Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-13-2007, 05:33 PM   #41
Administrator
Gumby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by armor99 View Post
I live my whole life under the concept of "if I fail... there is NO net to catch me". Sometimes I think that if everyone lived their lives that way we would all tend to make better choices...
Me too Armor, but I suspect that we, and others on this board, are the exceptions.

One trap that many successful people fall into (myself included) is the belief that we enjoy a successful and happy life entirely as a consequence of our own merit. We are intelligent, have worked hard and made wise decisions. Therefore, we are richly deserving of all we have.

However comforting this thought is, it does not bear up to close scrutiny. The fact that I live healthy, happy and comfortable today is due to the intelligence, work and sacrifice of thousands of men and women (both known and unknown) who have gone before me.

For example, nearly 231 years ago, a ragtag band of mostly teenagers, led by a Virginia planter named Washington, huddled in the forests of Bucks County, Pennsylvania. They were the remnants of a defeated and fleeing Continental Army. Thousands of their comrades had given up hope and gone home. Yet they persevered. Drawing on their very last reserves of hope and strength, they crossed the Delaware River and attacked the Hessians in Trenton, thereby keeping the American Revolution alive and ensuring that I would one day be able to live in the freest and best country in the world. 168 years later, men braver than I have ever been or will ever be stormed the beaches of Normandy to defend that freedom against Hitler's evil. Their sacrifice made our world possible.

Similarly, I did not die of a childhood disease because men and women far more intelligent than me devoted their lives to finding vaccines against and cures for those diseases. Others, all of whom were more talented and hard working than me, discovered electricity, invented refrigeration, the automobile, the airplane, the computer and the internet. All the wonders of modern technology that enable me to work, travel and play were developed by someone else.

Incredibly clever Renaissance Italian bankers developed methods of banking that benefit me to this day. As a direct result of their efforts, I can write a check, use credit, and deposit money in one place and take it out in another. The concept of the mutual fund, which has benefitted me greatly, was developed by yet another genius.

In short, most of what I have today was made possible by the efforts of people who were smarter, harder working, more dedicated, and braver than me. My own contribution pales by comparison

In the Bible, one of Jesus' parables concerns certain workers in a vineyard (even if you are not Christian, please bear with me -- this is not about religion at all). It goes like this (Matthew 20:1-16):

For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right." So they went. He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.

He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'


When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.' The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

This parable is most often used to show that God loves us all equally, the church ladies who attend every Sunday no more and no less than the tattooed motorcycle guy riding by outside.

But the most interesting thing about the parable is this -- when most people first hear or read it (including me), they are outraged by the landowner's conduct. That is because everyone sees themselves as the early morning workers, who have worked hard all day. No one identifies himself or herself with one of those eleventh hour people, who got the same treatment for so much less work.

Similarly, when people read that libertarian stalwart, Atlas Shrugged, they always identify with John Galt and the "individuals of the mind". They are never one of the "looters and moochers".

I respectfully suggest that none of us was born into a state of nature such that we can claim credit for everything we have today. Each of us stands on the shoulders of countless others who have gone before, and each of us is dependent, whether we admit it or not, on the efforts of many, many others who live among us today. As John Donne once wrote

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece
of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by
the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's
death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and
therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for
thee.


This, then, is the pernicious heart of libertarianism -- the belief that all we have and all we are can be attributed to our own intelligence and our own efforts. Such thinking at best leads us an inflated sense of self that devalues the lives and contributions of others. In its most virulent form, it can also make us heartless and cold.

Personally, I hope for better.
__________________

__________________
Living an analog life in the Digital Age.
Gumby is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-13-2007, 06:03 PM   #42
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,255
I've got to run, just wanted to chime in and say it is good to see this thread coming together from the divisive turn it was taking.

Often, people's beliefs really are not as different as they might first appear. Once they engage, they learn they have more in common than they thought.

Very interesting dynamics at work, IMO.


-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 11:33 PM   #43
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,251
Gumby....

Very good posts... and much better than what I was writing, but the point I was trying to make...

But I think almost all of us are in agreement that there should not be government money to bail out the homeowners... yes, they bailed out the depositors during the S&L crisis, but the 'owners' lost everything... and there were MANY people who lost their homes, and homes took a beating, but they came back in time...

And would it not help out the economy more in the long run if there were a lot of people who lost their homes and made more houses 'affordable' to the people who can really afford them??
__________________
Texas Proud is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 06:08 AM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Gumby....

Very good posts... and much better than what I was writing, but the point I was trying to make...

But I think almost all of us are in agreement that there should not be government money to bail out the homeowners... yes, they bailed out the depositors during the S&L crisis, but the 'owners' lost everything... and there were MANY people who lost their homes, and homes took a beating, but they came back in time...
Ditto the good post Gumby. And I agree with Texas that homeowners should not be bailed out - certainly not in the sense of some taxpayer handout. But I am still POd that we same taxpayers may have to bail out the people who dreamed up NINJA loans and the like to protect the overall economy. Regulating these industries to a degree to prevent them from F'ing things up for the rest of us and costing us taxpayer money is no different than regulating planes or requiring FDIC insurance (was that your earlier post Texas?).
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 08:09 AM   #45
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Gumby-- That was a good post. I would have to somewhat disagree. You are correct in that people before us have done things that make our success possible. I feel however that those accomplishments make it possible for all of society to be successful not the person specifically. It is our own knowledge, skills, abilities, and desires that make us successful. As far as I know there are no laws/regulations/policies that restrict one person form using the system you pointed out in America. While I am grateful that I was born in America where the benefits you describe are readily available, especially when compared to some other countries. I think to say we are not the products of our own desires and abilities is a little short of reality.

I've seen crack addicts realize the road they were on was going nowhere fast and kick the habit. These same people go on to become successful leaders in the community. I've also seen other crack addicts stay the course and are dead within a few years from their drug use. Each of these groups have the same access to the system you describe, yet one failed while the other succeeded. The only difference was the people not the system.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 09:54 AM   #46
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 595
I swear by my life and my love of it
that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for mine. - John Galt "Atlas Shrugged"

You perception of me is quite right. I am in fact reading Atas Shrugged right now. Although I refuse to be labeled as "libertarian" or "conservative" or anything else for that matter. I think the above quote is really what is at the heart of it. We should help each other if we choose to, if we want to. I do not believe in government forced charity or income re-distribution. Charity under threat of force is called extortion. And while I do agree with you that there are millions of people that have lived, or invented things that make my life easier, it is only I that can make use of those tools. Such is the power of the individual mind. There is no such thing as a group mind, or group decisions. There is only the power of a single man with a single mind, that can decide what direction his life will take. I do not believe in fate, or destiny, or the claim that "everything will turn out all right in the end" without me doing anything to ensure it happens. And all of this brings me back to the original topic here of govt bailouts etc. If you believe like I do, that your life belongs to you and to no one else, then by default you also believe that the negative things that happen to you in life (such as inability to pay mortgages) was in large part caused by yourself, and some bad decisions that you made. If you believe that your life does not belong just to you, but that lives are collectively owned (sometimes called a "social contract") by others, then you surrender part of what happens to you over to those other people. While I can respect that point of view, it is not the sort of life that I wish to live.
Ok... sorry if this posting thread has gotten a bit off track and a bit too much into philosophy. although some would argue that your philosphy guides all of your decisions, like wanting to retire early! Thanks again to all who were kind enough to share their views. Kudos to all... and malice towards none...
__________________
armor99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 10:02 AM   #47
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by armor99 View Post
I swear by my life and my love of it
that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for mine. - John Galt "Atlas Shrugged"

You perception of me is quite right. I am in fact reading Atas Shrugged right now. Although I refuse to be labeled as "libertarian" or "conservative" or anything else for that matter. I think the above quote is really what is at the heart of it. We should help each other if we choose to, if we want to. I do not believe in government forced charity or income re-distribution. Charity under threat of force is called extortion. And while I do agree with you that there are millions of people that have lived, or invented things that make my life easier, it is only I that can make use of those tools. Such is the power of the individual mind. There is no such thing as a group mind, or group decisions. There is only the power of a single man with a single mind, that can decide what direction his life will take. I do not believe in fate, or destiny, or the claim that "everything will turn out all right in the end" without me doing anything to ensure it happens. And all of this brings me back to the original topic here of govt bailouts etc. If you believe like I do, that your life belongs to you and to no one else, then by default you also believe that the negative things that happen to you in life (such as inability to pay mortgages) was in large part caused by yourself, and some bad decisions that you made. If you believe that your life does not belong just to you, but that lives are collectively owned (sometimes called a "social contract") by others, then you surrender part of what happens to you over to those other people. While I can respect that point of view, it is not the sort of life that I wish to live.
Ok... sorry if this posting thread has gotten a bit off track and a bit too much into philosophy. although some would argue that your philosphy guides all of your decisions, like wanting to retire early! Thanks again to all who were kind enough to share their views. Kudos to all... and malice towards none...
Seems to me that there is not a whole lot of room for compassion for one's fellow man in such a world. You are welcome to live there on your own.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 10:17 AM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Seems to me that there is not a whole lot of room for compassion for one's fellow man in such a world. You are welcome to live there on your own.
Brewer, I don't think you are completely thinking this through.

On the surface, yes, it sounds like 'who cares about the other guy'. But what is being said is: 'letting people learn from their mistakes IS the kindest approach (over the long run)'.

Go back and read some of the earlier posts. Plenty of examples were given where well-intentioned protection just enables people to go on and do some real damage. To my thinking, over-protection IS the LEAST compassionate approach.

You are free to disagree of course, but it would be interesting to see you back up your thoughts with some real life examples.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 10:21 AM   #49
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Brewer, I don't think you are completely thinking this through.

On the surface, yes, it sounds like 'who cares about the other guy'. But what is being said is: 'letting people learn from their mistakes IS the kindest approach (over the long run)'.

Go back and read some of the earlier posts. Plenty of examples were given where well-intentioned protection just enables people to go on and do some real damage. To my thinking, over-protection IS the LEAST compassionate approach.

You are free to disagree of course, but it would be interesting to see you back up your thoughts with some real life examples.

-ERD50
There is no point in wasting effort trying to convince you guys. You've already decided what you think and will not be budged, so good luck to you. Fortunately, society does not see it that way and we have at least some measure of support for those who don't quite make it in life.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 11:14 AM   #50
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
There is no point in wasting effort trying to convince you guys.
Honestly brewer, it does not appear to me that you have expended ANY effort trying to convince us. I looked back at your posts, and they boil down to 'you (anti-bail-out) guys are wrong, and heartless'. That may be your belief, but it takes more than a statement of one's belief to convince someone else.

Quote:
You've already decided what you think and will not be budged, so good luck to you.
From this side of the road, that is how you appear to me. You have not even offered up an explanation of why your world is better, or refuted our explanations.

Quote:
Fortunately, society does not see it that way and we have at least some measure of support for those who don't quite make it in life.
Well maybe there is a simpler answer here. Maybe you just have not been reading the posts. There were quite a few references that people who cannot support themselves should recieve some form of social services. But many of us do not agree that someone that made a bad financial decision should be bailed out.

'I am right and you are wrong' really does not advance the discussion, as far as I can tell.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 11:23 AM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,251
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
There is no point in wasting effort trying to convince you guys. You've already decided what you think and will not be budged, so good luck to you. Fortunately, society does not see it that way and we have at least some measure of support for those who don't quite make it in life.
Brewer... he is why I do not believe in a bailout...

How long will WE be on the hook? Most of the people can not afford the house they bought. It is not like they lost a job and will be back on their own feet when they get a new one... most of these people will be under water the whole time of the loan... I don't think I should be helping out people who make a 'lot' of money and are living in a house that cost more than mine... and I am sure that they still have cable and cell phones and are eating out etc etc... lots of money going out for non-necessary things..

Now, if someone CAN make the payments, and it is just a matter of loaning them the money at 'market' rate, then fine... but to me that is not a bail out..
__________________
Texas Proud is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 11:23 AM   #52
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
I can't be bothered to debate since you guys are all alike. Seen it before, banged my head against that wall enough times, had enough. Gummint regulation and some kind of safety net are unassailable positives and necessary retraints on the unfortunate brutalities of a free market economy. All the re-readings of Ayn Rand's diarrhea of the pen will not change that or my opinion, and any arguments I make on the subject won't change yours. So enjoy your dog-eared copy of "Atlas Wanked" and let the rest of us get on with the real world.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 11:28 AM   #53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Brewer... he is why I do not believe in a bailout...

How long will WE be on the hook? Most of the people can not afford the house they bought. It is not like they lost a job and will be back on their own feet when they get a new one... most of these people will be under water the whole time of the loan... I don't think I should be helping out people who make a 'lot' of money and are living in a house that cost more than mine... and I am sure that they still have cable and cell phones and are eating out etc etc... lots of money going out for non-necessary things..

Now, if someone CAN make the payments, and it is just a matter of loaning them the money at 'market' rate, then fine... but to me that is not a bail out..
FWIW, I think a carte blanche bail-out of mortgage borrowers woudl be costly and futile. nstead, I think we will see a multi-pronged approach consisting of some combination of the following:

- Loan modifications that reduce the interest rate or otherwise make the payment burden reasonable for borrowers who are basically creditworthy and willing to keep up the loan.
- Foreclosures and sale of properties where there is no room for "fixing" a bad loan.
- An extension of the FHA program for borrowers who have been blown out of the market by the implosion of subprime lenders.
- Fed rate decreases that make mortgages cheaper.

It won't be pretty and there will be lots more renters than there used to be. I think there is no real way to bail everyone out (and it would be unwise even if possible), but softening the blow is in everyone's interest.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 11:29 AM   #54
Moderator
Sarah in SC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 13,456
Hey, I love my dog eared copy of Atlas Shrugged!

It boils down to this, help the ones who are trying to help themselves and let the sharks eat the others. Now, who gets to figure out which are which? Welcome to the welfare system! I wish I knew.

There is no good solution, unfortunately, but those thoughtful folks among us will still have these conversations, and that is a good thing, even if it doesn't result in a quorum. Thanks for this interesting discourse, fellows!
Sarah
__________________
“One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching.”
Gerard Arthur Way

Sarah in SC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 11:56 AM   #55
Recycles dryer sheets
Eyerishgold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 222
Although I haven't contributed much to this particular thread, I've enjoyed the spirited debate immensely. That being said, I always cringe when a debate of ideas turns personal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
I can't be bothered to debate since you guys are all alike. Seen it before, banged my head against that wall enough times, had enough. Gummint regulation and some kind of safety net are unassailable positives and necessary retraints on the unfortunate brutalities of a free market economy. All the re-readings of Ayn Rand's diarrhea of the pen will not change that or my opinion, and any arguments I make on the subject won't change yours. So enjoy your dog-eared copy of "Atlas Wanked" and let the rest of us get on with the real world.
From what I've read on this site, we are, for the most part, intelligent people. Intelligent people tend to have well formed beliefs that they will defend if challenged. I like to think that people can disagree here without the personal attacks.

I try, although sometimes unsuccessfully, to not dismiss an idea or a viewpoint as rubbish right of the bat. Certainly, there are people smarter than I am who post on this site and I'd like to think I can learn a thing or two here which is why I joined in the first place. Whether it's learning something new about an investing strategy or learning something new about different belief systems, I'm constantly learning.

Brewer, I'd like to think that you're not wasting your time by posting the ideas you believe so strongly in, just as I hope I'm not wasting my time and energy. I'd also like to think that you might be able to learn something from somebody with a different view of the world and not think that what you believe is the end all. I enjoy when my ideas are challenged because I get to know a little more about myself and I get to reassess my beliefs and ideas and ask myself "am I right to think this way?" Most of the time I am right!

Anyways, keep up the debates.
__________________
Eyerishgold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 12:08 PM   #56
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyerishgold View Post
Most of the time I am right!
And most of the time, I think it amounts to mental masturbation. But that's OK: better here than in an airport bathroom with a stranger.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 01:21 PM   #57
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
FWIW, I think a carte blanche bail-out of mortgage borrowers woudl be costly and futile. nstead, I think we will see a multi-pronged approach consisting of some combination of the following:

- Loan modifications that reduce the interest rate or otherwise make the payment burden reasonable for borrowers who are basically creditworthy and willing to keep up the loan.
Who's going to pay for that?

The lender expected to get paid a certain interest rate, theoretically to compensate for the risk taken in making the loan. Now that the risk has appeared, the lender gets to collect on the security taken, i.e. the real estate. That the underwriting was improper and the security isn't worth what was lent is the lender's problem.

Meanwhile, what makes you believe that the "basically creditworthy" borrower deserves a break on the rate? They made a deal, it turned out to be a bad deal, and now they can't afford it (and in some cases, could never have afforded it). They signed up for a teaser and then a reset to LIBOR + 4, they got a house to live in at a bargain price for perhaps years as a result, and they should be rewarded by taxpayers throwing more money at them? They pay less than market for their housing for years, the chickens finally come home to roost, and now it's everyone else's problem?

__________________
I'd rather be sailing.
nfs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 01:25 PM   #58
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfs View Post
Who's going to pay for that?

The lender expected to get paid a certain interest rate, theoretically to compensate for the risk taken in making the loan. Now that the risk has appeared, the lender gets to collect on the security taken, i.e. the real estate. That the underwriting was improper and the security isn't worth what was lent is the lender's problem.

Meanwhile, what makes you believe that the "basically creditworthy" borrower deserves a break on the rate? They made a deal, it turned out to be a bad deal, and now they can't afford it (and in some cases, could never have afforded it). They signed up for a teaser and then a reset to LIBOR + 4, they got a house to live in at a bargain price for perhaps years as a result, and they should be rewarded by taxpayers throwing more money at them? They pay less than market for their housing for years, the chickens finally come home to roost, and now it's everyone else's problem?

In the case of loan modifications, its the lender who will take it in the @ss. They made what turned out to be a stupid loan and for some borrowers the cost of the modification is less than the loss from foreclosing and selling off the house. It is pragmatism on the part of the lender, and they won't even think about doing this if they believe t hat they would end up foreclosing later on anyway.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 01:35 PM   #59
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 178
Thanks for the clarification, brewer.

I agree that the lenders should take the hit from any sort of loan modification, not the public at large. They got sloppy (and, in the end, some people are going to jail because many took advantage of sloppy) and they will pay.

Of course, given how mortgages have been chopped into tranches, "they" is in many cases "we", so it will be interesting to see how it all works out.
__________________
I'd rather be sailing.
nfs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2007, 05:19 PM   #60
Full time employment: Posting here.
Lusitan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 620
This article from today about renters being priced out of affordable housing touches on my main problem with any sort of bail out:

Renters squeezed by lack of affordable housing - Real Estate - MSNBC.com

Some are concerned that a foolish/greedy home purchaser might have to give up real estate that he never could have afforded anyway were it not for risky loans he is now complaining about. But nobody talks about a "bail out" for the renters who have been getting gouged as the cost of real estate was driven to bubblicious levels, or who had to sit on the sidelines because they were responsible and did not want to get in over their heads.

I guess these poor renters should have just made irresponsible real estate purchases, gotten themselves in over their heads, and then they could recite the magic words "I'm going to lose my home!" and "American dream!" and expect the govt to ride to the rescue. As it stands, these renters don't have any home to lose, thanks in no small part to the very speculators and idiots who helped inflate the bubble and who are now crying foul.

Bottom line: the only difference between many of the people who can't afford the homes they own and others who don't own any home at all is that the owners were irresponsible while the renters were responsible. Why reward irresponsibility? Let the owners join the renters, let the bottom fall out of the still-bubblicious housing market, and maybe then housing will be back within the reach of the responsible working class family.
__________________

__________________
Lusitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mortgage


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Will Subprime Foreclosures Spread? Retire Soon FIRE and Money 69 08-21-2013 08:58 AM
Subprime Loans bongo2 Stock Picking and Market Strategy 0 07-10-2007 02:20 PM
Getting rich off sub-subprime foreclosures Olav23 FIRE and Money 4 04-29-2007 07:07 AM
Not permitted to deduct mortgage interest from taxes - mortgage v renting? claire FIRE and Money 12 01-06-2007 04:43 PM
subprime loans semtex FIRE and Money 7 12-08-2006 09:37 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:19 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.