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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 01:33 AM   #21
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Re: Knowing when to move on

You'll never know if a job move is a good one. If after your decision things turn out good, they could have turned out better had you made the opposite decision. If they turn out bad, they could have turned out worse.

Promotions, increases in salary, etc. can be followed by long-term stagnation or worse.

Since the half-life of the typical corporate manager today is on the order of 12 to 18 months, you can't even make the decision based on how you get along with your current boss or think you'll get along with your new one.

At the end of the day, deciding whether to jump ship or not is a gut level decision. Make your decision and don't look back.

Good luck.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 04:16 AM   #22
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
Thanks, all, I've been at my current employer in one way or another for 5 years now, I think at my age that shows I'm not a mercenary.*

I do have very specific things I want from my new job, so I expect my interview (if I get one) will be more two sided than the last time I went for a job.* I am enjoying the luxury of knowing there is no urgency to move on, but knowing I don't want to get complacent and settle for good enough/boring, steady work.* I'll update if I get a nibble.* *
I believe I posted that I held 8 full time jobs (7 moves) until I quit. No regrets about any
move. Here are timelines and reason for departure:

1963-65 Better position and more $ (local move)
1965-73 Better position and more $ (local move)
1973-76 Quit over dispute with partners (moved out of state)
1976-79 Fired
1979-82 Lateral move for more desireable geographical location
1982-87 Fired
1987-90 Consulted full time
1990-93 Owned and ran small manufacturing company
1993 Semiretired

Over the 30 years I might have unemployed 2 months or so twice.
With unemployment comp. and severance pay I never had a complete
interruption in my income stream. The standard advice for unemployed
people is to treat the job search as your full time job. That's what I did.

JG
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 07:53 AM   #23
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Laurence:

I made a move earlier this year and I have historically been willing to jump when I have felt I was undervauled or getting into a rut and not learning anything new. My most recent move was after three years in the same position at a firm that was paying out 1 and 2% raises amid record profits every year. There was no promotion opportunity and better pay was not forthcoming. I had been bored for a year and was ready to move on. I jumped to amuch riskier place to be, but in return for the risk I got:

- More money, although most of the juice is in the bonus (not guaranteed)
- More freedom, since I now work in a 7 person firm where everybody does a little of everything (nor corporate silos)
- The chance to learn very valuable skills that arre extremely marketable and lay the foundation for the next 10 years of my career

The downside is the risk that the job or the company could go poof! on a moment's notice, and longer hours. I felt the trade-offs were worth it, and my wife agreed. I likely won't do this more than a few years (burnout will be an issue long term), but it is well worth it in the meantime for both the money and the skills.

If you are ready to make a move (sounds like it to me, quite frankly), put a dollar value on your current total package (pay, benefits, intangibles, etc.). Then get out there and start marketing yourself.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 10:02 AM   #24
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Company loyalty is dead! I gave the best years of my life, all 24 of them to one company and did all the required moves and was on a fast track until I hit the glass ceiling and my mentors left the company. I took ER from that company as part of a RIF and came out with a small pension and the promise of health insurance.

We moved and I took another job but for less money. But the cost of living is a bit lower so it was not that much of a hit especially since I started getting my pension early so the difference in pay is not that much.

This company has no pension, no retirement health insurance, and no retirement ownership of stock option grants. Their 401(k) is not too bad but that is all they have so leaving here will be easy after I get vested in Oct. Then I can pull the plug anytime I want.

Moving to a different job should be a very thought out decision. I like the old phrase "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't". I have found this to be true too many times. However, if the present job has no future for you financially, then the company you are working for will never reward you with money. Plaques and your picture in the newpaper will not put bread on the table or give you $$ to invest for your future. Follow the money but be sure you can live with the new company.

ER is about having the bucks and the mindset to get off the treadmill. My plan will spring into action in 24 months; or less. Have an exit strategy but in the meantime, get paid for what you do or learn to enjoy being used by your company.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 10:17 AM   #25
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Re: Knowing when to move on

I don't know how people can put up with the worries of getting fired by your boss, having a bad boss, showing up to work when your boss tells you to, begging your boss for time off, asking your boss to leave early, asking your boss for a pay increase, and just knowing you are going through 1/3 of your life with a boss telling you what to do and how to do it.

Instead of worrying and complaining, just start your own business doing something you enjoy.* You may have some other problems, but nothing like the problems above.* My biggest problem in having my own business is that I put too many hours into it because I kept making more money the more clients I got.* Having your own business is like picking money off the floor.* At some point you just get tired of bending over to pick it up even though you see it laying in front of you.* The nice part about being self-employed is that you can cut down whenever you want or build up whenever you want.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 10:51 AM   #26
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Re: Knowing when to move on

I hear you R@40, I'm not neccesarily closed to the idea of my own business, but like a tattoo, I just haven't found anything I'm sure I want to be married to. Funny, I have a friend who is taking me out to lunch today to discuss his "business opportunity". It's not a pyramid scheme, it's muti-level marketing! Let me see, the one where they won't tell you anything about the business until you go to the group think session is Amway, right? Or is that scientology?

What leaves me chained to the corp world is I have a 10 month old with a lot of health issues. Now would not be a time to leave good health insurance behind. Plus all my succesful business owner friends seem to put in 80 hours a week...This line of thought is what led me to ER and megasaving/investing. I figured it was the next best thing to owning my own business.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 11:04 AM   #27
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
When I used to hire associates, I was uncomfortable with those who went from job to job.
Martha,

I don't mean to hijack Laurence's thread, but law firm partners are notorious for their unwillingness to take risks and share the wealth. Many law firm associates work very hard for their firms, billing enormous amounts of hours at high rates (this is different than just simply showing up and expecting to get paid top dollar). In so doing, they sacrifice their youth to generate hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for the partners. When bonus (or salary re-evaluation) time comes around, law firm partners often stiff those same associates out of money they earned based on various flimsy excuses (despite record profits per partner). After 5-7 years (and millions of dollars in collected fees later), many associates are shown the door when they have no clients for their efforts. Because associates are often shown no loyalty by their law firm employers, it should not come as a surprise that they become "mercenaries".
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 01:06 PM   #28
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Jay, remember Brewer's $h!t thread?

Like hijacking Laurence, we hijacked Brewer's thread on the same issue: jumping ship for a different job.

I never liked the large law firm model that presumes not all associates will make it to partnership. Requires failure no matter how good the associates perform. . Certainly bad for motivation and bad for loyalty.

I will say I am glad not to have the responsibility of hiring and firing any more.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 01:24 PM   #29
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Yes, I remember that particular thread, but point taken. Unfortunately, I was not just referring to the large law firm model -- such behavior occurs at all law firm levels. In fact, small firm lawyers can be even more stingy than their large firm counterparts.

Regardless, I think Laurence should test the waters. He has nothing to lose and everything to gain. Loyalty is great, as is gaining high-quality experience (even if you're being overworked in the process), but it comes down to one's own honest sense of self-worth. He shouldn't be afraid to move on just because some employer down the road (and not the one who might be offering him a job right here, right now, for more money) might think that he's a mercenary. In fact, he might garner some respect from a potential employer in answering the question "so why did you leave?" with the answer "more money." That response sends the message loud and clear that he knows his value, and won't hesitate to leave if he believes someone else values him more.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 01:29 PM   #30
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Re: Knowing when to move on

The funniest thing about that thread (in retrospect) is that I lasted almost exactly 6 months, vested the 401k money, and pulled the trigger. *They still haven't replaced me (4 months and counting) or the guy who left before me (10 months ago). *I got a call from my closest former colleague last week asking if I knew of any suitable jobs because he has finally had enough.

@ssholes. *All mgmt ever really had to do was pay a little more and not treat the rank and file like developmentally disabled kindergarten students. *Instead they will be continually paying up to hire more MBAs, CFAs, credentialled actuaries, etc.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 01:57 PM   #31
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatsby
Yn fact, he might garner some respect from a potential employer in answering the question "so why did you leave?" with the answer "more money." That response sends the message loud and clear that he knows his value, and won't hesitate to leave if he believes someone else values him more.

I would be hesitant to hire a guy who says this into a law firm--where we are looking for potential future partners.

But given today's environment and that Laurence has been at his job 5 years, I wouldn't worry to much about him being cast as a mercenary.

Quote from Brewer:
Quote:
@ssholes. All mgmt ever really had to do was pay a little more and not treat the rank and file like developmentally disabled kindergarten students. Instead they will be continually paying up to hire more MBAs, CFAs, credentialled actuaries, etc.
Looks like you made the right decision in jumping ship.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 02:52 PM   #32
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Re: Knowing when to move on

I don’t disagree with anything others have said.* I’m sure the messages all come from valid experiences.* But a lot of the advice doesn’t ring true for my career.* I think the factors that determine the best option of staying or leaving are very different depending on your career choice, your experience level, your location, etc.* Based on my own experience, here are some thoughts I’ve had while reading this thread so far.

On starting your own business to avoid having a boss:* That isn’t always an option.* If your career interest requires a multi-million or billion dollar infrastructure, it’s hard to go it alone.* For example, if you really want to work on avionics system designs, it’s hard to set up a business in your garage.* Plus, some people would rather deal with a boss and/or co-workers than to deal with customers.* “Customer” is just another name for “boss” to the independent.* If it works for you, go for it.* But it doesn’t work for everyone.

On company loyalty:* Loyalty might make sense in a small company where the loyalty is to the company founder who is likely to be there tomorrow.* But the half life of large corporate managers is short.* Corporate memory does not go beyond immediate management, so loyalty is as likely to be forgotten as rewarded.

On the value of staying for pension benefits:* Benefit packages need to be examined closely.* Pension benefits are seldom worth staying around for, but if you are near a milestone in benefits or have spent enough years at the company, they can be significant enough that they should be considered.* Also, if you do consider another position, you should be armed with specific information on what your existing package is worth so that you negotiate the best possible deal.* *

On the value of staying in one place:* If you are building a career – not just bringing home a paycheck from a job – it is probably important to you that you have some accomplishments.* Sometimes, the way you get things done is related more to your intimate knowledge of the informal mechanisms of the workplace rather than to your position.* When you start at a new place, you don’t know who the guru in the lab is, who can cut through the paper hurdles, what executive is most likely to sponsor new ideas rather than stifle them, etc.* It takes time to develop relationships and become as productive as you were in your old place.* Of course, if you’ve lost effectiveness in your current situation, this does not apply.

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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 02:55 PM   #33
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Thanks for the link to brewer12345's thread, that was before my time.

Brewer, you are now my office hell brudda, you already said it all!

My gut has spoken, after sending the resume and cover letter and recieving my "tracking number" from the new place, I became quite excited, no trepidation. It's time.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 07:44 PM   #34
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Quote:
Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
“Customer” is just another name for “boss” to the independent.
I never considered my clients my "boss" since they never told me when, how, or why to do my job. I am the shepherd and they are the sheep.

When you hate your boss, the only way to get rid of him is for you to quit and lose your job.

When you hate one of your customers, you tell them to take a hike, and you still have your job.

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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-25-2005, 10:58 PM   #35
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha

I would be hesitant to hire a guy who says this into a law firm--where we are looking for potential future partners.
It depends on how s/he puts it in the interview. If your firm allows a potential partner to keep more of what s/he collects, that would be reason enough to move in the minds of those with portable business. Partnership loyalty is nice, but when $50,000-$100,000 a year in additional income is involved, it has a tendency to go out the window.

I was speaking more in the non-legal sense, where someone has a unique skill set, and yet his/her employer isn't paying for it.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-26-2005, 12:52 AM   #36
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Didn't change jobs much. Never for money, only for interesting work, responsibility, and to work with outstanding people. I did turn down an offer once, thinking it was way too low. Would have made 10M+ in 5-8 years if I took it. All's well that ends well. For me, the keys were increasing responsibility and being aligned with the right people at the right time. I was looking to score big, not for incremental salary increases.
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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-26-2005, 06:52 AM   #37
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Quote:
Originally Posted by retire@40
I never considered my clients my "boss" since they never told me when, how, or why to do my job.* I am the shepherd and they are the sheep.

When you hate your boss, the only way to get rid of him is for you to quit and lose your job.

When you hate one of your customers, you tell them to take a hike, and you still have your job.

I never "hated" any of my customers, but I'd have been way ahead if I had
told a few to "take a hike". It seemed to me that customers were too
hard to find to then turn around and send them packing. Was always hoping to turn the 'bad"
customers into "good" customers. Didn't work.

JG

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Re: Knowing when to move on
Old 07-27-2005, 04:02 PM   #38
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Re: Knowing when to move on

Lawrence, here's an article on knowing when to look for another job:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/26/comm...hadi/index.htm

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Re: Knowing when to move on UPDATE
Old 08-09-2005, 12:01 PM   #39
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Re: Knowing when to move on UPDATE

UPDATE: Got a call back from the one company I applied to, I'm doing a phone interview. Any suggestions on what to say, what not to say? Wish me luck!

(Anyone else here feel like the blog their life on this forum? Like I told REWahoo, I can quit anytime! )
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Re: Knowing when to move on UPDATE
Old 08-09-2005, 12:06 PM   #40
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Re: Knowing when to move on UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurence
UPDATE:* Got a call back from the one company I applied to, I'm doing a phone interview.* Any suggestions on what to say, what not to say?* Wish me luck!(
Yep. Don't say you are wearing a pink thong. Other than that, I can't think of anything helpful.

ha
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