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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-24-2005, 09:13 AM   #41
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Originally Posted by Spanky
College tuition of public institutions is still affordable to me - about $6K per year for undergraduate. The problem is that kids choose not to attend a local public university and not to stay home. Some kids would rather live on campus or nearby campus even though their parents is only 5 miles away. It seems funny to me that their parents are in full support of living out the home (as a way to become independent or promote social interactions with other students) but yet complaining about the exorbitant cost of college. They may say that we want the "best" for our kids. I guess that a local well-known public university is not good enough.

I guess there are some exceptions:
A decent college is far away.
The local univeristy does not offer the major wanted.
The local university is of lower tiers in ranking

As for me, I have a daughter who will be attending college soon. She can attend the University of Minnesota (that has a decent ranking in engineering) for $6K, the University of Wisconsin at Madison (another highly ranked engineering school) for $10K or an expensive college such as MIT, Cal Tech, USC or Stanford for $40K+.* It may be true that she might be able to receive grants and scholarship for attending the expensive schools. The odds are slim that the total cost will be comparable to that of either U of Minn or U of Wis.
This brings back many memories. My oldest (son) was signed on at the U of W in Madison but never started. He ended up paying for
100% of his college (has a Bachelors from SIU). Oldest daughter was
told she could go wherever she wished but she had to get the cost down equal to an in-state public school. She did it
(scholarships mostly) and went to an out-of-state private college.
Youngest is a senior at the same school (very expensive).
I contributed what was ordered by the court (post-divorce)
and was very unhappy about it. It made no sense to me that
she went there (no scholarships). Still doesn't. She could have obtained the same education (or better) for a fraction of the cost.

JG
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-24-2005, 11:25 AM   #42
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Originally Posted by slipp
The primary reason for the incredible increase in the cost of higher education (public) is:

1) Educator salaries
2) Benefits (for #1 ... especially pensions and health care)
3) Administrative costs (everyone not teaching but collecting a salary at universities)
4) Politicians that are elected,manipulated and paid for by lobbying interests representing
* * #1* and #3.

5)* We idiot taxpayers that are too lazy and/or stupid to let #1-4 exist.*

Final statement:* Both the U.S. Education & Healthcare Costs are HOPELESSLY BROKE.* It is truly ugly and unfixable by the entities currently in place.* #5 will reach the breaking point and then things will change..... that is sad and will be too late.* We are lazy. Slipp
Yelnad, what's your perspective on the college part of this debate?

University of Hawaii is in the middle of a five-year plan to DOUBLE the tuition. Seems pretty unreasonable when you read the hysterical rhetoric in the local papers. Then you learn that it's going from $4K/year to $8K.

A local paper here published a series of articles claiming that local kids do better at Mainland colleges. It's not that they're necessarily better than UH-- some are and others aren't-- as much as it forces the kids to get out of the house, live independently, and start making their own decisions. Learning a career and getting a degree are incidental byproducts of this process.

Getting away from a megalithic state-supported institution to a small private college was generally perceived to be a good idea, too. Better parking is just an unexpected bonus...
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-24-2005, 07:20 PM   #43
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Re: Thirty & Broke

Ok, I obviously hit a nerve here... Cuthroat... never too lazy here

To see the 2004-05 Average Professor Salary public Universities

http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/UPA/peers/c...rs/profsal.htm

Keep in mind these are not even the "elite" schools. This is just a "middle of the road" example.

I will elaborate when cutthroat has had time to "bone up"

Slipp



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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-24-2005, 07:45 PM   #44
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Originally Posted by slipp
Ok, I obviously hit a nerve here... Cuthroat... never too lazy here

To see the 2004-05 Average Professor Salary* public Universities

http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/UPA/peers/c...rs/profsal.htm

Keep in mind these are not even the "elite" schools.* This is just a "middle of the road" example.

I will elaborate when cutthroat has had time to "bone up"

Slipp*



You seem to think that those numbers are high, but what would those people make in industry? In most cases you are talking about people with PhDs, significant published contributions in their field, and many years experience. In the case of universities with Law schools and Med schools, you have to compare the university salary with what they could make as leading people in those fields.

NC State has a fairly large electrical engineering school. I guarantee you that an accomplished, well-known, experienced electrical engineer with a PhD in industry can make far more than the $94.8K per year that is the published average. In fact, there's a good chance he or she could be making double that in industry.

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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-24-2005, 08:00 PM   #45
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Re: Thirty & Broke

Ok... here we go again..

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/l...N04100032.html

Once we go through this exercise a few more times I will elaborate on the reality
of professional incomes in the US and more importantly (back to subject) how they
compare to salaries of University Professors.* Ultimately.... how this affects the cost of higher education.* (Cut throat ... bone up)

Slipp*
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-24-2005, 10:17 PM   #46
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Re: Thirty & Broke

My husband teaches at a state college--the tuition goes up every year almost the exact percentage that state funding goes down. What a coincidence!

The person who posted average PROFESSOR salaries should know that his chart represents FULL PROFESSOR salaries. How do I know? I frequently check these charts! My husband is making the average pay ($58k) at his college for all teachers (from full professors down to staff instructors). He's a Staff Instructor with over 30 years of industry experience and earns what an Associate Professor with a couple years of experience makes. Associate Profs are usually in their mid-30s through 40s. Full Profs are usually in their 50s and 60s. After 10 years of teaching, my husband should get maybe $800/month in pension w/no COLA. woohoo We also pay more for medical insurance than anybody I know who works for a private company.
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-24-2005, 10:45 PM   #47
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Re: Thirty & Broke

Hi astromeria,

Just curious...

Why would your husband leave the industry he was working in to teach the same industry course for $58K?* Did he retired (after 30 yrs) to do what was personally fullfilling?* *Otherwise, I have to assume the industry he was in did not compensate better than being an associate prof. at $58K.*

Then again, maybe he was one of the many caught in the downsizing/bankruptcy/scandal corporate stories occuring in America today and had no choice. Am I close?

Slipp*

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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-24-2005, 10:50 PM   #48
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Re: Thirty & Broke

Quote:
Originally Posted by slipp
Ok... here we go again..

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/l...N04100032.html

Once we go through this exercise a few more times I will elaborate on the reality
of professional incomes in the US and more importantly (back to subject) how they
compare to salaries of University Professors.* Ultimately.... how this affects the cost of higher education.* (Cut throat ... bone up)

Slipp*
You can't compare the salary of a typical BSEE mechanical engineer with that of an experienced, well-known, internationally respected PhD in the field.

Look. I have a PhD in electrical engineering and have worked in both academia and industry. I am still recruited regularly by both. You can't convince me that academics are better paid because it isn't true. Sorry. You are simply wrong about this.
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-24-2005, 11:20 PM   #49
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Originally Posted by slipp
Why would your husband leave the industry he was working in to teach the same industry course for $58K?* Did he retired (after 30 yrs) to do what was personally fullfilling?* *Otherwise, I have to assume the industry he was in did not compensate better than being an associate prof. at $58K.*

Then again, maybe he was one of the many caught in the downsizing/bankruptcy/scandal corporate stories occuring in America today and had no choice. Am I close?

Slipp*
His last startup was floundering and laid off all the sr people (dept heads)--the VP he reported to figured he could run Eng as well as DH did. Not. Most of the people DH hired left as soon as they could get other jobs. At his peak, DH made ~$150k, so we did face a BIG pay cut. But at age 52, we didn't think the odds of getting a job in Silicon Valley were very good in early 2002. While he still had sharp coding an design skills, he'd been in mgt for over 10 years and knew from his last job search that he couldn't get a job as an individual contributor. My company was doing poorly, too, and I figured it was just a matter of time for me to be laid off as well (but as it turned out, that didn't happen!). My father died the same week DH lost his job, and I wanted to be with my mom who had never lived alone before and was pretty freaked out. I continued to work for my SV company long distance, and DH got hired at the college, starting as an Adjunct Instructor for $11k and NO benefits. After 2 years of teaching undergrads, a grad school class, and intro classes for non-majors, he was offered a 5-yr contract on staff. So $58k seems liek good money now! Anyhow, since our expenses are lower by about the same amount as our income, we aren't feeling any pain. CA is awfully expensive compared to SC.

It might surprise you to know that college teachers get annual reviews similar to those in business. DH was rated on things like teaching success, field knowledge and application, and service to his field, department, school, and community. There's a bell curve of ratings just like in industry, and he was put in the top category, garnering a munificent 3.75% raise. Those in the bottom category get no raise at all, even if tenured (if not tenured, their contract wouldn't be renewed). I think the majority of people are in the satisfactory category and got a 1.5% raise. When I hear that teachers are overpaid, I get steamed! BTW, his dept treats him as an equal despite no PhD--he's got it where it counts, which seems to be all that's needed for respect. He's never had such pleasant colleagues with no axes to grind.
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 06:26 AM   #50
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Originally Posted by astromeria
His last startup was floundering and laid off all the sr people (dept heads)--the VP he reported to figured he could run Eng as well as DH did. Not. Most of the people DH hired left as soon as they could get other jobs. At his peak, DH made ~$150k, so we did face a BIG pay cut. But at age 52, we didn't think the odds of getting a job in Silicon Valley were very good in early 2002. While he still had sharp coding an design skills, he'd been in mgt for over 10 years and knew from his last job search that he couldn't get a job as an individual contributor. My company was doing poorly, too, and I figured it was just a matter of time for me to be laid off as well (but as it turned out, that didn't happen!). My father died the same week DH lost his job, and I wanted to be with my mom who had never lived alone before and was pretty freaked out. I continued to work for my SV company long distance, and DH got hired at the college, starting as an Adjunct Instructor for $11k and NO benefits. After 2 years of teaching undergrads, a grad school class, and intro classes for non-majors, he was offered a 5-yr contract on staff. So $58k seems liek good money now! Anyhow, since our expenses are lower by about the same amount as our income, we aren't feeling any pain. CA is awfully expensive compared to SC.

It might surprise you to know that college teachers get annual reviews similar to those in business. DH was rated on things like teaching success, field knowledge and application, and service to his field, department, school, and community. There's a bell curve of ratings just like in industry, and he was put in the top category, garnering a munificent 3.75% raise. Those in the bottom category get no raise at all, even if tenured (if not tenured, their contract wouldn't be renewed). I think the majority of people are in the satisfactory category and got a 1.5% raise. When I hear that teachers are overpaid, I get steamed! BTW, his dept treats him as an equal despite no PhD--he's got it where it counts, which seems to be all that's needed for respect. He's never had such pleasant colleagues with no axes to grind.
This reminded me of my brother. 58, no degree and currently unemployed
(again). Probably gone through 5 jobs in 5 years.
I think he has been
just taking whatever comes along in fear that nothing else will appear.
Anyway, I feel his pain. Now, I am told they have sold the McMansion and
are moving near his original home base where they will buy with cash
(no mortgage). That's not a bad idea. Of course, I would just hang it up
but he and I are quite different in our approach to life/finances.
He's a good guy though.

JG
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 11:56 AM   #51
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Re: Thirty & Broke

This discussion is of interest to me since I have worked in academia (endowed chair) years ago and now work in industry.* I still review grants so I see salaries of both academics and for-profit scientists.* I think the salary levels listed in previous posts and this one for assistant professors at NCSU http://www2.acs.ncsu.edu/UPA/peers/c...03/bench44.htm are fairly typical.* Salaries will be higher for more pretigious institutions and in places where the cost-of-living is higher.

In our area, we compete with universities for employees, so that's what we pay for salaries.* That is, there is no reason for a for-profit company to pay higher wages than the prevailing equivalent in the area unless we are attracting a hot-shot away from another place.

And to re-iterate what others like astromeria have written, full professors are at the top and so make the 6-figure incomes.* But so are VPs and Directors in industry.* The staff PhD scientist or assistant professor with just few years experience is not up there.

But professors can supplement their income with royalties and consulting jobs.* They can even form their own company or companies.* In my field, it is rare for a professor not to have another gig going on the sidelines.* Sometimes these other duties return in excess of their university salary.

Bottom line: Being an accomplished PhD in a scientific field is good way to retire early.* But you should be having so much fun that ER should not be your main goal.
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 12:25 PM   #52
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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full professors are at the top and so make the 6-figure incomes. But so are VPs and Directors in industry.
This is not a very good analogy since engineers do not automatically become directors and VPs. Most started out as an engineer will stay as an enginner albeit at a higher pay scale but no where near that of a director or higher.
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 12:34 PM   #53
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Bottom line: Being an accomplished PhD in a scientific field is good way to retire early. But you should be having so much fun that ER should not be your main goal.
Being accomplished in anything (i.e, business, investment, medicine, law, politics, sports, acting, arts, and so on) is good - period.
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 12:40 PM   #54
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Originally Posted by LOL!
. . . In our area, we compete with universities for employees, so that's what we pay for salaries.* That is, there is no reason for a for-profit company to pay higher wages than the prevailing equivalent in the area unless we are attracting a hot-shot away from another place. . .
This is obviously true. *Compensation is determined ultimately by supply and demand, so companies and universities have to offer compensation that is consistent with the rest of the market. *In the case of an industry position, total compensation is comprised of salary plus bonus plus stock options . . . *In the case of a University position, total compensation is comprised of salary plus consulting, plus research funding income, . . . *It is typical for a research professor to be guaranteed only 9 months salary. *To earn the rest, he or she has to go out and win research grants that pay their salary plus research costs for the rest of the year. *Consulting contracts can serve as a bonus. *There are exceptions to this.

After initial recruitment, faculty are often subject to arbitrary salary freezes not in evidence in industry. *This is especially true at State institutions. *Whenever a State has budget problems, someone always looks at professor salaries and says, "They make too much money. *Freeze University budgets." *Often the only way for professors to gain reasonable raises is to move into administration or increase their role in endeavors outside the university. *When States hold down salaries for too long, they experience high faculty turnover. *In order to recruit new faculty, they have to make competitive offers and the cylce starts again. *
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 12:44 PM   #55
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Originally Posted by Spanky
This is not a very good analogy since engineers do not automatically become directors and VPs. Most started out as an engineer will stay as an enginner albeit at a higher pay scale but no where near that of a director or higher.
I think it is a great analogy because many assistant and associate professors do not*automatically become full professors. *Indeed, the lower tiered professors may have to move and switch employers more than once if they want to keep working.

Quote:
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Being accomplished in anything (i.e, business, investment, medicine, law, politics, sports, acting, arts, and so on) is good - period.
But of course!
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 02:28 PM   #56
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Re: Thirty & Broke

Just to quantify what I've been saying, I went to the IEEE salary calculator and ran some simulations. Each year IEEE conducts a salary survey of several thousand electrical engineers and updates a tool to calculate market value based on thirteen job factors (experience, education, field within electrical engineering, geographic position, size of employer, type of employer, . . .)

The calculator benchmarks base salary and income from primary sources (base salary + bonuses, commissions and net self-employment income) for individual professionals in specific positions, based on a regression model derived from the current survey year's database. It is useful to estimate compensation for a present position or to project compensation for the same individual in different circumstances.

I ran the simulator for someone in private industry, defense industry and education. Here's the results:

EMPLOYER TYPE. . . . . BASE SALARY ADJUSTMENT
Private Industry . . . . . . . . 0%
Defense Industry . . . . . . . -3.1%
Education . . . . . . . . . . . . . -12.9%

If you happen to be a member of IEEE, you can run the simulations for yourself:

http://salaryapp.ieeeusa.org/rt/sala...e/Compensation



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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 02:41 PM   #57
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Re: Thirty & Broke

Similarly, here is a report on industrial physicists' salaries at the PhD level.
http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-10/iss-6/p10.html

I think the salary ranges are not out of line with the full/associate professor salaries in other links posted previously in this thread.
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 04:49 PM   #58
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Originally Posted by ((^+^)) SG
Just to quantify what I've been saying, I went to the IEEE salary calculator and ran some simulations. Each year IEEE conducts a salary survey of several thousand electrical engineers and updates a tool to calculate market value based on thirteen job factors (experience, education, field within electrical engineering, geographic position, size of employer, type of employer, . . .)

The calculator benchmarks base salary and income from primary sources (base salary + bonuses, commissions and net self-employment income) for individual professionals in specific positions, based on a regression model derived from the current survey year's database. It is useful to estimate compensation for a present position or to project compensation for the same individual in different circumstances.

I ran the simulator for someone in private industry, defense industry and education. Here's the results:

EMPLOYER TYPE. . . . . BASE SALARY ADJUSTMENT
Private Industry . . . . . . . . 0%
Defense Industry . . . . . . . -3.1%
Education . . . . . . . . . . . . . -12.9%

If you happen to be a member of IEEE, you can run the simulations for yourself:

http://salaryapp.ieeeusa.org/rt/sala...e/Compensation



The Salary Guru returns! Do you know if any of these models take benefits into account? I read a Business Week article a while back that compared public and private employment compensation and when benefits were figured in, the pay was pretty close to the same and better in public employment in certain circumstances.
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 05:32 PM   #59
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Originally Posted by Martha
The Salary Guru returns!* * Do you know if any of these models take benefits into account?* I read a Business Week article a while back that compared public and private employment compensation and when benefits were figured in, the pay was pretty close to the same and better in public employment in certain circumstances.*
Hi Martha,

The survey the IEEE takes asks about and tabulates benefits information, but the salary calculator does not attempt to include this in the calculations -- probably because it would be very difficult to do.

My guess is that for electrical engineering, large companies probably offer better benefits than universities in many cases. When I was an Assistant professor, both of the universities I worked at offered free tuition and fees to immediate family members of faculty. If you had kids, that could be a really valuable benefit that industry doesn't offer. But my medical plan got better when I left academia. My corporate vs academic tax deferred investing options were different. Some advantages to each. I probably came out way ahead because the corporate stock that was part of my 401(k) went skyword in the 90's and I cashed out before it fell. The state pension plan would have been a little nicer than the corporate plan if I stayed long enough. Neither pension plan was that great.

I'm sure the academic vs industrial wage issue varies significantly by field. In engineering, there is a large corporate base that competes for talent and helps establish the market value. This is probably also true for law and medicine and some of the financial fields. It is less true for the pure sciences or math and much less true for liberal arts degrees. (How many positions are available for poets in the corporate world?)

So everyone's experience is probably a little different. The bottom line is the point that LOL makes about the market determining the salary. The difference between academic and corporate compensation can't become too large or all the talent would leave the lower paying area.
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Re: Thirty & Broke
Old 11-25-2005, 05:54 PM   #60
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Re: Thirty & Broke

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Originally Posted by astromeria
My husband teaches at a state college--the tuition goes up every year almost the exact percentage that state funding goes down. What a coincidence!
I'd be curious whether (and if so, how much) of student tuition at state schools is siphoned off for non-educational purposes. Also, it's been my experience that universities often squander tuition and alumni donations -- mostly without realizing it.
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