to show you some nice homes in a cheaper neighborhood.
Another thing to reflect on is if your 700K house is really huge, you will have to clean it all. You won't be able to hire someone else to do it for a very long time, because money will be tight. All those lofty, soaring spaces will require you to dust every week with a long-handled dust mop or else you will have ropes of cobwebs dangling ceiling to floor. Heating and cooling it will cost mucho dinero. Acres of carpeting will need vacuuming, which is good, because you won't be able to afford a health club. And painting it inside will take months, not a couple of long weekends like the old place.
Let the decision ride for a while and think about it. Ask your realtor to show you some nice homes in a cheaper neighborhood.
(Cute Fuzzy Bunny) said:I think if you can afford it, and its what you want, give it a go. I think if I'd never lived in a really, really nice house I would have wished later in life that I had. It was nice. I dont need it anymore.
Other than that, almost everything you said comes from two sources:
- realtors selling points
- a smart managers selling points. First thing I did when I hired a new sales rep was to convince them to a) get married to a spend crazy spouse; b) buy a huge house; and c) buy a mercedes or equiv.
With the latter fully in place, all motivation to sell as much as they humanly could to keep the bills paid came completely from external sources. All I had to do was show up to close deals and submit my forecasts.
Your boss and your realtor will be thrilled!
This is more or less what smart/greedy managers of boiler rooms do. Remember "Boiler Room", which is loosely based on Sterling Foster and Stratton Oakmont. These guys would charter buses to take their brokers/cold callers from NY to Atlantic City on the weekends [full of booze, drugs, etc.] so the brokers would blow all their money and be more or less forced to keep on committing fraud during the week.
A couple of our friends bought really expensive houses. DW and I lay in bed at night thinking about how much earlier we'll be able to retire than them.
Of course, we also had kids earlier, so that might help as well.- Alec
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
For what its worth, no fraud was committed on my watch.
But I took the New England District at that company from #14 out of 14 districts to #1 in one year. Missed #1 the following year by a few hundred thousand bucks due to some sandbagging by one of the other districts...
And I didnt make anyone do anything. I just showed up in my mercedes wearing my $3000 suits, all the expensive accessories, and waited for the competitive instinct to kick in...
But I took the New England District at that company from #14 out of 14 districts to #1 in one year. Missed #1 the following year by a few hundred thousand bucks due to some sandbagging by one of the other districts...
And I didnt make anyone do anything. I just showed up in my mercedes wearing my $3000 suits, all the expensive accessories, and waited for the competitive instinct to kick in...
shorttimer
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We are 52 and have a lot of friends in our age group. We all talk about retirement and there is a huge difference in the people who have managed to pay off their mortgage and those who have not. Once that mortgage is finished there is a tremendous feeling of freedom. Only you know what tradeoffs are important to you.
One thing to think about is are you going to have to work longer hours, or longer years to pay it off? Is that worth it to you? It isn't to me. I live in a perfectly nice house, but half the price of houses about half mile from here. No way would I give up my leisure time and early retirement dreams for one of those huge houses.
One of the problems I see is that housing is very fickle. Sure, if you live in a great area that is still on the upswing, no problem. In our market it is stalling. Make sure you know the local market reasonably well and even that can change without warning..
One thing to think about is are you going to have to work longer hours, or longer years to pay it off? Is that worth it to you? It isn't to me. I live in a perfectly nice house, but half the price of houses about half mile from here. No way would I give up my leisure time and early retirement dreams for one of those huge houses.
One of the problems I see is that housing is very fickle. Sure, if you live in a great area that is still on the upswing, no problem. In our market it is stalling. Make sure you know the local market reasonably well and even that can change without warning..
C
Cut-Throat
Guest
The $725K number is higher than I was expecting. If you were in a $250K and thinking of a $500K house with just one income approaching $200K, I'd say go for it.
But the $725K is too far of a stretch. The only way you could make out is if the real estate in that area were to double or triple in 5 years. Not a lot of buyers probably in the SLC area at that price range.
If you want another house, Why don't you look in the $400-$500K range - Don't hurry you'll be there a long time. It may not be as great a house as the $725K one, but it will help you maintain BALANCE
But the $725K is too far of a stretch. The only way you could make out is if the real estate in that area were to double or triple in 5 years. Not a lot of buyers probably in the SLC area at that price range.
If you want another house, Why don't you look in the $400-$500K range - Don't hurry you'll be there a long time. It may not be as great a house as the $725K one, but it will help you maintain BALANCE
Dawg52
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
A can't comprehend a purchase of this size. I don't want to be married to a house, that is one reason why I downsized 2 years ago. But thats just me. Good luck with whatever you decide!
Arif
Full time employment: Posting here.
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I agree with Brewer on this one. There is no exit strategy on this one if one of the above occured. When my wife and I were in the Army we made about 140k together. Guess how much our mortgage was...$102,000 on a foreclosure. Nothing fancy as we lived next to middle class America and saved her entire check and invested it in real estate that made sense. A few years later we are semi retired in our early 30s (in Panama).
Bottom line is homes are very illiquid and I buy foreclosures all the time from banks and VA. These homes where bought by people who thought they could afford it but in the end reality caught up with them. When you get in trouble with a house it is a race against time. Meaning can I sell the money pit before they foreclose on it. Do you really want to be tied down to a monthly payment that high?
gwix98
Recycles dryer sheets
I have to check in with the folks on the negative side as
well.
Interesting..when I bought my first home( I have owned 4)
the rule was that you could afford to buy something 2.5X
your income. I still think thats a good idea. Now the lenders
will pretty much give you well beyond what you can afford.
Whats changed from earlier days?
I think its pretty interesting that in the 50's, if you earned an average income, you could afford an average house.
Not today..it takes 1.5-2 incomes.
All other issues aside ER goal or not, one should never get in a
situation where you need two incomes to support the mortgage...never
well.
Interesting..when I bought my first home( I have owned 4)
the rule was that you could afford to buy something 2.5X
your income. I still think thats a good idea. Now the lenders
will pretty much give you well beyond what you can afford.
Whats changed from earlier days?
I think its pretty interesting that in the 50's, if you earned an average income, you could afford an average house.
Not today..it takes 1.5-2 incomes.
All other issues aside ER goal or not, one should never get in a
situation where you need two incomes to support the mortgage...never
JPatrick
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
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- 2,610
Sorry, but I've got to withdraw my earlier thumbs up on this one.
Now that you've provided some numbers to chew on I'd say this purchase is a ticket to disaster.
Chill for now, there's plenty of dream houses and there always will be.
Now that you've provided some numbers to chew on I'd say this purchase is a ticket to disaster.
Chill for now, there's plenty of dream houses and there always will be.
H
Howard
Guest
I also withdraw my comments, never buy a House that you can't afford on one salary and at rates that are double today's because they are coming.
10% Mortgages will return.
10% Mortgages will return.
$700K is stretching it on your income.
My house is worth about 640K and maintenance is more than I'd ever have thought. Between landscaping, this broke, that broke, my maintenance approaches 25% or more of my mortgage payment.
Buy something in the 400K range, you can surely get something nice if the market is not inflated. Millionaire Mind (follow-up to millionaire next door) says that most millionaires buy houses in the 500K range, sell it after 12 years for about 1 Million.
So, buy a 400K house on a 15 year loan. Check out how much you save on interest, it will blow you away.
My house is worth about 640K and maintenance is more than I'd ever have thought. Between landscaping, this broke, that broke, my maintenance approaches 25% or more of my mortgage payment.
Buy something in the 400K range, you can surely get something nice if the market is not inflated. Millionaire Mind (follow-up to millionaire next door) says that most millionaires buy houses in the 500K range, sell it after 12 years for about 1 Million.
So, buy a 400K house on a 15 year loan. Check out how much you save on interest, it will blow you away.
Don't listen to these guys. Go for it. Buy as big a house as the bank will let you. They wouldn't approve your loan if you couldn't afford it. Ask your real estate agent. A professional in real estate will surely know more about what's good for you than a bunch of yokels on an internet board. And don't worry about new furniture, house maintenance or yard work. That's what god created credit cards for. Follow this advice and you'll be fine. You and your spouse will work till your 70 and that will help the rest of us with the social security and medicare shortfall.
OK, SLC, I feel like it's late on the election night but the numbers are still too close to call. Where's the swing vote coming from? Have you made an irrevocable decision yet?
It's sea story time.
In mid-1989 spouse & I bought a house (with every last penny of our savings) for $277K with a $238K mortgage. 4BR, 2BA, 1873 sq ft on a 5000 sq ft lot in a nice bedroom community only 25 minutes from our work. It was 10 years old and ridden hard by tenants but we thought we could handle the repairs. And unlike many Hawaii homes, it had a garage!! We needed both jobs to swing that massive $1824/mo mortgage payment but we (and our mortgage company) felt that our Navy employment prospects were pretty good.
I was at sea or away at school through March 1990 (but what an adventure). Spouse managed to paint the inside & outside, spiff up the yard, and replace the "draperies" while I helped out during one or two weeks' leave. (She did so much on her own that I'm STILL paying back this obligation.) In April, when the master bathtub drain started leaking through the wall into the adjacent room, we decided to fix it by upgrading to a whirlpool tub. We couldn't find a plumber who wanted to touch the job in our price range so we'd ripped out the bathroom to the studs and had the new tub sitting in the garage while we cut a new drain line through the foundation.
On Sunday afternoons we entertained ourselves at open houses. At the end of May on Alapio Drive in Pupukea, high above the North Shore, we found THE house-- brand-new 3 BR, 2.5BA, 3000 sq ft with cathedral ceilings & ocean-view windows on 1½ ACRES (almost unheard of on Oahu) plus a 900 sq ft downstairs suite that could be converted (illegally) into a rental apartment. The backyard opened onto Waimea Valley, conservation land that'd never be developed. It was for sale by the builder for only $625K.
We immediately got the great screamin' gimmes and frantically tried to come up with the financing. As I recall we needed to sell the house for $425K, take out a $400K mortgage, and get the seller to take back $30K. We'd be wiping out our bank accounts (again) and we'd have to rent out the downstairs apartment, but the cashflow would just make the mortgage. Oh, we'd have a 60-minute work commute each way, but it was WORTH IT just for the view. Besides I was at sea most of the time and sleeping on board inport every fourth night anyway. The commute was the least of my worries.
We expressed some concern to the seller that we wouldn't be able to get a first mortgage if the second mortgage officially existed, and the seller/realtor both said "That's OK, we'll take your note for the $30K and we won't record it." We were a bit incredulous but we were assured that it was "common practice" in this neighborhood. So, smiling blissfully, we put down $5000 plus a contract (filled with contingencies!) and our $620K offer was accepted with the usual "vacate your contingencies if we get a cash offer" clause.
In mid-June we put our house, with the master bathroom still ripped to studs and the new tub in the garage, on the market for $425K. We were thronged with crowds at the open houses and we had plenty of interest from realtors & customers... but we didn't get an offer for six weeks.
Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in August. Oil prices spiked. Japanese visitors, terrified of a war or an oil crisis, stopped coming to Hawaii. Housing prices stopped in their tracks and began a decade-long downward spiral. We managed to sign a sales contract on our house for $385K (the tub was at least hooked up and the drywall was in) but it was full of contingencies. When we took the contract to the Pupukea house, the realtor's boss had a stack of paperwork to sign, including an innocuous recording notice for the second mortgage. We objected and he demurred that his client couldn't possibly have an unrecorded loan, and that "the first lender would never notice it anyway". Stymied, we stopped signing and left the office to consider our options.
The following week the owner got a full-price cash offer and we were asked to vacate our contingencies. We refused to do so until we settled the 2nd mortgage issue and the negotiations turned ugly. After a couple months' threats further negotiations we realized that the Pupukea home was losing its value and wasn't going to appraise high enough to approve our loan. So, after more ugly negotiations, we agreed to forfeit the $5K and they agreed not to drag us into court litigate for breach & damages.
Rumors of deploying Schofield Barracks' 25th LI to Iraq caused rents in the neighborhood to plummet (along with our projected cash flow). The home sold at $625K per the contract but we learned (years later) that the under-the-table actual price was $575K. We cancelled our home sale and finished the master bathroom. Driving back & forth to the North Shore made us appreciate how much that hour-long commute would truly suck, especially if we got called in late at night. A year later we read of a federal crackdown on unrecorded loans which would have busted us and made us pay off the second a few years early (with credit cards?!?) or lose our first mortgage. Two years later we were raising a kid and Pupukea is not exactly one of the island's best school districts. After "winning" the Gulf War, the military went through its biggest drawdown since WWII while expanding its base housing facilities. A combination of fewer military tenants and new home construction killed the market. Rental vacancies skyrocketed (what cashflow projection?) and home prices cratered almost as fast as the rents. By 1996 that $625K Pupukea home was appraised at $385K and our $425K home was at $260K. Good thing we never got that home, because in 1994 the Navy surprised us with orders to San Diego and we would have been trying to rent to both upstairs AND downstairs tenants. We both felt lucky not to have been downsized as well.
My point is that we were way out on the bleeding edge of the risk/reward envelope. Any single one of the above events would have pushed us over the edge from "making it" to possible bankruptcy. We would have had no cashflow or savings reserves to ride out surprises. I can only imagine the expense of trying to arrange childcare for a baby with two active-duty parents who lived an hour's drive away from work. During our San Diego tour we were hemorrhaging cash on renting out our original home, and it would have been even worse if we'd "won" that Pupukea home. We wouldn't have had much choice, though, with a mortgage balance higher than the appraised value. We would have bled until we ran out of cash, and I'd still be working today.
All things considered we felt lucky that the tuition at the School of Experience was only $5000. When we look at real estate now, we focus on what could go wrong. We know there's no problems when things go right.
So... wipe that blissful grin off your face and reflect for a moment-- what's the worst that could happen if you buy that big house?
It's sea story time.
In mid-1989 spouse & I bought a house (with every last penny of our savings) for $277K with a $238K mortgage. 4BR, 2BA, 1873 sq ft on a 5000 sq ft lot in a nice bedroom community only 25 minutes from our work. It was 10 years old and ridden hard by tenants but we thought we could handle the repairs. And unlike many Hawaii homes, it had a garage!! We needed both jobs to swing that massive $1824/mo mortgage payment but we (and our mortgage company) felt that our Navy employment prospects were pretty good.
I was at sea or away at school through March 1990 (but what an adventure). Spouse managed to paint the inside & outside, spiff up the yard, and replace the "draperies" while I helped out during one or two weeks' leave. (She did so much on her own that I'm STILL paying back this obligation.) In April, when the master bathtub drain started leaking through the wall into the adjacent room, we decided to fix it by upgrading to a whirlpool tub. We couldn't find a plumber who wanted to touch the job in our price range so we'd ripped out the bathroom to the studs and had the new tub sitting in the garage while we cut a new drain line through the foundation.
On Sunday afternoons we entertained ourselves at open houses. At the end of May on Alapio Drive in Pupukea, high above the North Shore, we found THE house-- brand-new 3 BR, 2.5BA, 3000 sq ft with cathedral ceilings & ocean-view windows on 1½ ACRES (almost unheard of on Oahu) plus a 900 sq ft downstairs suite that could be converted (illegally) into a rental apartment. The backyard opened onto Waimea Valley, conservation land that'd never be developed. It was for sale by the builder for only $625K.
We immediately got the great screamin' gimmes and frantically tried to come up with the financing. As I recall we needed to sell the house for $425K, take out a $400K mortgage, and get the seller to take back $30K. We'd be wiping out our bank accounts (again) and we'd have to rent out the downstairs apartment, but the cashflow would just make the mortgage. Oh, we'd have a 60-minute work commute each way, but it was WORTH IT just for the view. Besides I was at sea most of the time and sleeping on board inport every fourth night anyway. The commute was the least of my worries.
We expressed some concern to the seller that we wouldn't be able to get a first mortgage if the second mortgage officially existed, and the seller/realtor both said "That's OK, we'll take your note for the $30K and we won't record it." We were a bit incredulous but we were assured that it was "common practice" in this neighborhood. So, smiling blissfully, we put down $5000 plus a contract (filled with contingencies!) and our $620K offer was accepted with the usual "vacate your contingencies if we get a cash offer" clause.
In mid-June we put our house, with the master bathroom still ripped to studs and the new tub in the garage, on the market for $425K. We were thronged with crowds at the open houses and we had plenty of interest from realtors & customers... but we didn't get an offer for six weeks.
Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in August. Oil prices spiked. Japanese visitors, terrified of a war or an oil crisis, stopped coming to Hawaii. Housing prices stopped in their tracks and began a decade-long downward spiral. We managed to sign a sales contract on our house for $385K (the tub was at least hooked up and the drywall was in) but it was full of contingencies. When we took the contract to the Pupukea house, the realtor's boss had a stack of paperwork to sign, including an innocuous recording notice for the second mortgage. We objected and he demurred that his client couldn't possibly have an unrecorded loan, and that "the first lender would never notice it anyway". Stymied, we stopped signing and left the office to consider our options.
The following week the owner got a full-price cash offer and we were asked to vacate our contingencies. We refused to do so until we settled the 2nd mortgage issue and the negotiations turned ugly. After a couple months' threats further negotiations we realized that the Pupukea home was losing its value and wasn't going to appraise high enough to approve our loan. So, after more ugly negotiations, we agreed to forfeit the $5K and they agreed not to drag us into court litigate for breach & damages.
Rumors of deploying Schofield Barracks' 25th LI to Iraq caused rents in the neighborhood to plummet (along with our projected cash flow). The home sold at $625K per the contract but we learned (years later) that the under-the-table actual price was $575K. We cancelled our home sale and finished the master bathroom. Driving back & forth to the North Shore made us appreciate how much that hour-long commute would truly suck, especially if we got called in late at night. A year later we read of a federal crackdown on unrecorded loans which would have busted us and made us pay off the second a few years early (with credit cards?!?) or lose our first mortgage. Two years later we were raising a kid and Pupukea is not exactly one of the island's best school districts. After "winning" the Gulf War, the military went through its biggest drawdown since WWII while expanding its base housing facilities. A combination of fewer military tenants and new home construction killed the market. Rental vacancies skyrocketed (what cashflow projection?) and home prices cratered almost as fast as the rents. By 1996 that $625K Pupukea home was appraised at $385K and our $425K home was at $260K. Good thing we never got that home, because in 1994 the Navy surprised us with orders to San Diego and we would have been trying to rent to both upstairs AND downstairs tenants. We both felt lucky not to have been downsized as well.
My point is that we were way out on the bleeding edge of the risk/reward envelope. Any single one of the above events would have pushed us over the edge from "making it" to possible bankruptcy. We would have had no cashflow or savings reserves to ride out surprises. I can only imagine the expense of trying to arrange childcare for a baby with two active-duty parents who lived an hour's drive away from work. During our San Diego tour we were hemorrhaging cash on renting out our original home, and it would have been even worse if we'd "won" that Pupukea home. We wouldn't have had much choice, though, with a mortgage balance higher than the appraised value. We would have bled until we ran out of cash, and I'd still be working today.
All things considered we felt lucky that the tuition at the School of Experience was only $5000. When we look at real estate now, we focus on what could go wrong. We know there's no problems when things go right.
So... wipe that blissful grin off your face and reflect for a moment-- what's the worst that could happen if you buy that big house?
Good story from Nords, as always.
Another thing to do to kind of have an idea of what it's REALLY worth is to think of how much it would cost to have it build. I've been amazed in 2000 to sleep in 1M$ houses in the silicon valley I had to shut the HVAC off (heating off as it was winter) in order to sleep as the system was too noisy for wood boards made houses which I would have built myself in 3 months time for 50k-100k ?. I would never have bought those houses I though worthless in themselves. The market was giving them value (bid/ask push) and they might be worth much more today, but that's trading an illiquid bull market where many things can go wrong (back to Nord's and Brewer's mails) and not finding the right house to live in for the right price.
My two cents.
Another thing to do to kind of have an idea of what it's REALLY worth is to think of how much it would cost to have it build. I've been amazed in 2000 to sleep in 1M$ houses in the silicon valley I had to shut the HVAC off (heating off as it was winter) in order to sleep as the system was too noisy for wood boards made houses which I would have built myself in 3 months time for 50k-100k ?. I would never have bought those houses I though worthless in themselves. The market was giving them value (bid/ask push) and they might be worth much more today, but that's trading an illiquid bull market where many things can go wrong (back to Nord's and Brewer's mails) and not finding the right house to live in for the right price.
My two cents.
H
Howard
Guest
We bought a house with a 10% Mortgae Rate, I worked while my wife stayed home with the kids, within two years rates were at 22%, we literally counted the money for groceries(before Credit Cards).
I was offered Porsches, Lamborghinis etc for a fraction of their worth, but we were all trying to save our houses..
Buy when others are sellling, sell when others are buying, you may be wise to wait for a few years,or lesss, that house will be more affordable.
I was offered Porsches, Lamborghinis etc for a fraction of their worth, but we were all trying to save our houses..
Buy when others are sellling, sell when others are buying, you may be wise to wait for a few years,or lesss, that house will be more affordable.
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
((^+^)) SG said:
I thought we were anonymous people with opinions that werent any good.
Maybe some marketing executive has written a book that will definitively answer all the questions.
Clearly discussing it here further will be of no benefit.
Btw...yeah...great story Nords...
HFWR
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
But he has great boobs...
My only input is keep a nice margin of safety. If you have to sell aluminum cans to buy groceries, you'll likely be stressed and unhappy about the albatross house.
My only input is keep a nice margin of safety. If you have to sell aluminum cans to buy groceries, you'll likely be stressed and unhappy about the albatross house.
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
WhodaThunkit said:
But what about all the other bullies? They've got good opinions, but they're bullies with good opinions?
Am I just an idiot or a bullying idiot?
Is it idiocy to research your opinions and sources, or is that bullying?
Is it bullying or idiocy to take an opinion and ignore other sources and viewpoints?
Just trying to figure out what we all are exactly.
And yes, I have great boobs.
cute fuzzy bunny
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I will have to defer to your expertise in this matter.
riskadverse
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Since you have mixed feelings on the purchase, why don't you make a very very low offer on the house and see if you can negotiate a low enough price to insure you could resell at break even, if circumstances require it. I've found that if you structure a deal with mixed feelings, you are in a very good negotiating position. Either way the deal goes, you can be satisfied. I've found this technique to work very well in purchasing an expensive house.
SLC Tortfeasor
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riskaverse said:
Yes, we've thought about this. We may still decide to make a lowball offer, but the plan for now is to not even try. We're going to let this one go, and keep looking at all the other fish in the sea.
On Friday we looked at a quite nice place that is underpriced at $499K. Unfortunately, if we bought it, I wouldn't be able to stop comparing it to the more expensive house. So I think we're just going to sit tight for a while.
Interestingly, the seller's agent on the pricey house has been trying the typical sales tactics on us: She tried to pressure us by warning my agent that she supposedly has some other really interested prospective buyers. To which we responded, "great! hopefully they'll buy the house so that we won't be tempted anymore!" Probably not the response the seller's agent expected. The she responded by saying that the seller was "really motivated."
Can you believe it? I'm glad we're not buying that place.SLC Tortfeasor
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By the way, thanks for all your thoughtful advice everyone. Gotta-have-it fever made my thinking a little hazy for a while, but I think I'm getting back to normal now. Thankfully I came to my senses before making a big mistake.
H
Howard
Guest
SLC, you may have that house, but before you buy the Mercedes maybe you should drive the Volvo for a few years
