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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 12:59 PM   #21
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

cute fuzzy bunny thinks brewer needs a nice margarita!

but he's right in that you have to think of everything...
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 01:01 PM   #22
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLC Tortfeasor

New house = listed at $725K, we could probably get it down to $700K

I'd have to take out about $600K mortgage (this number is so big it just about makes my head spin)

Answering another question: I couldn't afford it on one salary. Our combined salary right now is $140K. It will go up to at least $195 in a year and a half
I've only bought one house so far, so I don't have the experience of many others on the board, but what ever happened to using a salary versus mortgage comparison?

Personally, we have two incomes but no kids yet. But when we bought the house, we figured to be able to afford it on one income if needed.
We also were looking for a mortgage around 2x that one income.

Granted, our peers that bought bigger homes have gotten a much larger appreciation out of them where as my money is tied up in mutual funds instead.
But in your case, you're looking at 600k which is 3x the 200k from both incomes.

That's fine as long as you are happy putting your money there in place of other options.

Also I agree to beware the "Wow! Look at all of this space! Now we need window treatments, new furniture, etc." as others have already said.

Your salary may continue to skyrocket and you'll be just fine, but for me I'll stick with my modest little house (and "little" mortgage) (and old furniture) for now.
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 01:11 PM   #23
 
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

Set up the shrink appointments now for when your buyer's remorse sets in.

That house will suck your life blood.

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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 01:37 PM   #24
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

Quote:
New house = listed at $725K, we could probably get it down to $700K


Well, that 25k discount should help out a lot

Quote:
I'm estimating the massive mortgage interest payments would result in about an $8k - $10k tax refund every year for the first few years.* Or, considered another way, the effective interest rate on the mortgage, if adjusted for the tax benefits, would be about 4.5%, which is not a bad price for getting more invested in what I believe will be a strong real estate market.
Have you looked at estimating your future mortgage interest deduction with the AMT. Also, if the AMT is changed, one of the probable items on the chopping block is the mortgage interest deduction for someone with such a huge mortgage.


http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/10/pf/t...n=money_latest
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 01:44 PM   #25
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

Sounds like a stretch. IMHO, only if you are absolutely sure you really want this house should you do it. If you are planning on having kids, or even thinking it's a possibility at all, don't do it. That is really a stretch.

Have you thought about the things you like about that house? Are their tangible things that made you fall in love with it, or is it just the thought of being able to be on MTV's "cribs"? If there are tangible things, you can add them to your existing house, or find a house that's less expensive with some of those features. It just seems like a stretch. Our household income was $166k for 2005, and our mortgage is for ~$300k, and while we aren't in trouble, the payments are plenty big enough! Kids can complicate things more than you may realize, even when you plan for them. We didn't exactly budget for cardiologists, pulminologists, physical therapy etc. so we are glad for the breathing room. Bottom line, kids in the future = run from this house.
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 01:55 PM   #26
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cute Fuzzy Bunny)
- a smart managers selling points.* First thing I did when I hired a new sales rep was to convince them to a) get married to a spend crazy spouse; b) buy a huge house; and c) buy a mercedes or equiv.

With the latter fully in place, all motivation to sell as much as they humanly could to keep the bills paid came completely from external sources.* All I had to do was show up to close deals and submit my forecasts.
That is freaking awesome

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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 02:05 PM   #27
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

I'm all all-or-nothing thinker, so I get into quandries like this one. Maybe it would help to reflect that between your house at 200-something thousand dollars, and new house at 700 thousand, there's *another* house that is beautiful, perfectly suitable and affordable. Keep looking.

Another thing to reflect on is if your 700K house is really huge, you will have to clean it all. You won't be able to hire someone else to do it for a very long time, because money will be tight. All those lofty, soaring spaces will require you to dust every week with a long-handled dust mop or else you will have ropes of cobwebs dangling ceiling to floor. Heating and cooling it will cost mucho dinero. Acres of carpeting will need vacuuming, which is good, because you won't be able to afford a health club. And painting it inside will take months, not a couple of long weekends like the old place.

Let the decision ride for a while and think about it. Ask your realtor to show you some nice homes in a cheaper neighborhood.
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 02:24 PM   #28
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Cute Fuzzy Bunny)
I think if you can afford it, and its what you want, give it a go. I think if I'd never lived in a really, really nice house I would have wished later in life that I had. It was nice. I dont need it anymore.

Other than that, almost everything you said comes from two sources:

- realtors selling points
- a smart managers selling points. First thing I did when I hired a new sales rep was to convince them to a) get married to a spend crazy spouse; b) buy a huge house; and c) buy a mercedes or equiv.

With the latter fully in place, all motivation to sell as much as they humanly could to keep the bills paid came completely from external sources. All I had to do was show up to close deals and submit my forecasts.

Your boss and your realtor will be thrilled!
This is more or less what smart/greedy managers of boiler rooms do. Remember "Boiler Room", which is loosely based on Sterling Foster and Stratton Oakmont. These guys would charter buses to take their brokers/cold callers from NY to Atlantic City on the weekends [full of booze, drugs, etc.] so the brokers would blow all their money and be more or less forced to keep on committing fraud during the week.

A couple of our friends bought really expensive houses. DW and I lay in bed at night thinking about how much earlier we'll be able to retire than them. Of course, we also had kids earlier, so that might help as well.

- Alec
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 02:52 PM   #29
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

For what its worth, no fraud was committed on my watch.

But I took the New England District at that company from #14 out of 14 districts to #1 in one year. Missed #1 the following year by a few hundred thousand bucks due to some sandbagging by one of the other districts...

And I didnt make anyone do anything. I just showed up in my mercedes wearing my $3000 suits, all the expensive accessories, and waited for the competitive instinct to kick in...
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 03:29 PM   #30
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

We are 52 and have a lot of friends in our age group. We all talk about retirement and there is a huge difference in the people who have managed to pay off their mortgage and those who have not. Once that mortgage is finished there is a tremendous feeling of freedom. Only you know what tradeoffs are important to you.

One thing to think about is are you going to have to work longer hours, or longer years to pay it off? Is that worth it to you? It isn't to me. I live in a perfectly nice house, but half the price of houses about half mile from here. No way would I give up my leisure time and early retirement dreams for one of those huge houses.

One of the problems I see is that housing is very fickle. Sure, if you live in a great area that is still on the upswing, no problem. In our market it is stalling. Make sure you know the local market reasonably well and even that can change without warning..

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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 04:16 PM   #31
 
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

The $725K number is higher than I was expecting. If you were in a $250K and thinking of a $500K house with just one income approaching $200K, I'd say go for it.

But the $725K is too far of a stretch. The only way you could make out is if the real estate in that area were to double or triple in 5 years. Not a lot of buyers probably in the SLC area at that price range.

If you want another house, Why don't you look in the $400-$500K range - Don't hurry you'll be there a long time. It may not be as great a house as the $725K one, but it will help you maintain BALANCE
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 05:04 PM   #32
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

A can't comprehend a purchase of this size. I don't want to be married to a house, that is one reason why I downsized 2 years ago. But thats just me. Good luck with whatever you decide!
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 05:27 PM   #33
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

Quote:
What if:

- you have kids and DW stays home? Screwed.
- One or both of you are out of work for some reason? Screwed.
- The higher paying job for DW doesn't come through? Screwed.
- The real estate market crashes when you need/want to move? Screwed.
I agree with Brewer on this one. There is no exit strategy on this one if one of the above occured. When my wife and I were in the Army we made about 140k together. Guess how much our mortgage was...$102,000 on a foreclosure. Nothing fancy as we lived next to middle class America and saved her entire check and invested it in real estate that made sense. A few years later we are semi retired in our early 30s (in Panama).
Bottom line is homes are very illiquid and I buy foreclosures all the time from banks and VA. These homes where bought by people who thought they could afford it but in the end reality caught up with them. When you get in trouble with a house it is a race against time. Meaning can I sell the money pit before they foreclose on it. Do you really want to be tied down to a monthly payment that high?
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 06:54 PM   #34
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

I have to check in with the folks on the negative side as
well.
Interesting..when I bought my first home( I have owned 4)
the rule was that you could afford to buy something 2.5X
your income. I still think thats a good idea. Now the lenders
will pretty much give you well beyond what you can afford.
Whats changed from earlier days?
I think its pretty interesting that in the 50's, if you earned an average income, you could afford an average house.
Not today..it takes 1.5-2 incomes.

All other issues aside ER goal or not, one should never get in a
situation where you need two incomes to support the mortgage...never



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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 07:37 PM   #35
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

Sorry, but I've got to withdraw my earlier thumbs up on this one.
Now that you've provided some numbers to chew on I'd say this purchase is a ticket to disaster.* *
Chill for now, there's plenty of dream houses and there always will be.
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 09:30 PM   #36
 
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

I also withdraw my comments, never buy a House that you can't afford on one salary and at rates that are double today's because they are coming.

10% Mortgages will return.
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 09:51 PM   #37
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

$700K is stretching it on your income.

My house is worth about 640K and maintenance is more than I'd ever have thought. Between landscaping, this broke, that broke, my maintenance approaches 25% or more of my mortgage payment.

Buy something in the 400K range, you can surely get something nice if the market is not inflated. Millionaire Mind (follow-up to millionaire next door) says that most millionaires buy houses in the 500K range, sell it after 12 years for about 1 Million.

So, buy a 400K house on a 15 year loan. Check out how much you save on interest, it will blow you away.
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 09:55 PM   #38
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

Or, [seems to be my token saying these days], wait until the housing market crashes and pick up that same house for $450K.
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-28-2006, 10:37 PM   #39
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

Don't listen to these guys. Go for it. Buy as big a house as the bank will let you. They wouldn't approve your loan if you couldn't afford it. Ask your real estate agent. A professional in real estate will surely know more about what's good for you than a bunch of yokels on an internet board. And don't worry about new furniture, house maintenance or yard work. That's what god created credit cards for. Follow this advice and you'll be fine. You and your spouse will work till your 70 and that will help the rest of us with the social security and medicare shortfall.
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!
Old 01-29-2006, 01:35 AM   #40
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Re: HELP! Willpower weakening! Yearning to buy barely-affordable luxury house!

OK, SLC, I feel like it's late on the election night but the numbers are still too close to call.* Where's the swing vote coming from?* Have you made an irrevocable decision yet?

It's sea story time.

In mid-1989 spouse & I bought a house (with every last penny of our savings) for $277K with a $238K mortgage.* 4BR, 2BA, 1873 sq ft on a 5000 sq ft lot in a nice bedroom community only 25 minutes from our work.* It was 10 years old and ridden hard by tenants but we thought we could handle the repairs.* And unlike many Hawaii homes, it had a garage!!* We needed both jobs to swing that massive $1824/mo mortgage payment but we (and our mortgage company) felt that our Navy employment prospects were pretty good.

I was at sea or away at school through March 1990 (but what an adventure).* Spouse managed to paint the inside & outside, spiff up the yard, and replace the "draperies" while I helped out during one or two weeks' leave.* (She did so much on her own that I'm STILL paying back this obligation.)* In April, when the master bathtub drain started leaking through the wall into the adjacent room, we decided to fix it by upgrading to a whirlpool tub.* We couldn't find a plumber who wanted to touch the job in our price range so we'd ripped out the bathroom to the studs and had the new tub sitting in the garage while we cut a new drain line through the foundation.

On Sunday afternoons we entertained ourselves at open houses.* At the end of May on Alapio Drive in Pupukea, high above the North Shore, we found THE house-- brand-new 3 BR, 2.5BA, 3000 sq ft with cathedral ceilings & ocean-view windows on 1 ACRES (almost unheard of on Oahu) plus a 900 sq ft downstairs suite that could be converted (illegally) into a rental apartment.* The backyard opened onto Waimea Valley, conservation land that'd never be developed.* It was for sale by the builder for only $625K.

We immediately got the great screamin' gimmes and frantically tried to come up with the financing.* As I recall we needed to sell the house for $425K, take out a $400K mortgage, and get the seller to take back $30K.* We'd be wiping out our bank accounts (again) and we'd have to rent out the downstairs apartment, but the cashflow would just make the mortgage.* Oh, we'd have a 60-minute work commute each way, but it was WORTH IT just for the view.* Besides I was at sea most of the time and sleeping on board inport every fourth night anyway.* The commute was the least of my worries.

We expressed some concern to the seller that we wouldn't be able to get a first mortgage if the second mortgage officially existed, and the seller/realtor both said "That's OK, we'll take your note for the $30K and we won't record it."* We were a bit incredulous but we were assured that it was "common practice" in this neighborhood.* So, smiling blissfully, we put down $5000 plus a contract (filled with contingencies!) and our $620K offer was accepted with the usual "vacate your contingencies if we get a cash offer" clause.

In mid-June we put our house, with the master bathroom still ripped to studs and the new tub in the garage, on the market for $425K.* We were thronged with crowds at the open houses and we had plenty of interest from realtors & customers... but we didn't get an offer for six weeks.

Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in August.* Oil prices spiked.* Japanese visitors, terrified of a war or an oil crisis, stopped coming to Hawaii.* Housing prices stopped in their tracks and began a decade-long downward spiral.* We managed to sign a sales contract on our house for $385K (the tub was at least hooked up and the drywall was in) but it was full of contingencies.* When we took the contract to the Pupukea house, the realtor's boss had a stack of paperwork to sign, including an innocuous recording notice for the second mortgage.* We objected and he demurred that his client couldn't possibly have an unrecorded loan, and that "the first lender would never notice it anyway".* Stymied, we stopped signing and left the office to consider our options.

The following week the owner got a full-price cash offer and we were asked to vacate our contingencies.* We refused to do so until we settled the 2nd mortgage issue and the negotiations turned ugly.* After a couple months' threats further negotiations we realized that the Pupukea home was losing its value and wasn't going to appraise high enough to approve our loan.* So, after more ugly negotiations, we agreed to forfeit the $5K and they agreed not to drag us into court litigate for breach & damages.

Rumors of deploying Schofield Barracks' 25th LI to Iraq caused rents in the neighborhood to plummet (along with our projected cash flow).* The home sold at $625K per the contract but we learned (years later) that the under-the-table actual price was $575K.* We cancelled our home sale and finished the master bathroom.* Driving back & forth to the North Shore made us appreciate how much that hour-long commute would truly suck, especially if we got called in late at night.* A year later we read of a federal crackdown on unrecorded loans which would have busted us and made us pay off the second a few years early (with credit cards?!?) or lose our first mortgage.* Two years later we were raising a kid and Pupukea is not exactly one of the island's best school districts.* After "winning" the Gulf War, the military went through its biggest drawdown since WWII while expanding its base housing facilities.* A combination of fewer military tenants and new home construction killed the market.* Rental vacancies skyrocketed (what cashflow projection?) and home prices cratered almost as fast as the rents.* By 1996 that $625K Pupukea home was appraised at $385K and our $425K home was at $260K.* Good thing we never got that home, because in 1994 the Navy surprised us with orders to San Diego and we would have been trying to rent to both upstairs AND downstairs tenants.* We both felt lucky not to have been downsized as well.

My point is that we were way out on the bleeding edge of the risk/reward envelope.* Any single one of the above events would have pushed us over the edge from "making it" to possible bankruptcy.* We would have had no cashflow or savings reserves to ride out surprises.* I can only imagine the expense of trying to arrange childcare for a baby with two active-duty parents who lived an hour's drive away from work.* During our San Diego tour we were hemorrhaging cash on renting out our original home, and it would have been even worse if we'd "won" that Pupukea home.* We wouldn't have had much choice, though, with a mortgage balance higher than the appraised value.* We would have bled until we ran out of cash, and I'd still be working today.

All things considered we felt lucky that the tuition at the School of Experience was only $5000.* When we look at real estate now, we focus on what could go wrong.* We know there's no problems when things go right.

So... wipe that blissful grin off your face and reflect for a moment-- what's the worst that could happen if you buy that big house?
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