Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-08-2009, 07:20 PM   #41
Moderator Emeritus
Khan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pine Island, Florida
Posts: 6,868
Send a message via AIM to Khan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
Good post Noords - very thought provoking.

In recent years DW and I have had some vacations in england without kids and I've taken her on long walks along the cliffs and into the countryside where I grew up and where my Dad and sister still live. I've shown her various spots where, as kids, we would simply lie back and look out over fields or the sea, chew on grass, make daisy chains, watch the sky larks etc and just "be". I hadn't realized quite how far we used to roam - up to 5 miles one way. In my last 3 years at High School I had a lot of stress, trying to study for very important exams at 16 and 18 to get into university during a long period of illness with my mother who very nearly died in child birth when I was 16 and then again nearly died from cancer 2 years later, each time spending many weeks in hospital in the spring semester. Being the eldest I had to look after the house and rest of the family.

I used to find downtime by walking the cliffs and just sitting there trying to clear my mind.

Some years later during some very stressful times while we had 2 young children and work and other things were very tough I would de-stress by climbing the hills just outside our home and sit down looking out over the Yorkshire moors and just clear my head.

Reading your post and the responses in this thread makes me realize that I have lost this ability and the last 10 years in particular have needed such meditative techniques.

I look forward now to 're-discovering' myself....
I recall when I was a child I spent summers on my grandparents' farm in Maine, and walked down to the cove (on a calm sunny day) and watch the tide come in over the granite boulders.

I have regained much of that ability to 'just be' since retirement.
__________________

__________________
"Knowin' no one nowhere's gonna miss us when we're gone..."
Khan is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-08-2009, 07:26 PM   #42
Moderator Emeritus
Khan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pine Island, Florida
Posts: 6,868
Send a message via AIM to Khan
Somewhat related:

Quote:
Digital Overload Is Frying Our Brains | Wired Science from Wired.com

The other important thing is to discuss interruption as an environmental question and collective social issue. In our country, stillness and reflection are not especially valued in the workplace. The image of success is the frenetic multitasker who doesn't have time and is constantly interrupted. By striving towards this model of inattention, we're doing ourselves a tremendous injustice.
__________________

__________________
"Knowin' no one nowhere's gonna miss us when we're gone..."
Khan is offline   Reply With Quote
for the love of the game
Old 02-08-2009, 08:59 PM   #43
Recycles dryer sheets
leftbucket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 79
for the love of the game

Nords, et al-

First of all, Nords, you're my idol. I hope to also retire at 41
and I've never regretted a day I spent surfing...

Your post was most thought provoking.

Anyway, this might sound like heresy on this board, but
what about work as a necessary and fulfilling part of being?

I've heard you say words to the effect that growing up, all
you wanted to be was a Navy submariner. Wouldn't you say
that achieving that goal was a helpful for your self-
actualization? Was all that time you spent doing a job you
were passionate about just a "fog"?

Thanks for your post,
LB
__________________
leftbucket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2009, 09:13 PM   #44
Moderator Emeritus
Khan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pine Island, Florida
Posts: 6,868
Send a message via AIM to Khan
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftbucket View Post
Nords, et al-

First of all, Nords, you're my idol. I hope to also retire at 41
and I've never regretted a day I spent surfing...

Your post was most thought provoking.

Anyway, this might sound like heresy on this board, but
what about work as a necessary and fulfilling part of being?

I've heard you say words to the effect that growing up, all
you wanted to be was a Navy submariner. Wouldn't you say
that achieving that goal was a helpful for your self-
actualization? Was all that time you spent doing a job you
were passionate about just a "fog"?

Thanks for your post,
LB
I only speak for myself: some things get old after 20, 30 years.
__________________
"Knowin' no one nowhere's gonna miss us when we're gone..."
Khan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2009, 09:30 PM   #45
Moderator
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eee Bah Gum
Posts: 21,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khan View Post
I only speak for myself: some things get old after 20, 30 years.
I have to say that I enjoyed my first 10 - 20 years work. Beyond that the ever increasing need to do more with less, pressures on profits, lay-offs, cut-backs, having to tell very capable people that they no longer have a place in the company, ever increasing business travel .... it all just wore me down so that I will be happy to leave it all behind soon with enough income/assets to enjoy life without the millstone of a job I need hanging around my neck.
__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Now it's adventure before dementia
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2009, 10:01 PM   #46
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 154
[ My challenge is to learn something for the joy of it, not the mastery of it. See my dilemma?


Have you mastered golf or fly fishing?
__________________
theloneranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 08:37 AM   #47
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
I have to say that I enjoyed my first 10 - 20 years work. Beyond that the ever increasing need to do more with less, pressures on profits, lay-offs, cut-backs, having to tell very capable people that they no longer have a place in the company, ever increasing business travel .... it all just wore me down so that I will be happy to leave it all behind soon with enough income/assets to enjoy life without the millstone of a job I need hanging around my neck.
Yep, these are the things that turn your "occupation" or "what you do" into "w*rk." Even if one truly enjoys performing the activity they were (presumably) hired to do, by the time you add in the usual dose of corporate BS (or bureaucratic BS for our military folks), the overall experience gets older and older with time.

I'm sick of living under the threat of layoffs, of being expected to do more with less after each downsizing (or offshoring of jobs), all that garbage that makes one feel, well, practically chained to their jobs and dependent on their employers. What a crappy feeling that is -- basically "abandon all hope ye who enter this place." Like Brewer, I pretty much knew by my mid-20s that the corporate world sucked. Since we managed to buy our first house (12 years ago in California), my overarching, remaining financial goal was to get the hell out of financial dependence on an employer.

Great thread.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 09:08 AM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 5,280
During my career-life in management, I always described the "burn outs" as having "one year of experience and 19 years of repetition." If you don't, or are not allowed to, "grow," then weariness is the natural result. I have noticed that those that go to work each day seeking something "new" never want to "retire." If you are unhappy with your present circumstances, then you owe it to yourself to seek change -- the longer you put it off the more difficult it becomes. (I don't need to point out that FIRE is one of the more attractive choices, do I?)
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 09:19 AM   #49
Full time employment: Posting here.
Lusitan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 620
Wonderful, thought-provoking post, for a guy sitting at his desk in the midst of a Monday morning "fog of work" - thanks Nords!
__________________
Lusitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 11:57 AM   #50
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
freebird5825's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Nowhere, 43N Latitude, NY
Posts: 9,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
No, it counts, you just need to go a few more miles west:
And Martha can get you a reciprocal membership in the Great Lakes Surfing Club...
That was great!
The shots of Niagara Falls got me a little worried though..
Those were actually pretty tame waves for Lake Ontario. She is capable of so much more.
I went there a few years ago on a late winter day and had trouble walking in the strong wind gusts. The waves were magnificent, viewed from shore of course. I wish I had recorded it.
__________________
"All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them." - Walt Disney
freebird5825 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 12:07 PM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
freebird5825's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Nowhere, 43N Latitude, NY
Posts: 9,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by theloneranger View Post
[ My challenge is to learn something for the joy of it, not the mastery of it. See my dilemma?
Have you mastered golf or fly fishing?
Unfortunately, I have ongoing carpal tunnel and tendonitis problems , so my wrist intensive activities are limited. I have to pick and choose very carefully.
I played golf for many years with LH. I never hit very far, but always straight. I was a demon with a wedge and a putter. I can no longer drive, but I can chip and putt. I do play in scrambles. I just skip the driving part.
But fly fishing sounds interesting. We have a lot of streams here. I own a boat and we have a small reservoir locally. But how do I deal with the slimy smelly wriggling fish if I catch one?
__________________
"All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them." - Walt Disney
freebird5825 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 06:45 PM   #52
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftbucket View Post
Anyway, this might sound like heresy on this board, but what about work as a necessary and fulfilling part of being?
Work can be healthy, even if it's just in the Old-Testament sweat-of-the-brow sense. Paid work is even better. But self-directed work is the best of all.

I think the difference is when a job turns into an occupation instead of an avocation. When it destroys a person's work/life balance. I work my assets off around our house and our rental property, and at our taekwondo dojang, but I have much more control over the timing and the amount of the effort. And when I get tired of it, I can stop doing it and either hire it out or dispose of the burden. No deadline stress, and almost everything gets completed eventually.

We've always told our kid that we hope she finds her avocation and will enjoy it for the rest of her life. We also tell her that the sooner she's financially independent, the sooner she'll be able to see if, like us, ER is her avocation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftbucket View Post
I've heard you say words to the effect that growing up, all you wanted to be was a Navy submariner. Wouldn't you say
that achieving that goal was a helpful for your self-actualization? Was all that time you spent doing a job you were passionate about just a "fog"?
My father & grandfather are/were electrical engineers, and my father sold nuclear plants, so it's not as if I ever had a chance. I'm well aware of the "fog of work" around submarining, having gone through 15 months of intensive schooling and another six months of onboard effort just to start standing watch. (Some parts were more passionate than others.) I didn't qualify in submarines until nearly three years after I'd left USNA. When I pinned on gold dolphins, it was a massive dose of self-actualization. It was also like the dog catching the car-- now what?

Well, taking the Navy's nuclear engineering exam, of course. And qualifying for command. And paying back all that effort invested in training me by contributing to the crew and training more young officers. And later on doing everything else that steely-eyed killers of the deep can do.

For me, the part where the "fog of work" wrapped itself most tightly around my head was when my spouse started a family as I was working 60-hour weeks on call (with bad bosses) at a submarine operations command. It was clear that my immediate chain of command regarded family as an unpleasant conflict with work. The passion stopped about then. I was overwhelmed, chronically fatigued, and incredibly frustrated. During the two years that I struggled at the command, I was surrounded by at least a half-dozen Navy Reserve officers who'd arrive on temporary orders to help us out. Several of them were shipmates. My spouse had a similar environment at her command, and her own group of Reserve officers. Yet for some reason, it never occurred to either one of us that we could punch out and downshift. We were just too darn busy and tired to see that we could solve most of our problems by going into the Reserves. I stuck it out all the way to retirement and she lasted another seven years before she finally went into the Reserves.

I'd say that people who are passionate about their work have no reason to pursue ER. Financial independence, sure, everybody should pursue FI. But when the fog of work is making you so miserable that you can't even see a path to FI, let alone ER, then it's time to disrupt the status quo. And if you're FI but afraid of what will happen to you in ER-- all I can recommend is a sabbatical to give you a chance to live the lifestyle. "What will I do all day?!?" is one of the top three worries of ER, but as soon as they start living it every ER wonders what the heck they were worrying about.

Dory36 also used to point out another aspect of work, even if it was an avocation. When you were working while holding the FI bucket in one hand and the BS bucket in the other, if the FI bucket was full then the BS bucket started filling much more quickly. Which one is your left bucket?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebird5825 View Post
But how do I deal with the slimy smelly wriggling fish if I catch one?
The fresh ones don't smell.

And poke (pronounced poe-kay) is yummy!
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 06:54 PM   #53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Purron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,584
So when's the book coming out?
__________________
I purr therefore I am.
Purron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 08:25 PM   #54
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khan View Post
I recall when I was a child I spent summers on my grandparents' farm in Maine, and walked down to the cove (on a calm sunny day) and watch the tide come in over the granite boulders.

I have regained much of that ability to 'just be' since retirement.
Funny. I tend to forget about it as I am consumed in teh swirl of work, commute, family and beer, but when I was a kid I used to spend summers at my parents' vacation place. The lake was 2 blocks from the house and I would routinely spend 3 or 4 days a week fishing, pretty much the whole day at a time. I spent a lot of time by the lake just being there, mostly without a sense of time or urgency.

Hard to imagine having that kind of time myself or allowing my kids that much unsupervised time. Definately something to think about, since those summers were, without a doubt, pretty happy times.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 08:34 PM   #55
Moderator Emeritus
Khan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pine Island, Florida
Posts: 6,868
Send a message via AIM to Khan
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Funny. I tend to forget about it as I am consumed in teh swirl of work, commute, family and beer, but when I was a kid I used to spend summers at my parents' vacation place. The lake was 2 blocks from the house and I would routinely spend 3 or 4 days a week fishing, pretty much the whole day at a time. I spent a lot of time by the lake just being there, mostly without a sense of time or urgency.

Hard to imagine having that kind of time myself or allowing my kids that much unsupervised time. Definately something to think about, since those summers were, without a doubt, pretty happy times.
I recall much unsupervised time at parents and grandparents farms.

Also chores: herding cows, herding pigs, gathering eggs...
__________________
"Knowin' no one nowhere's gonna miss us when we're gone..."
Khan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 08:38 PM   #56
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khan View Post
I recall much unsupervised time at parents and grandparents farms.

Also chores: herding cows, herding pigs, gathering eggs...
Hmmm, farms. For me, this is like traveling to a foreign country where they happen to speak English (sort of). Always wonder if I fundamentally missed out on something there. Then again, a couple generations back on Mom's side, they were farmers poor enough that dinner was generally some variation of squirrel and potatoes.

Such is life.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 08:42 PM   #57
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purron View Post
So when's the book coming out?
Six chapters drafted, working on the seventh of ten, with a lot of details to clean up after that. The research is done, and I'm far smarter on publishers (and self-publishing) than I used to be.

Hopefully before the end of 2009. You know, the same way I said before the end of 2007 and 2008...
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 08:48 PM   #58
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
No deadline stress, and almost everything gets completed eventually.
...
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 08:49 PM   #59
Moderator Emeritus
Khan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pine Island, Florida
Posts: 6,868
Send a message via AIM to Khan
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Hmmm, farms. For me, this is like traveling to a foreign country where they happen to speak English (sort of). Always wonder if I fundamentally missed out on something there. Then again, a couple generations back on Mom's side, they were farmers poor enough that dinner was generally some variation of squirrel and potatoes.

Such is life.
Both sets of grandparents were farmers. Mother said her mother would take a rabbit from the cat and make dinner. We (3 generations) harvested/foraged/gleaned...

It is interesting to 'meet' folks of totally different backgrounds.
__________________
"Knowin' no one nowhere's gonna miss us when we're gone..."
Khan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2009, 08:54 PM   #60
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khan View Post
Both sets of grandparents were farmers. Mother said her mother would take a rabbit from the cat and make dinner. We (3 generations) harvested/foraged/gleaned...

It is interesting to 'meet' folks of totally different backgrounds.
I am convinced that one of the main reasons I got along so well with my extremely bright, gazillionaire ex-boss at the hedge fund I used to work for (and whom I still consider a friend and mentor) is that we were both only a generation or two away from squirrel/woodchuck/possum for dinner.
__________________

__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wireless "invisible" dog fences...do they work? thefed Other topics 11 10-18-2008 10:00 AM
"Baby Boomers Will Spend their Golden Years At Work" windsurf Other topics 5 08-10-2007 03:28 AM
"Work Less, Live More" radicals picket in Charlotte, NC! Nords Life after FIRE 5 05-05-2007 02:40 PM
Allow changing the 4% parameter in "Work Less, Live More" option? wasdana FIRECalc support 0 08-12-2006 09:41 AM
Business Week: "The Golden Years -- At Work?" Nords FIRE and Money 18 06-05-2006 07:38 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:42 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.