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I really do need to learn to advocate for myself
Old 03-14-2011, 06:24 PM   #1
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I really do need to learn to advocate for myself

Blah. Just blah.

I'm sure there is a thread similar to what I am about to say, so apologies up front. I did look. I did use the search function.

Okay.

*ahem*

I want to be young and pretty and make my boss drool so I can get promotions and raises even when no one else has been promoted based on company finances.

The company has actually hit the other end of this deep recession and is now hiring again. Thinking we'd get qualified help for positions that require experience, I found out that a young pretty girl was just put into a position she has no experience in, doing exactly what I'm doing. As well, her title reflects what the title I have horizontally requested the past year+. Horizontally as in not asking to be promoted but asking at the very least for a title change to more accurately reflect what the heck I do. No was the answer, with the added bit that when money was available, he (the boss) wanted the title change to come with a promotion. Well money became available and he promoted the young pretty girl into a position that had opened up. So, okay. Then another promotion. I asked about the obvious availability of money and got the response 'she's a smart girl, I don't want to lose her'. Me thinking, 'but you don't mind losing me', which is where I'm headed, although I'm having trouble finding another position since I want to move out of the NoVA area (where I've lived for over 16 years).

Fast forward to today. Me with my old title although I do three different jobs, have increased revenue/profit and 'traffic', she with 'my' title and no crucial experience. There will be learning curve. I hope she can learn on her own, because I'm done teaching.

I'm actually going to address what happened today with 'the boss', but am sleeping on it to know what I want to address coherent and respectfully.

Now would be the time to ask for the sky, so I get at least a little ... or be ready to walk ..

Any advice or comments?

Tx.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:28 PM   #2
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Btw, I think I posted this in the wrong forum. Please feel free to move.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:30 PM   #3
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well it does really suck when someone else gets the few and far between promotions.

regarding young and pretty gets promoted over older, talented , and loyal...perhaps that's all it is but I suspect that there is more to this story.

Is there something (anything) about ourselves that makes us less than qualified for the position. Perhaps we can't even see it ourselves. Ask someone you really trust to be frank with you.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:44 PM   #4
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well it does really suck when someone else gets the few and far between promotions.

regarding young and pretty gets promoted over older, talented , and loyal...perhaps that's all it is but I suspect that there is more to this story.

Is there something (anything) about ourselves that makes us less than qualified for the position. Perhaps we can't even see it ourselves. Ask someone you really trust to be frank with you.
I wish it was that simple. We've had a consistent pretty girl syndrome. This is the third. The second was promoted a couple of years ago when we, as a company, were told there would be no promotions and there would be furloughs. She knew next to nothing and that comes from general consensus and not my opinion. We had someone quit within the month after that.

As for looking at myself, I do have someone I bounce these things off of for a reality check and even she agrees that I need to at least say something, and that she has never seen one job advertised and another one given. As well, she listened to my rant as today as I was trying to figure this out. I was hurt. I felt undervalued. It's not about the promotion, it's about the appreciation. I've done everything that's been requested, doubled everything (this I can prove). How do you move someone into a position she's not qualified for and give her a title well above her skill level?

It's the obvious drooling. It's the creep factor. It's the obviousness of what's going on and there's not a d@mn thing I can do about it.

If there is anything wrong with me - I'm not a stronger personality. I figure all that's good will come, although as I've been told that in this generation, you ask for what you want. So, I have to grow some ...
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:47 PM   #5
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When you talk to your boss, sell yourself and what you do. Practice your presentation. Whatever you do, do not disparage the other employee.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:54 PM   #6
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I would NEVER disparage the other employee. It's not her fault. And it's not my style.
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:25 PM   #7
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It is an unfortunate fact of life. I saw lots of good looking, but marginal, people get promoted in my previous corporate life. All the top (male) management were well over 6 feet tall. Having a nice head of hair helps a lot, too. Some work environments are worse than others - you may need to move on until you find a culture that you can stand or learn to suck it up.

Wait until you get older, you'll see how much age bias exists at your work place, as well.
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:37 PM   #8
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Yep, experienced young pretty thing syndrome at my last position. I was not the victim of it, but I was part of the management team putting the administrative team members in order of layoffs if required. YPT were listed last to go, whilst the middle aged woman who was far more competent and proactive in doing her job was listed to go first. It was the men who were totally blinded to ability. The creep factor, yep know what you mean about that. A couple of the YPT really knew how to play these guys as well, would lean forward enough just to give a hint of the girls to the desperate middle aged men.

That said nothing you can really do except look elsewhere. If management is afflicted by YPT syndrome it's never going to change.

Make a list of all you have achieved over the period since you last had the discussion re upgrading your title.
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:43 PM   #9
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It is an unfortunate fact of life. I saw lots of good looking, but marginal, people get promoted in my previous corporate life. All the top (male) management were well over 6 feet tall. Having a nice head of hair helps a lot, too. Some work environments are worse than others - you may need to move on until you find a culture that you can stand or learn to suck it up.

Wait until you get older, you'll see how much age bias exists at your work place, as well.
I am older. So, touche!! Double whammy. Or the single whammy. I didn't bring it up in my earlier post, posting only about my disappointment that this type of cr@p exists. For years our CEO was a woman who was even keeled and things were run the way they should be and promotions (or plain ol' raises) were given on merit. When she retired, a younger male CEO came on board and people of similar personality were brought on. The good ol' boys club doesn't exist in all instances, but in this case, it does.
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:45 PM   #10
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The creep factor, yep know what you mean about that. A couple of the YPT really knew how to play these guys as well, would lean forward enough just to give a hint of the girls to the desperate middle aged men.
I would never hire an unusually good looking woman, or a flirtatious one. They are either dangerous to your ego by making you look like a pathetic fool, (even to yourself) or dangerous to you legally by getting you involved in what you really really would like but know you are highly likely to be burned by.

You women should do everyone a favor and beat hell of these YPTs.

Ha
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:50 PM   #11
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You women should do everyone a favor and beat hell of these YPTs.

Ha
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Old 03-14-2011, 08:26 PM   #12
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If you need this job, by all means express your feelings but don't threaten to leave or give any sort of ultimatum....just quietly look for another job and then give notice (hmmm, maybe 1 day's notice?).
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:08 PM   #13
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Some of our best employees are YPTs. They have to work twice as hard because of their handicap.

To passap_va, you've been given the same message for quite a while (years?), it's time to move on.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:15 PM   #14
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I didn't bring it up in my earlier post, posting only about my disappointment that this type of cr@p exists. For years our CEO was a woman who was even keeled and things were run the way they should be and promotions (or plain ol' raises) were given on merit. When she retired, a younger male CEO came on board and people of similar personality were brought on. The good ol' boys club doesn't exist in all instances, but in this case, it does.
That type and other types of cr@p exists. Am wondering what the solution may be for you. He knows you wanted the promotion. He knows you would have been expecting it. Yet...
He needs to value you so...how do you get there?

I'm just going to throw a couple of things out there.....

First...make friends with her. The last thing you need is for her to put a negative bug in his ear about you. Become the one she comes to...to ask questions of and if possible make sure he sees some of it. She...will help advertise your virtues to him.
In other words....don't react in the manner he might be expecting. Surprise the heck out of him. That will help him see you in a different light.
Killem with kindness...is a good motto to have.

What type of relationship do you have with him?

At this point...since it is done...not sure I'd say anything specific to hiring PYT as that will put him on the defensive.
Maybe asking him what he sees ...or plans for your future role in the company? Or ask him what his plans for your department are...and how you can help him get there.... If applicable
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:24 PM   #15
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Me thinking, 'but you don't mind losing me', which is where I'm headed, although I'm having trouble finding another position...

That's a huge limiting factor for you. It's tough to negotiate w/o holding some cards.

-ERD50
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Old 03-15-2011, 02:24 AM   #16
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That type and other types of cr@p exists. Am wondering what the solution may be for you. He knows you wanted the promotion. He knows you would have been expecting it. Yet...
He needs to value you so...how do you get there?

I'm just going to throw a couple of things out there.....

First...make friends with her. The last thing you need is for her to put a negative bug in his ear about you. Become the one she comes to...to ask questions of and if possible make sure he sees some of it. She...will help advertise your virtues to him.
In other words....don't react in the manner he might be expecting. Surprise the heck out of him. That will help him see you in a different light.
Killem with kindness...is a good motto to have.

What type of relationship do you have with him?

At this point...since it is done...not sure I'd say anything specific to hiring PYT as that will put him on the defensive.
Maybe asking him what he sees ...or plans for your future role in the company? Or ask him what his plans for your department are...and how you can help him get there.... If applicable
Sheehs1, I commend you for your honorable suggestion.

However, I would not necessarily suggest such a 'friendly' route. I have no idea what this YPT is like, or about, or what her ulterior/interior motives are. She could be the milk of human kindness; on the other hand, I'm willing to bet that she is at least aware (on some level) of her YPT status, if not manipulating and using it to her advantage.

She knows she holds some sort of leverage and power over the management. If the OP tries to befriend her even more than he already has on a professional level, she will really be sitting up high on her throne, able to pull another set of strings to maneuver to her ability.

I honestly don't see any advantage for the OP in getting all friendly with YPT. The negative potential: he gives her even more knowledge/skills that she doesn't have, giving her an even better 'hand' to play in the corporate ladder, and making his rung even lower compared to hers.

The positive potential: the OP might develop some level of raport with her - but to what advantage? Do you really think YPT will "stand up" for the OP and put in a good word to the manager on his behalf? For what purpose? So he gets a promotion or raise, when it has all apparently gone to her? The fewer raises and promotions the manager hands out to the rank and file, the more he has to lavish on and woo YPT.

Again, YPT could very well be very kind hearted, innocent and honorable....but if she truly were, I don't think she'd already have accepted the promtions, given the apparent lack of skill set and experience she has compared to her co-workers. Or at the very least, would be busting a$$ to learn as much as possible to put herself on a level playing field.
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:56 AM   #17
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That's a huge limiting factor for you. It's tough to negotiate w/o holding some cards.

-ERD50
I have interviewed and gotten many calls about my resume found online, mostly for contract work. I've often been among the list of people presented to a company for a phone interview. My distance plays a factor, although I would be willing to move fast if needed. I have unique skills that make me marketable, but lack certain specific programming skills which would make me more marketable. And with this economy and the area of the country I'm looking to relocate to (Charlotte, NC, the south (SC) being my home), it limits my choices. I did go so far to be one of final four 'in person' interviewed in my home town, finding they didn't know what they wanted when I got there. Although I had a lot to offer, I understand their decision, as I could not have given them what they decided they needed. And much to my chagrin, they went against best practices and best advice (I'd given in my interview) and based the hire on a skill that is limiting online as we move into the world of the smart phone. Oi. Any ways, I digress.

Anyone hiring at Walmart? ;-)
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:58 AM   #18
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If you need this job, by all means express your feelings but don't threaten to leave or give any sort of ultimatum....just quietly look for another job and then give notice (hmmm, maybe 1 day's notice?).
I have been - quietly.
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Old 03-15-2011, 04:22 AM   #19
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That type and other types of cr@p exists. Am wondering what the solution may be for you. He knows you wanted the promotion. He knows you would have been expecting it. Yet...
He needs to value you so...how do you get there?
He knows I wanted a 'move' either vertically or horizontally (a change in title). The position advertised was for a job I currently do, so I couldn't have interviewed for it. We are expanding the department. I thought we'd bring in experience to the position, based on where we need to head fast. *surprise*

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First...make friends with her. The last thing you need is for her to put a negative bug in his ear about you. Become the one she comes to...to ask questions of and if possible make sure he sees some of it. She...will help advertise your virtues to him.
I am already. She does admit to everyone that I am the one who has trained her in the past. When I moved to my current position over 3+ years ago, I was told to make her the new me in my old position. Well - surprise - here she is again and I'm probably expected to train her again, and I just can't. She's obviously my alter ego, my other self, my younger self - getting all the glory.

Quote:
In other words....don't react in the manner he might be expecting. Surprise the heck out of him. That will help him see you in a different light.
Killem with kindness...is a good motto to have.
I pick my battles. I find it hard to advocate for myself. I find this position hard that I must go out there and say 'look at what I've done for the company' when he can see it. He mentions it all the time, without giving it a name.

Quote:
What type of relationship do you have with him?
We talk, and he will listen, but it's an at arm's length type of conversation. His eyes light up when talking to PYT.

Quote:
Maybe asking him what he sees ...or plans for your future role in the company? Or ask him what his plans for your department are...and how you can help him get there.... If applicable
Been there done that.

Many other than me are flabbergasted with what goes on in this dept/co. I am the one directly affected this time.
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Old 03-15-2011, 05:03 AM   #20
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I think the most you can do is to keep plugging at it and continue to do good work while looking for something better that you can either go to or use as leverage to get what you want. At the same time you can make it clear what you want and that you don't think that you have had a fair chance in the past and that you are not happy about it and expect things to change, with the subtle implication that if they don't you'll be moving on to greener (fairer) pastures.

Does this orgainzation do periodic evaluations and if so, when was your last evaluation and how was it? If it was recent and good, you can further point to that as something they need to factor into any future personnel decisions. If it has been a while, you could ask for an evaluation in the hope that the process itself will remind your manager the value you bring to the table and a recent good evaluation on file certainly won't hurt the cause.

If you have a HR dept it might make sense to tactfully express concerns about how positions have been filled in the past in the hope that HR will get involved and help make any future openings more objective.
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