Proposal to not pay military retirement until 57!

Ziggy29 thanks for the apology; it is appreciated but not necessary!

I was 38, born 10/40 Retired 7/79. See #16, above, for a partial AD resume (would have been 13 months earlier except I had to serve out a promotion "lock in"). I did not, nor did anyone else, that I know of, see anything wrong with it, at the time. BTW I and my 2 Sons have a combined total in excess of 50 years military AD between us and one, not me obliviously, is still counting.
 
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Having worked mega-corp my whole life, I have to say I have yet to be shot at or bombed, so I'm going to say I can live with the military getting retirement pay at 38.

On a lower level, I've noticed a significant amount of my co-workers who are retired military have low level disabilities and chronic pain issues. I think the market, by and large, has determined a fair price. Somebody who can get into the Naval Academy can also get into Harvard/Yale. I think Butterbars get paid just a bit less than Ivy League Grads.
 
In my limited experience it seems that there are 3 main reasons people stay in the military:

1. For the retirement pay.
2. For the medical coverage.
3. The predictability.

You mess with any of the above 3 and many people will simply get out.

I would add a fourth, at least in my case. In spite of the hardships, there are some truly enjoyable things about a military career. I, for one, enjoyed working at the leading edge of some aerospace programs. True, I didn't do that beginning on day one, and reasons 1 and 2 probably kept me in until I was able to do fun things, but I wouldn't discount enjoyment as a reason many stay in. About your #3, .... not sure how predictability lines up with not knowing when you'll be having to pack up, take the kids out of school, and go off to who knows where and do who knows what.

But I do agree with you that retirement is the #1 thing. Take that away, and hello mercenary military a la French Foreign Legion.
 
I for one would be very cautious about messing around with the retirement benefits of those people who bear the burden of protecting our freedoms. For those of us who have done 20 as some of the 1% who keep the other 99% free reducing the retirement of those who defend this country is very offensive to me.
For who have not served because " it just wasn't your thing'" some solider, sailor, or airman has had to endure many many hardships in the name of Duty. Instead of trying to diminish what they are entitled to in retirement at 38 or at 60 or anywhere in between you should work on increasing the benefit package to retain the best in defense of freedom.
If you're not willing to pay for it in $$$$ or by serving in the military then start to learn the Koran as your days of freedom are numbered and you'll only have yourself to blame.
This country has battled Islamic fanaticism for the last 200 years (Barbary Pirates) and we will continue to be able to do so only as long as our military is supported and respected by the citizens.
Trying to save a few billion in the defense budget while congress puts billions in pork (earmarks) every year into the annual budget is disgusting. Of course the members of the military do not make up a sizable voting block and can be ignored.

DOGS and SOLDERS KEEP OFF THE GRASS
except in time of war

Is the typical attitude of most people who live here.
 
The post above, IMO, is why meaningful discussions on reforming a benefit we can't afford will never occur. Anyone who mentions it will immediately be branded as someone who doesn't appreciate the sacrifices our soldiers make for us day after day, and anyone who "supports the troops" couldn't possibly consider such a thing. As you can see above, it's considered a lack of "respect" to even discuss it.

With that card being played on anyone who thinks collecting a pension at 38 is ridiculous in the general case, the discussion is a non-starter. It's a third-rail issue just as Social Security is to the AARP crowd. It's a card for which virtually no counter is available.

I for one do not want to water down the *overall* pay and benefits packages our soldiers get. If anything, I'd increase them a little. But defined benefit pensions are killing us economically, and I'd much prefer to see more pay up front, and perhaps greater employer contributions into TSP or some such. And a generous pension starting at an age that's younger than most is still out there in any event. (I'd prefer 50, not 57.)

Yet even the slightest hint of discussing how to tweak pay and benefits to match the current realities of unfunded entitlements and how they are a time bomb waiting to go off is met as if it's peeing on the grave of every patriot who ever gave his/her life for their country. It's no wonder why almost no one is willing to talk about it, especially in the post-9/11 world. It's just like people advocating Social Security reform are accused of wanting to throw Grandma out in the streets. Any talk of reform is immediately met with the accusation that you're against a group that no reasonable, well-meaning people can be against.

Federal pension entitlements are killing us along with unfunded Social Security and Medicare promises.

Earmarks are a separate issue -- you don't have to ignore one source of overall spending to be concerned about another. With a $400 billion deficit, there are a lot of things we need to be looking at. I don't think this issue is a particularly large priority in the grand scheme, but I think some tweaks are needed to look at current economic realities.

[Edit to add: And for what it's worth, NO one who's already in should have the deal changed on them. Period.]
 
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Is the typical attitude of most people who live here.
Speaking of "very offensive"...

I believe everyone here has said that we're absolutely not for changing the rules on those who are in - period. But to say nothing can be changed ever ignores the reality that all of us are facing. I do respect your service whether it's been in combat or not, but I'd have to agree with ziggy's sentiments by and large.
 
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With that card being played on anyone who thinks collecting a pension at 38 is ridiculous in the general case, the discussion is a non-starter. It's a third-rail issue just as Social Security is to the AARP crowd. It's a card for which virtually no counter is available.
Oooohkay... how 'bout firefighters and police officers?

Yo, Leonidas, you still out there to provide your perspective on this discussion?
 
I spent 20 years in the AF. I flew the entire 20 years. The first 10 were exciting, challenging, interesting and down right fun. I would have stayed at lower pay, and could have cared less about the pension. From 10 to 20 the time away from family, missed birthdays, being shot at, and BS or some commanders wore very thin, but there was light at the end of the tunnel.

My guess is if you radically change the retirement system, the AF will have an extremal difficult time keeping pilots. Let's see: Air Lines -work 80 hr a month, get paid twice to three times more, no additional duties, no command bs, sleep in a hotel when away from home or Air Force - work 168 hours a week, when not flying you are range officer, safety officer, mobile officer, supervisor of flying, supply officer, moral officer, sleep in a tent when away from home, and your wings are held on with Velcro to make them easier to take away.
 
While I served I trained with the goal of retiring at 20 years service. My thought was since the job was so dangerous if you had anything left after 20 years you probably did not train hard enough. The job fits the physically demanding portion of the FERS retirement systems description of a law enforcement/fire fighter retirement, perfectly. Any changes to the military retirement should not make it worse than the FERS law enforcement/fire fighter retirement. 25 and out or 20 years at 57 years old. Any modification that lessens the military retirement to worse than the law enforcement/fire fighter retirement is a slap in the face of every military member.

On a personal note they got rid of REDUX as a bad idea. This retirement proposal is worse than that so I seriously doubt it will be implemented.
 
I don't see anyone saying a pension shouldn't be waiting for someone after 20 years of service here. I just think collecting on it shouldn't start until at least age 50-55...like the rest of us, at least the fortunate few who still *have* pensions.

Obviously if you became disabled in service or some such, it's another matter.

Any modification that lessens the military retirement to worse than the law enforcement/fire fighter retirement is a slap in the face of every military member.
Is it possible to have a reasonable discussion about this without the emotional rhetoric as if people are looking to pee on the grave of every dead soldier, cop or firefighter who died in the line of duty? This is exactly why some issues can NOT be solved in this country.

The bottom line is that defined benefit pension plans are bankrupting companies and sending some cities to the brink. We just can't afford them like we used to any more -- especially not when someone is 37-38 and probably has 50 years left to collect it between them and their spouse.
 
Is it possible to have a reasonable discussion about this without the emotional rhetoric as if people are looking to pee on the grave of every dead soldier, cop or firefighter who died in the line of duty? This is exactly why some issues can NOT be solved in this country.
Apparently not, but that hasn't stopped any of the other threads on this board.

Your appeal for reasonability should acknowledge that there are career fields which may seem interesting, even exciting-- yet carry a high degree of risk or, shall we say, "perishable" skills. I think even a steely-eyed green-eyeshade-wearing accountant would have to acknowledge the risk to one's human capital (and lifetime earnings, and medical expenses) when a career could be cut short for various reasons. It's just actuarial-- no urination required.

The bottom line is that defined benefit pension plans are bankrupting companies and sending some cities to the brink. We just can't afford them like we used to any more -- especially not when someone is 37-38 and probably has 50 years left to collect it between them and their spouse.
So it's the pension plans driving the companies into bankruptcy? Or is it management making unaffordable promises and then [-]retiring or pulling golden ripcords[/-] vacating the premises 20-40 years before their bad bargains are realized? Maybe those companies & govts could afford them all along but chose not to. Executive salaries, benefits, & pensions somehow seem to be affordable.

I think it's also appropriate to include recent changes to accounting rules requiring govts & corporations to attempt to assess their pension/healthcare obligations and include them on the balance sheet. No one had to acknowledge these problems even five years ago. If this requirement had existed 25 years ago then the steel & auto industries might have dealt with their problems a lot sooner.

The "affordability" of the military pension system pales to insignificance compared to the projected burden of Medicare, but I don't hear any clarion calls for its overhaul. People are living longer anyway, so why should we give them all this affordable healthcare when they're only in their 60s? If this emotional rhetoric is starting to seem unreasonable then you're beginning to appreciate how veterans feel whenever a committee tells Congress that veterans are overpaid.

Here's another thought to consider. The typical AEGIS cruiser or destroyer being commissioned today will last for over 30 years and require several billions of upkeep & payroll. Yet during those 30 years it may never fire a shot in anger and will probably never destroy several billion$ of other lives or property. Its sunk costs (or its potential value) was not achieved by an equivalent value in goods & services. By that standard it's a waste of money.

Security insurance ain't cheap, but the alternatives are even less acceptable. REDUX gave the 1980s/1990s military a little taste of what happens to retention when governments make the retirement system more "affordable" and veterans started voting with their feet. Pensions are cheap compared to the cost of finding new [-]suckers[/-] recruits, training them, and replacing the lost experience. Even paying out higher salaries & bonuses is a lot cheaper than recruiting, and the Navy learned this with a vengeance in the late 1990s. It's no coincidence that the admiral in charge of the Navy's personnel system in the late '90s is now leading a coalition of veteran's organizations.

It doesn't matter what you think is affordable or even "right". It's how much people are willing to sacrifice their lifestyles and maybe even their lives for. Sure, veterans are also compensated with excitement & adventure, but that doesn't make up for the lost income and the lost time.

There's a reason that such a tiny fraction of the veterans stick around for a pension in their late 30s/early 40s-- only 10-15% according to that study linked here recently. Maybe those defined-benefit pensions are more affordable than you're willing to accept for the services & benefits you're receiving. But if you can find a better system then feel free to [-]vote for[/-] pay for it...
 
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There's a reason that such a tiny fraction of the veterans stick around for a pension in their late 30s/early 40s-- only 10-15% according to that study linked here recently. Maybe those defined-benefit pensions are more affordable than you're willing to accept for the services & benefits you're receiving. But if you can find a better system then feel free to [-]vote for[/-] pay for it...
Actually, I can be convinced that the current situation could be in the best interest of national security and an overall stronger military (and even cheaper, perhaps, depending on turnover rates and training costs). I just grow tired of the demagoguery that automatically assumes someone doesn't appreciate the sacrifices of soldiers/cops/firemen if the think we need to look at changing the status quo.
 
I for one would be very cautious about messing around with the retirement benefits of those people who bear the burden of protecting our freedoms. For those of us who have done 20 as some of the 1% who keep the other 99% free reducing the retirement of those who defend this country is very offensive to me..

Oh, relax.

As Nords has already pointed out, the changes "would apply only to new enlistees/officers, not those in the current active-duty or reserve system. It wouldn't apply to gray-area or retirees either".

As far as new people go, there are pluses and minuses to every career, and everyone is free to make up their own minds. I doubt that many service members are motivated primarily by money (I certainly wasn't).

If there turn out to be serious recruitment or retention problems, people will vote with their feet and the pension changes will be adjusted or reversed until the problem is fixed. That's the way economics work (Adam Smith's hidden hand, remember?).
 
Obviously if you became disabled in service or some such, it's another matter.

Is it possible to have a reasonable discussion about this without the emotional rhetoric as if people are looking to pee on the grave of every dead soldier, cop or firefighter who died in the line of duty? This is exactly why some issues can NOT be solved in this country.

You don't have to be disabled to be worn out. Accidents happen during hard training, it is unavoidable. Injuries sustained because of those accidents do not necessarily require the person to be discharged and given a retirement pension or disability, however they do accumulate and take their toll on a person.

The most important provision for the law enforcement and fire fighter retirement is the necessity to maintain good physical fitness. Many agencies do not enforce fitness standards after the initial training. Some do, but not all. The military almost to the last person does. So making the retirement for military worse than that provided to federal law enforcement and fire fighters does not make any sense. Not to mention the personal restrictions imposed on military members when compared to federal law enforcement and fire fighters is substantially greater. By giving the military members a worse retirement, the federal government is essentially saying we don't value your service as much as these other federal employees. This can be observed by the lower pay and worse working conditions seen in the military as compared to the federal civil service and in a very poor military retirement (referring to the one proposed) for people required to maintain higher physical standards. A little hint just about every federal law enforcement position covered by law enforcement retirement starts at least at GS-5 and goes to GS-11 without competition and the supervisors are paid quite a bit more than that.
 
Oooohkay... how 'bout firefighters and police officers?

Yo, Leonidas, you still out there to provide your perspective on this discussion?

I chose my profession, in part, based on the fact that I could retire a lot younger than 62 or whatever. Where I went to work was based more on salary and other considerations, but within the first decade of work, whenever I started thinking of jumping ship, the specifics of the pension kept me where I was.

One of my career assignments was in our recruiting division, and I know how many people line up wanting jobs in police work who are not the kind of folks you want to give guns and badges to. The pool of good applicants is small, and there is a lot of expense in finding, hiring and training them. Once you have them on board and trained, you want to keep them because by the time they are experienced in the job and doing it well, you have invested a lot of taxpayer dollars in them.

I went as far in my career as the ten-year mark frequently checking out other employers and other careers, but eventually the pension hooked me and I stayed put for my most productive years.

My former employer made a decision to change the pension system - which forced a lot of people to vote with their feet. Within a year he was faced with a lot of unhappy taxpayers who were tired of the crime rate and the daily headlines saying "Three murders this weekend!" He tried to go on a hiring binge.

What he discovered was what we already knew. The pension, and eventually salary increases, had been keeping people at work who were going to be very difficult to replace. Not replace as in finding experienced folks, but just warm bodies to fill holes and start gaining experience. There's a war on and the demographics have changed in the last 20 years - there are fewer young people who want demanding, stressful and dangerous jobs who are qualified (or even just acceptable) to do them. Add to that the fact that the a lot of federal agencies went on hiring binges as well. The demand outstrips the supply.

So my former employer held the line on pensions, but he was forced to give further salary increases to incumbents, pay millions in overtime trying to cover for all the vacancies caused by retirement, raise the entry-level salaries, pay $12,000 signing bonuses, pay $2,000 referral bonuses, and spend millions for a huge recruiting drive. And they still can't get half as many people as they want - which was a third of the people they need.

As I recall from what my Econ professor taught, when there are fewer people willing to supply a good or service, and demand remains constant or increases, the place where the supply curve meets the demand curve goes way up along the axis labeled "Cost".

One of our chiefs once made this comment: "Boys, let's don't forget that the oil that the Big Blue Machine runs on is colored green." You can't escape the fact that providing protective services costs - and, at least in police work, the single greatest cost is personnel (96-97% of total budget). Whenever you start looking to whack the budget there are only so many cars, helicopters, computers, etc. that can be cut before everybody starts walking or you start cutting personnel. Given the current situation you are very quickly faced with a situation in which either you lower your standards and start hiring people you know are going to create problems, or you try to do it with fewer folks. Or you face up the the reality that the service provided is important, in fact vital, and the bill has to be paid.

No demagogy, no wizzing on graves, just simple economics.
 
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this would be disastrous to the volunteer military. Comparisons with Megacorp, other federal government workers etc. is specious in my book. The realities and hardships of military life are vastly different and cannot be overstated.

If this awful idea goes through, then it should apply only to the officer corps. Enlisted retirement should not change one iota.

Officers make salaries that are far more comparable to the private sector. They also make enough so they are able to save substantial amounts during their careers if they so desire. It is also easier for them to max out TSP.

An E7 at 20 years, on the other hand, is not even making 4K per month. Her pension will bring about 28K per year. She'll get TSP if she contributed, sure, but she will likely never be in a position to max her contributions, particularly if she has a family. And I really doubt she will be able to set aside any significant portion of her take-home pay for retirement. Certainly no where to the degree of an officer.

I really can't believe anyone would support this, especially the enlisted ranks. You guys are getting a royal screwing and you need to fight it. God bless, and good luck.
 
Ziggy,

You've made it very clear over the years, that you think that defined benefit pensions are going to end life as we know it. We all know they are expensive, but you clearly have never served in the miltary or law enforcement, otherwise you would realize how wrong your arguments are.

Im not going to ramble on about all the reasons why you should change your mind because you clearly never will. I'll just say 2 things.

1) Military and law enforecment pensions dont cost nearly what you think they do because ex-military and ex-law enforcement officers life spans are quite a bit shorter than the avg person. You should do some research into that.

2) Since you have never served in the mitiary or law enforcement (Ive done both as well as some normal civilian jobs), you have no earthly idea how much sacrifice is required, how much stress is involved and how it permanently affects a person for the rest of his / her life. People are not going to do these jobs for the amount of money they are paid unless there is a bright light at the end of the tunnel and the light is within reach.

When you talk about miltary and law enforcement pensions the way you do, you remind me of an insurance company denying claims based soley on monetary reasons with total lack of disregard for the human factor involved.
 
Ziggy,

You've made it very clear over the years, that you think that defined benefit pensions are going to end life as we know it.
You've made it clear that you don't realize a post is a year and a half old before you respond to it. And I never said they will "end life" -- just that they need to be reconsidered, recalibrated and/or better targeted for new hires.
 
Youve made many more "anti pension" posts in the past few months besides the ones in this thread.
 
Youve made many more "anti pension" posts in the past few months besides the ones in this thread.
I am most definitely not "anti pension" if benefits are set at sane and sustainable levels. I have often praised the FERS model (which includes a DB pension component) as one that is sustainable, sane and which best captures the "three legged stool" concept of retirement. Which, if you'd look to respond to something less than 18 months old, you would know.

I am anti-"maintaining the status quo" for future new hires in particularly generous plans. I am in favor of re-evaluating public pension systems and determining where they do and do not make sense (i.e. they may make sense for military and cops but not for clerical workers), and to set benefit levels based on realistic future expectations of ROI and increasing life expectancy. I have been consistent about not wanting to change the current deal awaiting anyone already in the plan. So my position is no threat to you.

Reading any beyond that into it requires a hyperactive imagination.
 
City clerical workers are not part of the same pension that police officers are in any city Ive ever heard of, so Im not sure where that came from.

I realize that you are only advocating changing benefits for new hires, but your point of view about pensions for military and law enforcement is clouded by the fact that you have never been in the military or law enforcement and because of that you cant fathom the fact that it cant be compared to a standard civilian job. Its not just a job. These people are risking their lives for you. Alot of them are dying for you. They are putting their families second. Alot of them are scarred physically and / or emotionally for life. They deserve a pension that you dont consider to be sane because what they are asked to do is not sane. Until youve done the job and faced the challenges, you will never understand.
 
City clerical workers are not part of the same pension that police officers are in any city Ive ever heard of, so Im not sure where that came from.

I realize that you are only advocating changing benefits for new hires, but your point of view about pensions for military and law enforcement is clouded by the fact that you have never been in the military or law enforcement and because of that you cant fathom the fact that it cant be compared to a standard civilian job.

Need I re-quote what I just wrote?

I am in favor of re-evaluating public pension systems and determining where they do and do not make sense (i.e. they may make sense for military and cops but not for clerical workers)

Two things here -- one, I mention pension SYSTEMS. Plural. Not just one. I know darn well that there are different systems despite your claim that I said they were in the same pension plan. Each needs to be evaluated to see whether they are really necessary as a retention tool.

Second, I acknowledge that there may well be reason to not significantly change things for SOME occupations, and I specifically mention military and law enforcement as likely places where that may be the case. In fact, the reason it CAN'T be compared to any comparable private sector job is one of the main reasons I say that. (I'm pretty sure I've said that before, less than 18 months ago.)

Despite what I just wrote -- not 18 months ago, but today -- you are still making arguments that don't need to be made based on what I said. You're arguing against positions I haven't explicitly taken (other than my belief that collecting a pension at age 38 is absurd -- unless you were disabled in the line of duty, obviously).

As for my thinking being "clouded," maybe so. I also think some people who never worked in the private sector have their positions "clouded" by the fact that many never faced the insecurities of working in the private sector. If they never feared layoffs or losing their health insurance or retirement, I could just as easily say they can't relate to what the private sector worker deals with. Maybe I can't relate to the life of a soldier or a cop, but many in the public sector can't relate the panic of those in the private sector worrying about layoffs, pay/hour cuts and a terrible market threatening their ability to retire at all. It goes both ways.

Adversarially pointing fingers in either direction does no good. But I do think things need to be reviewed in light of all the state and local budget crises exacerbated by out-of-control increases in pension funding liabilities. The taxpayers may appreciate the services they receive, but in the *general* case that only goes so far, especially in times like these when people are asked to take a tax hike to shore up other people's retirements when their own 401K-based retirement is circling the drain.
 
But I do think things need to be reviewed in light of all the state and local budget crises exacerbated by out-of-control increases in pension funding liabilities. The taxpayers may appreciate the services they receive, but in the *general* case that only goes so far, especially in times like these when people are asked to take a tax hike to shore up other people's retirements when their own 401K-based retirement is circling the drain.
Review away. The veterans, police, and firefighters know how to vote with their feet. The situation will work itself out one way or the other, albeit in a more painful fashion than necessary.

I think comparing "fear of layoff" to "fear of being burned" or "fear of being shot" is, not to put too fine a point on it, a bad foundation for a credible argument.
 
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