Is MBA program worth the cost?

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Somewhere between being having wab for an in-law and 'gabes little sister' I let out a little shriek.

[justin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martha Justin's daughter just graduated with a degree in social work and is working for former president John Edwards at the Center on Poverty at the UNC school of law.

Time will only tell...

[kat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumby Of the two post-grad paths, it is my uninformed opinion that a starting lawyer will generally earn more than an associate professor of philosophy.

You could, of course, be right. But I never once chose a job or career based on my pay. And I did fine anyway.

[kat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gumby I see a common thread -- liberal arts degree followed by law school or a PhD so that you can teach. If you don't follow up a liberal arts degree with one of these, you may be in for tough sledding in the job market. Therefore, by choosing to major in philospohy, you are virtually locking yourself into some form of graduate/professional school, and quitting halfway though the process is worse than never having started.

Actually, I finally went to law school two years later because I wanted the two years to make my own choice, not because Dad, Grandpa, brother, uncle, cousins, did it before me.

I did not get a PhD in philosophy despite all the encouragement because I did not need it to work in a soup kitchen, which was my first job choice after college.

I'm so grateful for Mom and Dad. It's my life, not theirs, and they know that -- most of the time. Dad did say if I went to such and such law school (his alma mater) he'd pay for it. I wanted to go someplace else, so I paid for it. So what.

[Gumby]

..

[setab]

Frankly, I think going to college to get a good job is one of the poorest reasons to go. Go to college to get an education, get away from home, learn how to take care of yourself. or learn what your alcohol tolerance is. If you want a good job, start a business. We Boomers were always told that if we got an education, we would make more than those who didn't. Then we got theory, philosophy and liberal arts morality (loved them all by the way). We didn't get anything that taught us how to save, invest or balance a check book. We also didn't get jobs that made us more money. In short, we were sold a bill of goods. Bought it anyway.

setab

[justin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by setab Frankly, I think going to college to get a good job is one of the poorest reasons to go. .... If you want a good job, start a business. .... We also didn't get jobs that made us more money.

Nobody is saying you can't party your a$$ off in college, but if you're gonna spend 4 years of your life doing something, it'd be nice to have that followed by a well-paying career (instead of 2-5 more years of grad/professional school and the accompanying partying - and loans).

Re: starting a business instead of going to college - I can only imagine the bitter disappointment and frustration that the typical high school grad with minimal real world skills and no college education would experience after starting (and quickly ending) their first business venture.

Endless statistics have shown that college grads make much more than high school grads, even factoring in the 4 years of partially lost earnings.

[Craig]

Not always, but I sometimes find that those who extol education for education's sake, and to hell with the practicality of it ... sometimes have safety nets others didn't have. If the family is there for you when you fall / fail it can feel differently from when there is no home to return to, and you either swim or drown on your own.

I was in the "no home to return to" situation, and it was either get very, very practical, or expect a very tough life ... ergo, an accounting degree, followed by the MBA. Gave me the means to raise a family, and now close to ER, and my spare time is for my less practical avocations. It is possible to get an education that helps you think and enjoy life (e.g. electives, night classes, etc.), while also covering the practical bases.

[justin]

Is education intrinsically valuable or instrumentally valuable? It can be both.

[setab]

Justin,

Again, I cannot disagree with that, and, therefore, must agree. Also, all I'm saying is that college is a time to explore and learn...about lots of different things. When you really examine a lot of the course work, it is pretty theoretical and pie in the sky stuff. You really learn how to make a living when you get out and do it.

As for those statistics...I'm not certain they are a fair measure of anything. They include in the non college group the large mass of people who never intended to further their skills and/or education and never planned to do anything to get higher paying jobs. All I know is I did tax returns for a lot of trucki drivers when I was in private practice and almost all of them made more than I did. But, maybe that was more a reflection on me than them.

setab

[justin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by setab Again, I cannot disagree with that, and, therefore, must agree. Also, all I'm saying is that college is a time to explore and learn...about lots of different things. When you really examine a lot of the course work, it is pretty theoretical and pie in the sky stuff. You really learn how to make a living when you get out and do it. As for those statistics...I'm not certain they are a fair measure of anything. They include in the non college group the large mass of people who never intended to further their skills and/or education and never planned to do anything to get higher paying jobs. All I know is I did tax returns for a lot of trucki drivers when I was in private practice and almost all of them made more than I did. But, maybe that was more a reflection on me than them.

Depends on where you practice law. A lot of lawyers just don't earn that much money. It's a little secret that nobody ever talks about.

A lot of truck drivers also don't make that much money. Many of them also find the lifestyle disagreeable for obvious reasons. But I also mentioned above, if you don't want to get a career-oriented degree, then go to trade school/community college. Go to a truck driving school, get certified and licensed, and drive trucks. Hope it works and you don't end up like my buddies that did that and are now back to delivering furniture, changing oil, and/or ringing up customers at the retail establishment of the month.

Nobody said you can't read Locke, Descartes, Rousseau, Kant, Aristotle, Plato and Nietze on the sly while you're in truck driving school.

I see your point about the stuff that is taught in college being theoretical in nature and your career is mostly on the job training. True enough for many degrees. But if you get a career-oriented degree, that is your meal ticket. It gets you in the door.

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by justin Point is, I view college as a practical place to learn how to make a good living.

i sort of agree with this, given today's market, but also i'm so glad my parents didn't apply such thinking to me. good thing i'm not raising kids, huh?

mom didn't care that i made enough money to retire early as she was a workaholic. she once said to me, find something you enjoy doing that pays the bills. her priority was being happy, not wealthy.

when you work to be wealthy, you can fail. when you work to be happy, you might even wind up wealthy.

[yelnad]

Gumby said:

Quote:

but that, in any event, grad school (of whatever flavor) should immediately follow college.

Most top tier MBA programs want you to have 3-5 years of work experience before they will consider your application.

[Gumby]

I did not know that. Thanks.

[BunsGettingFirm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yelnad Gumby said: Most top tier MBA programs want you to have 3-5 years of work experience before they will consider your application.

Yeah, one of the reasons is so that the class discussions will be based somewhat on reality, but the other reason is so that the graduates will report higher salaries when they're done with the program.

[Craig]

Quote:

Nobody said you can't read Locke, Descartes, Rousseau, Kant, Aristotle, Plato and Nietze on the sly while you're in truck driving school.

* Exactly.

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Most top tier MBA programs want you to have 3-5 years of work experience before they will consider your application.

* This is very practical as well ... I had that spread of time, just through luck, and lack of funds.* It worked out great.* It was a constant experience that we would cover something in class, and I'd either be applying it that week with clients (while at a public accounting firm), or I'd recognize the issue from a real work experience.*

The core classes in the MBA program meant much more to me after working in business, and the concepts sunk in much better as the core classes were effectively a review and deeper coverage of core business concepts we covered in my BS.

[Caroline]

Quote:

Is education intrinsically valuable or instrumentally valuable?* It can be both.

I'll agree with that.* I've already reported on the intrinsic value of my philosophy degree -- but it had practical value as well.

When I left the Navy I got an office manager's job at an actuarial firm.* I got more and more into supporting the actuaries and they eventually offered me a promotion to actuarial assistant.* Because I had payroll responsibilities I knew that the other assistants were making about twice what I was, so I asked for a raise.* I was told that the others had college degrees, while I did not, and that management wouldn't give me a raise for that reason.

Because I had access to employee files as part of my job I looked up those college degrees.* Education, Public Policy, English Literature... nice degrees, but not at all related to actuarial science.*

They didn't have to tell me twice.* I quit the job, went to Berkeley for a BA, which was the ticket to the MBA program, which got me into the booming software industry, etc. etc.

A college degree may NOT guarantee you a good salary, but lack of a degree is a great excuse to continue to give you a poor one.

One person's experience...

[setab]

"A college degree may NOT guarantee you a good salary, but lack of a degree is a great excuse to continue to give you a poor one."

That is an excellent point.

setab

[Eagle43]

Yep, I had a professor tell me that "We are all here for that piece of paper. If we also happen to learn something, all the better." Cynical, but true. The problem is there are too many yahoos standing in line with that piece of paper for Mega-corp to take many chances on the non-degreed. That said, you can do it, but it's wayyyyy harder. I've also heard that the advanced degree gets you in the door at a higher level, but once in, it's up to you how fast/far you advance. At the executive level, being a good golfer is probably better than having an MBA.

[yakers]

I haven't seen it addressed here and I think it both a good and a bad thing but another thing that a college degree, MBA or iother degree offors is "connections". Some years back our govt agency (NASA) had a serious problem with the local Army base. We were "right" but being totally ignored (well, worse than that). We contacted the head of our science function who just happned to be the college (West Point) roommate of the Sec of the Army. Problem got resolved remarkably quickly.

I expect these connections are even more critical in industry. College can be good for that.

And no one mentioned finding a spouse in college? Could pay out better than an MBA, but also can include downside risk.