It is a long hard struggle...

[Sarah in SC]

What we do is pick a couple of categories of the budget that are much looser than the rest of the stuff. We've found if we sacrifice in some areas that don't mean a lot to us, then we can really save there, giving us some much-needed wiggle room in other parts. Every couple is different, but for us we found that we can save massively by driving older, really cheap (like under $5k) cars that we repair ourselves, not really caring much about clothes or home furnishings, and skipping having kids, we are able to splurge more on the stuff that DOES matter--going out with friends, traveling, boating, and enjoying our free time.

Maybe a look back through the budget might find some give and take that would help you both keep an eye on the future while enjoying the present.

 

[ShortInSeattle]

I could be out of line, but I wonder if the problem might be that you and your SO don't see eye to eye on what the priorities should be. It's one thing to think "gosh I'd really love to go to France this year...." And feel bummed about it. It's harder when it's the spouse that is feeling gipped out of France when you want to save.

If you're feeling too virtuous, find a little splurge. If you're arguing about money, work on that.

I also realize you may have simply been venting, not looking for fixes. If that is the case, let me just agree that it can be hard once in a while. We find a lot of happiness in our "save like mad and get outta the rat race ASAP" life, but most of the people we know would find our choices to be a burden.

Cheers,

SIS

PS: We kept our college furniture for 14 years. I still ooh and aah at our "new stuff" which is several years old!

 

[UnderTheRadar]

Thanks Tim. Yes, family of 4, wife stays at home. Our kids have an idealic childhood which is important to us.

We are definitely building wealth - and the option to retire at 55. I regularly play a loop of Dave Ramsey's quote in my head - " live like nobody else today so you can live like nobody else tomorrow".

Don't feel sorry for me - I just wanna know what script everyone keeps playing in their heads. Telling the boss to shove it doesn't quite do it for me since I typically enjoy the work I do (not that I want to keep doing it forever).

 

[UnderTheRadar]

Thanks everyone for your responses. You all may be onto something that my wife and I may not be on the same page with our saving rate. In truth, she is a little fatalistic and probably believes we prob will not be alive after 60! (joke, partly)

 

[chris2008]

Discuss with her what is her benefit of saving.
Soon the kids will leave the house. If there are not sufficient savings she might have to take every crazy job that is available to fund college cost + her + your retirement as you both have lost the early years.

The David Ramsey quote is not for me. I would not want to sacrifice today completely so that I can live the high life in some distant future. For me it is good enough to live a small but good life today and tomorrow. No comparison to others necessary.

 

[sunnysideup]

First thing I thought was, it's okay if you cuss a bit, at least you are talking about money!!! It's worse if you don't talk about it.

I also think you need to reward yourselves, add that into the budget. We LBYM but the one category that is important to us is vacationing. We get away 2 or 3 weeks every year, and we stay within the vacation budget to do so!

My reaction to your use of the term "idyllic childhood" is when you aim for perfection you set your self up for failure. Is your approach to your budget a perfectionist approach? You may need to allow for some flexibility...?

Best wishes.

 

[FUEGO]

Ahhh, I see! Your wife probably has no problem with you working forever! So why not spend the money now and live better. After all, all the other stay at home moms in her circles probably take nicer vacations and have nicer cars (paid for with HELOCs and credit cards).

I have to admit if I was a stay at home dad and my wife was working to support the whole family, I would be feeling in a pretty sweet position. No need to scrimp and save if you have a relatively cush "job" of stay at home parent. Especially once the kids are in school. Maybe that is cynical, but that could be the disconnect between your desire to save save save and her desire to spend more and save less.

Maybe focus on longer term - once the kids are in college or at least out of the house, what kind of career is she going to pursue to help accelerate the retirement savings at that point if you spend more right now for present enjoyment? Or are her ER plans to be retired as soon as the last kid is out of the house? Maybe she is on track for her early retirement...

 

[rodi]

There can be compromise in budget constraints.
For us - we like to go to Europe... but don't do it every year... more like every five years. In the alternate years we do more local (cheaper) vacations to national parks.

Our furniture is a combo of hand me downs and very old furniture. It may not be fancy - but it functions well and friends mention often that our house is comfortable.

We DIY on home improvements, yard maintenance, etc. Why pay for labor. We both work - but on weekends we (and the kids) are getting stuff done.

Like you we focus on the kids having a good upbringing. Our spending priorities are things like funding their 529's and contributing to the (phenomenal) non-profit foundation at their school.

 

[Milton]

I suggest that you and your wife have a heart-to-heart discussion about which of the following options are most important to you as a couple:

(1) providing an idyllic childhood for your offspring, including a stay-at-home mom;

(2) fancy cars, nice vacations, and frequent eating out;

(3) you having the option of retiring at age 55.

You can afford two of the above, but not all three. There's nothing unusual about that, and no point in worrying - or arguing - about it. Pretending otherwise will just lead to undue stress.

 

[Lazarus]

I suggest that you and your wife have a heart-to-heart discussion about which of the following options are most important to you as a couple:

(1) providing an idyllic childhood for your offspring, including a stay-at-home mom;

(2) fancy cars, nice vacations, and frequent eating out;

(3) you having the option of retiring at age 55.

You can afford two of the above, but not all three. There's nothing unusual about that, and no point in worrying - or arguing - about it. Pretending otherwise will just lead to undue stress.

Same thing I faced. We chose 1 and 3.

 

[UnderTheRadar]

Milton, thanks for the perspective. I guess we are choosing 1 and 3 as well.

FUEGO, you are going to get me in trouble!

For those of you ER'rs who manage to amass the kinds of dollars needed while still spending money on furniture, extended vacations, etc...more power to you. I guess I was hoping that magically I could do the same. I have to assume your salary shovels are quite a bit larger than mine.

We talked yesterday about putting our saving on hold for 6-9 months so we could have a "financial vacation" ....but then decided not to out of fear we could not get ourselves back on course. We might really like the dark side! Ever done it?

 

[Milton]

For those of you ER'rs who manage to amass the kinds of dollars needed while still spending money on furniture, extended vacations, etc...more power to you.

I guess I was hoping that magically I could do the same. I have to assume your salary shovels are quite a bit larger than mine.

Unless you can increase your income by working harder or changing careers, unfortunately I don't think there are any shortcuts that are realistically open to you, given the - perfectly legitimate - decisions you've already committed to. I.e., a dual-earning, child-free couple will almost certainly be able to save and invest more than you and your wife ... even if that couple spends more on luxuries. But we all make choices, and presumably your children are a source of happiness and comfort.

I don't like the idea of a 6-9 month "financial vacation". I doubt that know if it would present much of a real risk of permanently derailing your LBYM / saving strategy (hopefully you have a reasonable amount of self-disciple), but it just seems rather pointless and unnecessarily self-indulgent.

I do think that it would be a good idea to allow yourself (and your wife) the occasional luxury from time to time; we all need that, otherwise life can be mere drudgery. And suspending your savings for a fixed period to allow you to put the money towards a worthwhile project - e.g., meeting medical bills, paying off a mortgage, etc. - might be necessary from time to time. But that seems quite different from saying "let's just have fun and spend everything, que sera sera"; at least in my opinion.

P.S. As much as possible, try to focus on and appreciate the free things in life. This morning I saw two bluejays up close: magic, and didn't cost a cent!

 

[Lazarus]

One more thing to consider. Who says you will be able to work after 55? I have seen a lot of people laid off. Some have lost their health. A few have passed on.

As someone who has completed items 1 and 3. Item 2 doesn't seem very important.

 

[alicebillis]

Intro and thoughts on retirement

We are Bill and Alice, she's 53 and I'm 56. I resigned in March 2012 and she retired in May 2012. Retirement at our age was not planned, it just occurred through downsizing and our organizations restructuring pains during this current economy.

I tripped across this website, joined and believe I have hit the best thread of all and after reading everyone's take on retirement (however you got here or there) and I agree with many views about what becomes important or logical once you arrive at a certain age. The early years of work are spent struggling and you wonder if you'll ever drive something other than a crummy car, eat cheap food, drink cheap beer and liquor, live in lesser home's, and the list of standards goes on and on. Miracle's occur suddenly one day when most of us realize how much "STUFF" we have acquired.

On downsizing, my advice at this point is to keep the really good quality stuff that you treasure and utilize daily or often then enjoy it until you no longer need it. As a result our home is furnished with a lot of good quality auction items, a few antiques, and mostly inherited or passed on items from friends and family.

As for saving, I lost in a 401K repeatedly, she never participated in her 401K, therefore we never managed to save as we should have, however we did save a little salary and have a couple of CD's, some savings in the bank, some nearly worthless stocks, some United States Savings Bonds that are still earning at 4 percent interest. I've got an old 403b annuity that continues to earn 6 percent. The only other retirement income I can look forward to is my wife's retirement, our collective social security retirement if it continues to exist, and then my own annuity when eligible at 59.50. There may be an inheritance from parents but I'm not counting on that.

We recall saying that we would never be able to retire and that it was a worrysome thought about how it would be for us. Again, it came too early but in spite of ourselves and our decisions, we feel we will be alright and have the bases covered as far as monthly living expenses, health care (who knows about that) food, fun and travel. I've dropped out, could care less about the new iphone, or shopping to keep up. From this point forward it's all about what you must have to live, not what you think you have to have to live. Life becomes very simple and so far we are loving it!!

 

[FIYes]

This thread brought several thoughts to mind for me...first of all furniture. I used to call our style "early yard sale.". I remember feeling that we had reached a real milestone when I could say that we no longer had any furniture that was picked up from the side of the road on garbage day. Hey, I can no longer say that...old habits die hard and I now have a wicker table on my porch that a neighbor was discarding. Second, it is amazing how quickly you can go from not having much to "too much stuff.". I am now in a get rid of clutter phase.

Also, I second the idea of finding some little treats along the way.

 

[foxfirev5]

Don't mean to be harsh - but what are you living for if you're not enjoying yourself along the way. However I don't feel entirely confident in this assessment as i don't know what level of life you are actually living regarding basic needs vs wants.

 

[UnderTheRadar]

Ouch...
Funny - I thought this was the early retirement forum. It sounds like many can achieve this without too much sacrifice.
If it is so easy, I wonder why more don't achieve it?

 

[Milton]

"Not too much" sacrifice is correct; but that doesn't mean NO sacrifice. Absent inheritances or similar 'lottery wins', virtually anyone will find it necessary to prioritize and economize, to some extent.

Achieving FIRE is relatively simple (LBYM, invest the surplus, be patient and allow compounding to work its magic), but it isn't "easy" given that most people think short term and prefer instant gratification. Too, the vast sums spent on advertising endeavour to persuade us that we 'deserve' or 'need' various trinkets and frills (e.g., the cars and vacations you mentioned earlier) ... that is a powerful force that many are unable to resist.

 

[iam21177]

Is there some kind of happy medium for this vacation? Instead of holding off on months and months of savings (which you cannot get back) to splurge on an all out vacation, is there something a little more moderate but equally as fun that would fulfill the family?

My husband and I go on a vacation probably every 6 weeks on average. That's because our vacations are relatively cheap but we have access to great things out West.

However, I bet all these trips added up for the year don't even come close to your average family cruise vacation.

Try not to compare your situations so much to others. Same for your wife. Is she the one looking at everyone's fancy cars and nice furniture? Or you? I think the discrepancy could do a lot with the huge range of salaries out there. There are going to be lots of different lifestyles.

I have been in a relationship where we were not on the same page about the overall money plan. It's horrible! Makes life just so hard when one wants to spend and the other wants to save and it leads to daily fights! But it doesn't have to be this way, nor is it good for it to be this way. I hope you guys can have a heart to heart about the money plan and come up with some sort of compromise that works for both of you.

 

[Eyerishgold]

Wife and I constantly fight the monthly budget, cuss and discuss the vacations we are not taking, the cars we are not driving, the and the crappy furniture we still have! I guess I am just venting - what kind of pep talk do you give yourself to stay the course?

DW and I manage to have fun while still saving. I'd prefer to spend our money on travel and experiences rather than spend it on "stuff". We'd love to have "crappy furniture" rather than a largely unfurnished upstairs. But, it's a matter of choice. Sure, we get interesting looks from people who've never been in our home before and they ask how long we've been living here. (It's been over 3 years) I drive a 10 year old Jeep and I absolutely love it. Driving with the top down in the summer is still one of my very favorite things. We have a 19 month old son and 95% of his clothes are hand-me-down. As was his highchair and a majority of his toys.

All that being said, we've recently returned from a week in Jamaica. Over the past few years we've been to Las Vegas, Hawaii and New York twice each, the Bahamas, San Diego, chartered a catamaran for 10 days in the British Virgin Islands, and taken many other smaller trips including a yearly trip to the Pacific Northwest.

We just don't care about the material stuff. All that money other people spend on new clothes and new cars and other status symbols just don't really interest us. I'm sure we spend more on vacations and travel and experiences than a lot of folks but I'd rather live a bit, spend some money on travel and save what others are spending on "stuff".

 

[lhamo]

Ouch...
Funny - I thought this was the early retirement forum. It sounds like many can achieve this without too much sacrifice.
If it is so easy, I wonder why more don't achieve it?

I don't think there are all that many people here with two kids, a stay at home parent, and modest incomes who would say it is easy. Your saving rate of 15-25% is already pretty impressive given the single, modest income you are relying on. In our case, we are able to save roughly one of our full-time salaries. But if one of us were to SAH we would struggle to live below our means, much less save for the future. Part of the challenge in our case is that we live distant from both families, so we spend a large portion of income on travel, including transpacific flights 2x/year on average.

How old are your kids and is your spouse open to part-time work outside the home at some point? That could really accelerate things for you, if it is something you are open to.

 

[traineeinvestor]

I have to admit if I was a stay at home dad and my wife was working to support the whole family, I would be feeling in a pretty sweet position.

I would not. Now that both our children are in school, I would be feeling distinctly uncomfortable if I was a stay at home parent while my wife worked. I would not want DW to be forced to keep working to support my chosen lifestyle.

That said, DW does intend to keep working part time after I retire next year. We have had a number of discussion on this and I am comfortable that she is doing this because she wants to - not because she feels that we need the additional income or has any concerns about our finances.

 

[FUEGO]

I would not. Now that both our children are in school, I would be feeling distinctly uncomfortable if I was a stay at home parent while my wife worked. I would not want DW to be forced to keep working to support my chosen lifestyle.

That said, DW does intend to keep working part time after I retire next year. We have had a number of discussion on this and I am comfortable that she is doing this because she wants to - not because she feels that we need the additional income or has any concerns about our finances.

I feel the same way actually - I wouldn't want to force DW to work so that I can live the life of relative leisure. But at the same time, if that gig fell in my lap and DW just loved her job immensely (in some alternate reality), I would be living it up.

My point is that if I were a stay at home dad of school age kids (or even with a 5 month old plus 2 school age kids like I am now), the burden of stay at home dadding is much lower than the burden of dealing with work, office politics, commuting, expense reports, time sheets, office politics, a$$hole bosses, incompetent bureaucracies etc etc ad nauseam. Of course it wouldn't be fair to make DW to endure the hardship of working so that I could lounge about a significant part of the day.