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Old 02-19-2008, 10:09 PM   #41
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Only you can figure out what is important to you.
Exactly! It's not about not spending money, it's about spending money on *what's important to you*.

And only you can determine what's important to you.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:44 PM   #42
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Everyone is different. Things I like to do, to others might seem odd or even stupid. Same thing with how one spends their money. Since this is the FIRE forum, many of us are focused on how to get there and once there how to stay there. This thread is asking the question of how to balance.
That is a very personal decision. There is no ONE answer.
IMO the pertinent question should be: how did you get there? or how are you planning on getting there. Then one can get ideas on how to approach the situation.

My answer:
LBYM lifer. When I started w*rking, I maxed out (10% of salary) my employee stock plan (seemed like a good way to force save). When 401k plan started, I did the same (max to match). As I got promo's and raises, I just let those participate in the esp and 401k too. In other words, I PAID MYSELF 1st. The 1st 5 or so years of work was my 'foundation set up' years. We kept to a strict budget and paid off our debts and started to save all that was left after our budget. Credit cards are used as float, I don't think over the years we have paid more than $5 in interest (oversights). The next 10 years or so, as my career 'got better', I found that we had more discretionary income. So after 'Paying Ourselves 1st', we lightened up and started to go out for the occasional meal, buy a more luxurious car, move up in house, take a vacation that did not involve a tent. As the career progressed, we found that we didn't have to cut the dryer sheets anymore, ...etc. After my oldest got to college, we did a re-calculation and found we were better off than we thought we would be. Cruises came into play. Nicer restaurants, 2 buck chuck, but also the occassional 'nice' bottle of wine, ...etc. All of the time maxing out 401k, stock plan, and contributing to after tax investments.
From my vantage point, so far, it's been a good ride. We scrimped and saved in the beginning while paying ourselves 1st, paid off our debts, save as much as we could, and balanced it off with progressive rewards as life got better. I truly believe that life is a building of habits. DS and DD still call us 'cheap'. We certainly live way below our means, but comfortably. These habits have let us FIRE and live life the way we want. I also believe that if we had not done it our way, ... i.e. got the BMW earlier, big yearly vacations earlier on, eating out a few times a week (as our neighbors had), ...etc., I would still be a Wage Slave today (as many of my former peers still are).

btw, on our recent trip to China, DW took a fancy to a (single) gold pearl on a gold chain. I could tell that she really wanted it. It cost about the equivalent to 3x a local persons yearly income. But it made her happy. We are now able to 'treat ourselves' occassionally. After all life if to be lived.

I think the 'take away' here is that you have to do it your way. However, if you get into the habit of 'doing it now', you may not be able to 'do it later'. Balance ... like your portfolio is a personal thing.

... my 2 cents ... and worth every cent
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Old 02-20-2008, 07:25 AM   #43
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Priorities change over time at different ages and stages of life. Kids, elderly parents, spouse, divorce, j*b situations, etc all influence that tipping point between spend and save.

Early on, my push was to pay off school debt, then save for a home down payment, then the kids came along- twins were not planned nor budgeted for - but I couldn't exactly send one back (not that I want to) - but they have to be paid for. Throw in some issues from spouse's side of the family and the mix gets tough.

While I didn't always save for retirement as much as would have liked to, (and might have saved more if I knew then what I know now), but I always saved some. Stick to a plan, but live along the way, and keep things balanced.

You will always weigh the decision "should I save or spend it on this".
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Old 02-20-2008, 02:15 PM   #44
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I achieved my lowest estimated FIRe date (age 47) RIGHT BEFORE my first kid arrived, followed by another.

Having two kids raised my retirement age by 5 years or so, but I wouldn't give my kids up for Buffett's billions........
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Old 02-20-2008, 02:43 PM   #45
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I achieved my lowest estimated FIRe date (age 47) RIGHT BEFORE my first kid arrived, followed by another.

Having two kids raised my retirement age by 5 years or so, but I wouldn't give my kids up for Buffett's billions........
FD, have they reached their teen years yet? (innocently smiling)

Oh well. That only lasts a few years, and then they leave home. Amazing how much smarter their parents become as soon as they do that. But if Buffett comes knocking on your door when they are around 14-15, better slam the door in his face!

Back to the topic at hand - - I know my priorities and until now, ER was a very high priority for me. However, recently I inherited a substantial sum, so I am FI. Therefore I decided to spend my entire $1395 tax refund for the first time in a huge shopping spree, since I plan to refrain from spending any of my inheritance and can afford to spend this year.

Monday I went out with the firm intention of blowing the whole thing. I shopped for eight hours, until I was exhausted and my car was full. I bought things I have wanted for 40 years, and things that just appealed to me on an impulse. I bought clothes, lots of pillows just "because", a spice rack, baskets, a new doormat, and basically everything under the sun. Total bill: $287, so I still have $1112 left. I think I will give up and slink off to invest it, instead. How embarrassing. Until now I always thought there was so much I would buy, if I just had the money.
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Old 02-20-2008, 02:52 PM   #46
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rai-zero,

Like most people here, I agree that it is all about balance. I am frugal by nature and I am fortunate to make a higher than average income (but not stratospheric). My parents were savers, I am a saver.

I started maxing out my 401(k) at my first job, and opened a taxable account at 26 so I could save more. At 31 or so (say, 7 years ago), I decided to start keeping track of my savings more. Now, I save 30% of my income, and I can spend the rest.

I spend a good amount on travel. I love to travel. I usually take one big trip a year (this year is Alaska in July), and multiple smaller trips. I also plan home-renovation projects in stages - one big project a year. I also spend money on going out with friends for drinks and dinner. But, I buy used, reliable cars and keep them a long time. I don't have the latest electronic gadgets or a flat screen TV. I hate to shop (yes, I'm a woman). I don't buy expensive designer clothes. I bring my lunch to work. I go to the library instead of Barnes and Noble.

I plan to retire at 52. If I stopped travelling, I could probably do it 5 years earlier. But what would be the fun in that?
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Old 02-20-2008, 04:06 PM   #47
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For example who here would not like to go an a vacation to Europe or Hawaii? I'm sure most of us would. However that costs $$.... I mean is a $10K vacation out of the question or do you still do that but save in other areas?
As travelover implies, this question can't really be answered without some idea of your net income.

If you and your wife enjoy travelling and have a combined net income of, say, $200,000, I see no real reason why you shouldn't enjoy an annual $10K vacation: that would only be 2.5% of your income, and provided that you otherwise LBYM, it should be nothing to worry about. After all, you have to have some enjoyment as you go through life, especially as no one knows what the future holds and you could get hit by a bus tomorrow.

If on the other hand you only have net income of $40,000, 25% of your annual budget sounds rather excessive to me. But you could always enjoy more modest vacations, save up, and enjoy a 'trip of a lifetime' vacation every 10 years or so.

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She and I have different ideas of what we want. For example she would like a baby grand piano (for what I have no idea). I say that's silly but then she informs me she makes a good income and so she thinks she should be able to buy what she wants.... It's hard to have one person saving for ER and have the wife spending for today
Sounds like you have a bigger problem than deciding where to vacation, or whether you really need a piano.

As you know (I hope), marriage involves compromise and communication. Perhaps it might be prudent to arrange for a weekend getaway where the two of you will have the opportunity to discuss your short and long term futures and arrive at some shared goals.

You say that you "have no idea" why your wife wants a baby grand, and that her desire is "silly". Frankly, that sort of approach isn't likely to lead to anything but resentment.

Does your wife know how to play the piano? If not, explore whether she intends to learn (perhaps a long-cherished secret dream?). Don't just assume that she wants a mega-expensive decoration for your living room (BTW, it is possible to rent baby grands, if she wants it for entertaining at home or something like that).

If it turns out that she doesn't want to play the piano, and indeed simply wants it for looks, personally I agree with you that it's awfully pricey for a mere ornament. But she is not entirely wrong to say that she earns her share of the total income and should be free to spend (some of) it on things that she wishes, without fear of judgment or criticism from you. In that case, probably the best that you can do is to get her to agree to a budget whereby fixed amounts are allocated for normal living costs, savings/investments, and you each get a certain regular amount to waste spend on whimsical hobbies, activities or purchases.
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Old 02-20-2008, 11:02 PM   #48
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Monday I went out with the firm intention of blowing the whole thing. I shopped for eight hours, until I was exhausted and my car was full. I bought things I have wanted for 40 years, and things that just appealed to me on an impulse. I bought clothes, lots of pillows just "because", a spice rack, baskets, a new doormat, and basically everything under the sun. Total bill: $287, so I still have $1112 left. I think I will give up and slink off to invest it, instead. How embarrassing. Until now I always thought there was so much I would buy, if I just had the money.
W2R, you sound like you are terminally frugal.

IMO FI is a very personal thing. In my case, I 'lucked into' it. My goal was not a portfolio dollar amount, it was 30 years @ megacorp. By the time I got there, I had a buffer. So now FI means having a buffer. With that buffer, I now give myself permission to indulge myself on occassion.

An observation;, it seems to me that you are running on 'auto-pilot'. After years of frugal habits, it is hard to go on a spree.

A suggestion: run you numbers with your inheritance... see what you would have at age 100 using reasonable assumptions. If it is a big number ... and you don't plan on leaving a 'ton' to your dogs or something like that, then it may give you the confidence level to 'up your spending'.
You need to give yourself permission to go wild. You may want to do it slowly ... i.e. you can't go cold turkey and spend $2K in one day on 'fun stuff' , if you don't normally spend that much in a year on fun stuff.

Enjoy
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Old 02-21-2008, 06:45 AM   #49
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Never been on a $10k trip paid for by myself, but have been on numerous $10k trips (more than I can count using all fingers and toes) but they were megacorp mandates, not vacations. The four walls of the hotel, and the four walls of the meeting rooms get old fast. What has been nice though is that I have been able to take DW on a few of these over the years (at the company's invitation and on the company's dime) and stop in Paris or somewhere on the way (on our dime), just for a couple of days. Once we FIRE, there will probably be ONE $10k vacation, probably even more like $20k, to visit multiple cities in Europe, with a longish stay in London. But, as Walt34 mentioned, you can buy a really nice travel trailer for a few thousand (ones I have my eyes on are about 13-16k), and see a lot of places for slightly more cost in gas than without the trailer. (By the way, Walt, your mention of luminol and blacklight kinda grossed me out, since I have to stay in hotels all the time...too much information.....).

I could never buy a $10k watch, even though I have drooled over them in Geneva. DW says I should get one, but if I am going to spend that kind of money I would rather spend it on a used car for the kids, or a travel trailer.

But yes, it all comes down to understanding well, within yourself and within your your marraige/family, what you want to do and when you want to do it, and BALANCING those priorities. Some people are better or more skilled at understanding the concept of balance than others. I know too many people who want FIRE, but they also want the bimmer, and the 10k watch, and the 10 vacation each year, and, and, and....

FIRE is like most things in life, you can't have your cake and eat it too...!!! Eat it now, or save it for later...eventually it gets et!

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Old 02-21-2008, 08:52 AM   #50
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W2R, you sound like you are terminally frugal.

IMO FI is a very personal thing. In my case, I 'lucked into' it. My goal was not a portfolio dollar amount, it was 30 years @ megacorp. By the time I got there, I had a buffer. So now FI means having a buffer. With that buffer, I now give myself permission to indulge myself on occassion.

An observation;, it seems to me that you are running on 'auto-pilot'. After years of frugal habits, it is hard to go on a spree.

A suggestion: run you numbers with your inheritance... see what you would have at age 100 using reasonable assumptions. If it is a big number ... and you don't plan on leaving a 'ton' to your dogs or something like that, then it may give you the confidence level to 'up your spending'.
You need to give yourself permission to go wild. You may want to do it slowly ... i.e. you can't go cold turkey and spend $2K in one day on 'fun stuff' , if you don't normally spend that much in a year on fun stuff.

Enjoy
Thanks. You are right about the years of habits. I ran the numbers and I would have a ridiculously large amount at age 100 using conservative assumptions. You are SO right - - if I am going to increase my spending, I have to do this slowly and ease into it, for so many reasons. But, Monday's shopping spree was at least a good start. I am sure I will get better at this with practice.
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Old 02-21-2008, 10:06 AM   #51
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Definitely a concept set on an individual level.

For me, I am still learning to balance. I am a spender that has frugal moments.

I don't own a car, can't justify the expense when mass transit is so much cheaper and can rent a car on the weekend if I really need one (I can do this twice a month and still have it be much cheaper than a car but rarely exceed one weekend every 2 or 3 months). Yet, I have saltwater aquariums (initial expense is massive but upkeep is low), love to travel (cheaply, managed a 1 1/2 week vacation to Scotland for 4 people and we didn't spend more than 5k which was a once in a lifetime thing), and love to eat out (but have definitely cut back to only $100 per month).

I think the part that I am really frugal on is upkeep, the cost of maintaining our lifestyle fits on my paycheck (2 people no kids) and I am rapidly becoming the low earning spouse.

I believe in enjoying life on the way because I have no guarantee I will live to enjoy my savings but I do not want to have to count on work being there for forever. Balance is really key to me because in my family you either live forever or die young and you won't know until its too late to change your spending strategy.
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Old 02-21-2008, 04:26 PM   #52
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....I decided to spend my entire $1395....

Monday I went out with the firm intention of blowing the whole thing. I shopped for eight hours, until I was exhausted and my car was full. I bought things I have wanted for 40 years, and things that just appealed to me on an impulse. I bought clothes, lots of pillows just "because", a spice rack, baskets, a new doormat, and basically everything under the sun. Total bill: $287, so I still have $1112 left. I think I will give up and slink off to invest it, instead. How embarrassing.

Until now I always thought there was so much I would buy, if I just had the money.
LOL, W2R, I see myself here, love your last line. I allowed myself $3,000.00 to blow recently, but didn't exhaust myself at the mall, just went on-line: I gained a long-awaited laptop, digital camera and printer, all compatible, an e-book with compatible light and enough memory cards and batteries to last five years. Got manuals for the laptop with the credit card rewards certificates. I'm not as precise at bookkeeping as you are but I think I still have $200 left over.
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Old 02-21-2008, 04:50 PM   #53
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LOL, W2R, I see myself here, love your last line. I allowed myself $3,000.00 to blow recently, but didn't exhaust myself at the mall, just went on-line: I gained a long-awaited laptop, digital camera and printer, all compatible, an e-book with compatible light and enough memory cards and batteries to last five years. Got manuals for the laptop with the credit card rewards certificates. I'm not as precise at bookkeeping as you are but I think I still have $200 left over.
You did better than I did! but then, I already have a laptop, digital camera, and printer, and although the camera and printer are old, I am happy with them. I don't have the e-book reader, but I used to read them on my pocket PC and found that that grew old for me after a few months.

I'd love a treadmill, but it would be one more thing to move to Missouri in a couple of years, or to have to sell, and I have no idea where I would put one - - they take a lot of space.
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Old 02-21-2008, 05:21 PM   #54
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Shoot,

The next two lenses I want to buy are $1,600 and $6,000 respectively. Heck, the next camera I want, if I felt I could justify it, is not cheap either (and, if I really wanted to blow money, the one I really really want is over $6k).

I haven't even bothered pricing out lighting and backdrops for playing around with studio shots...

You guys just need more expensive hobbies.
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Old 02-21-2008, 05:32 PM   #55
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Shoot,

The next two lenses I want to buy are $1,600 and $6,000 respectively. Heck, the next camera I want, if I felt I could justify it, is not cheap either (and, if I really wanted to blow money, the one I really really want is over $6k).

I haven't even bothered pricing out lighting and backdrops for playing around with studio shots...

You guys just need more expensive hobbies.
That's hilarious! My dad was a photographer and my fave photo is of him shivering in the cold with his tri-pod and Speed Graphic. But mercifully because of my so-so income, high housing expenses and hopes for (somewhat) early R, I am uninformed. Never had much skill at buying stuff.
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Old 02-21-2008, 05:34 PM   #56
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Never had much skill at buying stuff.
Yep - - I, too, am an amateur at blowing money and have much to learn!
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Old 02-21-2008, 05:35 PM   #57
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That's hilarious! My dad was a photographer and my fave photo is of him shivering in the cold with his tri-pod and Speed Graphic. But mercifully because of my so-so income, high housing expenses and hopes for (somewhat) early R, I am uninformed. Never had much skill at buying stuff.

As a mediocre amateur, I do at least have half a brain to not just go and buy willy-nilly. Of course, if I just got one more lens then I'm sure my pictures would be much, much better . In fantasy land, though, I'd be $50k in the hole in no time
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Old 02-21-2008, 05:38 PM   #58
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As a mediocre amateur, I do at least have half a brain to not just go and buy willy-nilly. Of course, if I just got one more lens then I'm sure my pictures would be much, much better . In fantasy land, though, I'd be $50k in the hole in no time
Goodness. I have seen houses online for less than that, that would be perfectly habitable in a pinch.

P.S. - - my digital camera is one of those old Sony cameras that record on a floppy disk. But hey, it works, and my old desktop computer has a floppy drive.
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Old 02-21-2008, 05:41 PM   #59
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Goodness. I have seen houses online for less than that, that would be perfectly habitable in a pinch.

Just throw a tarp over the tripod.
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Old 02-21-2008, 08:54 PM   #60
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Another point of view that some might consider is saving more prior to age 35 (you know the best savings years) and loosening up more after that once you get a nice base....
That is the approach we took. Bear in mind, this is coming from me after an excruciatingly hard day and a lot of strong beer, but:

TANSTAAFL. Either you scrimp a lot while you are young and then slack off a bit, or you smooth things out and retire later. If you are married and have kids, the former choice makes paying for the kids easier, but it runs the risk of depriving you of doing all the frivolous things you won't have time for after the kids arrive (then again, if you are working and going to grad school at night and pursuing professional designations on the side like we were, you will think that having an hour of free time is a fantastic, priceless luxury). If you choose the latter, it makes things a little dicier later on, but maybe you get to enjoy life some more.

But always remember that you could be hit by a bus tomorrow, and all your plans for the future could be silly/worthless/foolish.
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