Marriage and FIRE

[Bankerwithabrain]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt34 That was the mistake I made the first time. Having learned my lesson I made sure that was discussed before marrying the second time.

It's a difficult thing to discuss I think. Especially things like current net worth. (Let's be honest, most of us talk more freely about our net worth on these forums than to any people in our non-virtual lives.)

Someone also mentioned earlier how "frugal" is considered "not sexy" to women.

Even if you have the discussion right before deciding to get engaged - and she/he mentions that they have a significant amount of debt - would you walk away from someone you who you seemingly have deep feelings for?

During dating you also put on airs regarding money (at least I do). For example, if you go to a ball game on date I think it's appropriate to spend the $10 on drinks while in my personal life I likely wouldn't. (Or sneak it in.... )

[FUEGO]

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Originally Posted by Bankerwithabrain During dating you also put on airs regarding money (at least I do). For example, if you go to a ball game on date I think it's appropriate to spend the $10 on drinks while in my personal life I likely wouldn't. (Or sneak it in.... )

This would be a good weed out. Go ahead and bring your own stash. When you whip your flask out, see if she whips her flask out. If you get anything less than a "wow, that's a pretty clever idea", then dump her.

[daylatedollarshort]

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Originally Posted by Bankerwithabrain Even if you have the discussion right before deciding to get engaged - and she/he mentions that they have a significant amount of debt - would you walk away from someone you who you seemingly have deep feelings for?

Yes, I have done that. A really cute and nice guy, perfect in every way except he had too much graduate school debt (I had zero student debt) and a location dependent profession where my career, even though my top salary would be less, allowed a lot of mobility, even moving to other countries if I wanted.

I just put a high price on financial and geographic freedom.

You have to look at the total package. Or as a funny Amazon reviewer put it for men, you have to think with the big head about these kinds of matters.

If you are putting on financial airs during dating, then you aren't weeding out the spendthrifts.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankerwithabrain During dating you also put on airs regarding money (at least I do). For example, if you go to a ball game on date I think it's appropriate to spend the $10 on drinks while in my personal life I likely wouldn't. (Or sneak it in.... )

Everyone, male and female, fakes it during dating, acting in ways that they believe will make them look more desirable. Women may take it very far, with boob jobs, crash diets to look good for special occasions, and a lot of money spent on hair, skin, nails, etc. I for one applaud this, as much of it is on their dime, and it does make them more attractive to most, though perhaps not all men.

For a man, once out of school, sex is rarely totally free, and all costs in, not often cheap. I think $10 spent on beers is a total steal. And if nothing comes of it, you at least have consumed a beer during a nice sunny afternoon with a pretty woman at the ballpark.

Ha

[LoneAspen]

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Originally Posted by jollystomper I haven't searched to find the source, but I heard a discussion on the radio on Sunday related to this discussion, on an all news station. It was said around 58% of couples who plan to get married do not discuss money or finances before the marriage. A few reason were given such as "afraid to scare the other person off", "wanting to keep some degree of privacy", etc. Interesting.

That definitely wouldn't be me. Finances would be one of the FIRST things to be discussed before starting down the marriage path.

For me, marriage would be just as much (if not more) a business/financial relationship as an emotional one.

A later poster asked if you would dump, or avoid, somebody you had feelings for if they had a bad financial picture. Sorry to say, yes I would. Nothing good could come of it otherwise. Assuming I'm able to (semi?) retire in a couple years, I will have viewed myself as working my entire life to become FI, and it's not my job to bail somebody out of their own financial predicaments - they're on their own on that one (that's where my theory on "yours", "mine", and "ours" finances comes into play, also).

Even if somebody went along with that, they really wouldn't. They'd get more and more upset that their financial picture was in the dumps and you were doing nothing to pay off their debts. Not a recipe for a happy relationship, so I wouldn't let myself get into that position in the first place. If they're bankrupt, deep in debt, etc, keep on walking.

[Arifriekinel]

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Originally Posted by haha Everyone, male and female, fakes it during dating, acting in ways that they believe will make them look more desirable. Women may take it very far, with boob jobs, crash diets to look good for special occasions, and a lot of money spent on hair, skin, nails, etc. I for one applaud this, as much of it is on their dime, and it does make them more attractive to most, though perhaps not all men. For a man, once out of school, sex is rarely totally free, and all costs in, not often cheap. I think $10 spent on beers is a total steal. And if nothing comes of it, you at least have consumed a beer during a nice sunny afternoon with a pretty woman at the ballpark. Ha

I remember thinking the BLS statistics on single people were very interesting. Guys spend about $500 annually on alcohol, women about $200, but the difference is negated by women spending $500 annually on beauty care, while guys only spend about $200.
Single Women 2011

Single Men 2011

[Onward]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha For a man, once out of school, sex is rarely totally free, and all costs in, not often cheap.

First Guy: "You ever pay for sex?"

Second Guy: "Yeah. I got a mortgage."

[obgyn65]

Can anyone please explain this joke ? I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Onward First Guy: "You ever pay for sex?" Second Guy: "Yeah. I got a mortgage."

[gauss]

Is it that he pays for a lot of sex?

-gauss

[REWahoo]

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Originally Posted by obgyn65 Can anyone please explain this joke ?

You had to be there.

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

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Originally Posted by REWahoo You had to be there.

It was a lot easier when interest was high.

[packrat44]

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Originally Posted by Bankerwithabrain OK - But let's say that a high maintenance girl (who was good in every other way) also came with a dowry of say $2m-$3m? Would you take that deal? What number would it have to be. It would be weird marrying someone wealthy and essentially making the last 10 years of frugal living moot. Not sure I could ever adjust my mind set or habits.

It is amazing how fast someone can burn through $2/$3M if they learned the art of spending with no limits from an early age.

[jollystomper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankerwithabrain Even if you have the discussion right before deciding to get engaged - and she/he mentions that they have a significant amount of debt - would you walk away from someone you who you seemingly have deep feelings for? During dating you also put on airs regarding money (at least I do). For example, if you go to a ball game on date I think it's appropriate to spend the $10 on drinks while in my personal life I likely wouldn't. (Or sneak it in.... )

For the first point above, the view I have is not so much the amount of debt but what they are planning to do about it. My DW had debt but acknowledged she wanted to do something about it, both asking for my guidance and following through on some of the suggestions I made.

For the 2nd point, I never did. Perhaps that was due to growing up with little or no money. Even at my Ivy League school I was never tempted to act/pretend I was richer than I was. It seemed too dangerous.

I'll always remember this incident in college. It was my 3rd or 4th date with DW, we weren't an "item" yet. There was a big event happening at another local college that weekend, and I had planned to take her, planning to pay for the expenses with my next paycheck. Come Friday I find that due to some problem I wouldn't be getting a check that weekend, the amount would be added to my next paycheck. I could have asked someone to loan me the money, but I always disliked doing that. Instead I told future DW that I didn't have the money and couldn't take her to the event, and would understand if she went with someone else (other guys had also asked her). Instead... she suggested "why don't we go somewhere else that doesn't cost anything?" So instead of going to the event we got food from the dining room and had a picnic and walked the trails of a nearby park. That is when I started to develop deeper feelings for her - it showed me she cared more about spending time with me than me spending my money on her.

[MichaelB]

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Originally Posted by Rich_by_the_Bay It was a lot easier when interest was high.

It was even easier when everyone was high.

[Sarah in SC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelB It was even easier when everyone was high.

[Walt34]

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Originally Posted by Bankerwithabrain It's a difficult thing to discuss I think. Especially things like current net worth. (Let's be honest, most of us talk more freely about our net worth on these forums than to any people in our non-virtual lives.) Someone also mentioned earlier how "frugal" is considered "not sexy" to women.

Money priorities were discussed, but admittedly I mostly just paid close attention to how she behaved with money. At the time her income was half of mine, she was renting a room with a relative (close to her job) and I was definitely house-poor. At times a "big night on the town" was renting a movie, sending out for pizza, and a fire in the fireplace with wood I'd cut. If I'd had some overtime I'd spring for a bottle box of wine. But we both were sure that was a temporary condition as housing prices - and rent - were rising so it made more sense long-term to buy a house than to rent even if one's lifestyle was crimped for a few years.

A big issue with me was and is credit card debt, which I loathe. This is the 21st century and it would be difficult to manage without them, but we pay them off in full every month. Both of us are incredulous at so many apparently intelligent people paying cc interest on five figures of debt. It is, as my grandma used say "Not so bright".

And to me her income wasn't much of a factor, just that she did have a job that was steady and responsible. At the time she worked in a payroll office and if she didn't do her job people didn't get paid, with the resulting howls if that happened.

And she was looking for the same thing - responsibility and reliability. Almost 30 years later she still thinks I'm the "best thing that ever happened" to her.

Hopefully she'll never wise up.

[P.S.]

I've thought alot about this thread. Yesterday was my 13th anniversary and it was very sweet. Each stage of marriage is kind of different, because people change, circumstances change, little peeps are added. But I was motivated to answer, OP, because I was curious why a seemingly successful banker (with a BRAIN!) would post such a question online.

And so I nosey-ed (sic) into your old posts and stumbled onto your "Dreaming..." thread. That was a few years ago, and alot can change in a person in a few years time, especially around this stage in your life. Hopefully, when you look back on that thread, you wince, maybe even flush in the privacy of your home, and wish that you could delete those posts. Maybe not. But therein lies the answer to your question.

Because there are plenty of frugal girls out there. I consider myself one... though I wear Jimmy Choos. And sleep on Porthault linen. And mostly buy organic and local for my family.

If you want to look at the black and white: it's the bottom line (which I don't mean to sound pedantic b/c I am sure you know this better than I). If I make alot of money, then I can spend more than the average women, and still save alot.

But the key for you, in regards to the situation you describe in the OP, is what kind of person you are. B/c a woman who has worked her way through the educational system, society at large, achieved that job, and and on top of that, has values that can be described as frugal, will be of a particular character beyond just the money stuff. Does that make any sense?

Before DH and I were engaged, we never talked about money (2.5 mo). I guess we were busy talking about other things. (and for you dirty minded men...no, we weren't doing other things) But in that period of time, you still get a good idea of what someone is like.

In my line of work (medicine), residency programs interview prospective applicants for a full day before choosing. Interview is probably the most important aspect of your application, esp. for the subsurgical specialties because you will be spending 80-100 hours a week with this person, in oftentimes very stressful and demanding situations. And throw in sleep deprivation, healthy food deprivation, and good exercise deprivation, and well, the worst in people truly come out. So programs want to be sure they are getting someone good.

I always thought that salesmen and people like bankers were good people people. And in my younger days, thought medicine was great cause I just do the medicine stuff and don't have to "deal" with people. HAH!

I guess this is my long way of saying that it is not so much "finding" the beautiful woman who is also frugal and makes alot money. Because she is out there, in multiples. I can almost guarantee you have met at least one or more of her. And she has looked at you, listened to you, and studied you.
But are you the "right" man for her?

[Bankerwithabrain]

Thanks for your response, although I don't think you really added much to the conversation. (Except for insults.)

I don't know why you think posting something like this to the internet is so foolish? I find the internet to be a great place to speak with like minded people. I don't think I am the smartest person in the world - and even if were - you can always gain from the insight of others. Especially others who may have more experience than you.

I find that in the non-virtual world, it is sometimes difficult to have "real" conversations with people. It is gauche to discuss financial matters with most acquaintances. So alas I turn to the good people on ER.

In regard to my previous thread, I still believe what I wrote was in jest and that it shouldn't have been taken so seriously (if that is what you are referring to?) I do cringe to see that I had a goal of $1.2m by 30 but only made it to $600k.

That is a perfect example of a thread which helped me become smarter and frame life in a better perspective. At that point in my career I was killing myself for money. I woke up and found a job for the last few years that I actually enjoy more, have more free time, and am only paid slightly less (compared to a starting salary there at least).

Your last point of finding many quality women is easy, but that I have to fix myself, is basically just insulting. You barely know me, except that I am inquisitive and hope to learn from others on the internet. Oh yeah, also that I might have made a joke that some considered in poor taste once. (Let's be honest, most people who tell jokes occasionally walk on a very thin line. See Joan Rivers (whom i detest and think crosses the line too frequently.)

[daylatedollarshort]

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Originally Posted by Bankerwithabrain Your last point of finding many quality women is easy, but that I have to fix myself, is basically just insulting.

I thought your posts were fine. I didn't get the whole wince, flush and want to delete your posts jabs either, and besides insulting, thought they were condescending and just plain weird.

[P.S.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort I thought your posts were fine. I didn't get the whole wince, flush and want to delete your posts jabs either, and besides insulting, thought they were condescending and just plain weird.

BWAB,
I am very sorry as clearly I poorly communicated my intent. I apologize if my response implied you need to change because there is no way I could know or even determine this. I do not know you at all. All I know of you are your posts that I have read on this forum.
The wince flush delete comments referred to not one of your posts on this thread. I was referencing your comments on the Dreaming thread, and as you indicate that you see nothing wrong with them, then please disregard my comments as opinion.
I should probably not have even referenced them, though in my mind, different pics of a person do (often) connect.

To clarify, I do not think finding a quality woman is easy. Neither a quality man. But I do believe that a quality woman is not a rara avis. But I do not believe there is anything easy or simple about it.

Neither do I think your OP was at all foolish. For all we know, it may be the actual way you find your life's partner.

What I did find was curious, as in arousing interest. Enough to interest me to
read your other posts.

And that, along with your reply... I will sign off as I do not want to further offend. Please know that I was trying to help, though clearly misguided.

I think it is wonderful when person has a good soul mate. Good luck to you.