To be an entreprenuer or not to be

[tiuxiu]

One thing I do like about being my own boss is that here I am at work, reading a message board and posting a message. Since I am not paid a wage and only earn if I bring in money, I can waste some time if I want.

Strangely I feel the same way about working for a company.

Generally speaking my paycheck will be the same whether I slack the day away or not. Obviously consistent excessive slacking would result in losing my job but it's pretty easy to lose hours here or there surfing the web, chatting, or generally screwing off... something I had always assumed I wouldn't do if it was on my own dime instead of the shareholders and the people in the upstairs corner offices.

[retire@40]

Originally Posted by tiuxiu

Strangely I feel the same way about working for a company.

Generally speaking my paycheck will be the same whether I slack the day away or not. Obviously consistent excessive slacking would result in losing my job but it's pretty easy to lose hours here or there surfing the web, chatting, or generally screwing off... something I had always assumed I wouldn't do if it was on my own dime instead of the shareholders and the people in the upstairs corner offices.

They probably allow you to do this because you are getting underpaid. So if you only produce 75% of the time, they are still getting the required minimum output from you.

[tiuxiu]

Nah, according to most salary resources I check with I'm paid pretty well inline with my position and experience. I think it's very difficult to quantify what production is in some engineering disciplines, so measuring slack time isn't easy.

[Grizz]

I'm an entrepreneur, if you consider buying and growing an existing business to be entrepreneurial. I'm 39 yrs old, and FI. From the age of 30-36 I worked extremely hard, and often screwed up visits and dinners with having the cell phone ringing after hours, middle of the night, and weekends. That 5-6 year period of hard work combined with some dumb luck has paid off well. It has allowed me to work only Mon.-Thurs. now with a large (by hourly worker standards) paycheque and a growing and successful business.

In response to earlier suggestions that entrepreneurs don't hang out in forums like this, I am one, and I do. Everyone retires at some point, and in many cases it may be even tougher for entrepreneurs than employees. Entrepreneurs are used to being the one that the show revolves around. I fear that it will be very strange to be a "nobody" after a career of being the center of attention for an organization.

I find this forum to be highly entertaining, but more importantly by "hanging out" and participating in FIRE discussions, I hope to learn to think, do and act like a successful early retiree with the goal of easing the transition....whenever that is.

[BunsGettingFirm]

Originally Posted by retire@40

They probably allow you to do this because you are getting underpaid. So if you only produce 75% of the time, they are still getting the required minimum output from you.

That's exactly right because there are workhaholics making up the difference in work output and getting even more underpaid.

[BunsGettingFirm]

I'm trying to my sister to dust off her real estate expertise and go into a real estate management business with me, but she's set on starting something from scratch. I'm more inclined to doing the due diligence and research the heck of a company before you buy it. Building a client base from scratch just seems like a very painful route. Either way, you are doing research.

To illustrate my point, I also see electrical engineering companies for sale, and even though I'm an electrical engineer by practice and training, I can't say that I know exactly what the heck they are doing just by reading the prospectus. I'd still need to do a bunch research. That's why I think, in my truly limited and humble opinion on this particular matter, is that people management skills, financial management skills, sales skills, and marketing skills are the general skills you absolutely need for any business. The specifics products and methods of a business you can learn if you retain the key employees and if you're willing to put in extra time to just to learn. Of course, I'm not saying that I can become a doctor and a lawyer by following Rich in Tampa and Martha around.

[kcowan]

I had one period when I had a tyrant workoholic as a boss. It was when I was a self-employed entrepreneur!

[BunsGettingFirm]

Originally Posted by kcowan

I had one period when I had a tyrant workoholic as a boss. It was when I was a self-employed entrepreneur!

See my weekday post times. All are after 9 PM. No time to hang here during the day because of solid work and study schedule for 12 hours. Working myself hard is not a problem. I just have problems taking orders from morons.

[Bree]

Heh - Buns, try doing a brutal 80/20 analysis of current customers (especially if they are repeat order customers) find that 20% which generates your 80% revenue, and then focus on the characteristics of those 20% and find more like them.

Easier said than done, but upon doing a recent 80/20 analysis of my own business I was pretty enlightened.

kcowan - I love this quote about the tyrant boss - too true!

cheers.

[dreb]

It doesn't really matter who or what your boss is (customers or an employer). You will only ever get out what you put in. Yes 75% of the fortune 500 may be self made through business - but these people have put an extensive amount of effort into getting there. The Microsoft Millionaires, maybe luck - but those who made the money worked hard.

[nphx]

11 years into my 2nd small biz IT related. Its comfortable now. I have started to select good customers and when a pain in the keester offers me an out - I am always helpful to get their son or new vendor what they need to takeover since they can certainly do it for less and better. A bit better in seeing that profile client coming and not so hungry to persue it.

Now as fruits of labor come in - i try to find ways of bringing long term employees along. I'll have to deal with that because im obviously looking at ER scenarios for me - and how to put some security into the loyal employees. At a really really smaller scale I need a Warren Buffet type acquisition where the business viability and customers and employees are appreciated.

[armor99]

Originally Posted by retire@40

But you still had a "boss" giving you orders. Maybe some people need a "boss" because they can't figure out how to bring home the bacon on their own. Once you have your own business, it's hard if not impossible ever to work under somebody else's control whether he's good or bad. To me having a "boss" is infinitely worse than working.

One day I very much hope to do as you have done. I think you are absolutely right. No matter how much you might like your job, or how great you boss might be, ultimately.... you are still pulling the yoke for someone else. How can I ever be truly happy, when the product of my own labor is not actually mine to own? No matter how much I get paid at a company, the return on investment for the company will always be higher than the rate they are paying me. True... there is far more security in a job, than going it alone, but without risk, there can be no reward. The only thing I need to do now is find an area that I have some aptitude for, and am interested enough in.. to go at it for many years. And then.... I think I will finally be happy.

[mja]

Originally Posted by armor99

No matter how much I get paid at a company, the return on investment for the company will always be higher than the rate they are paying me.

I hate to nitpick, but that's not strictly true, in my opinion. Picture a slacker employee, who doesn't get the job done, but continues to get paid. It wouldn't make any sense to keep that employee, but it's not unusual to see people who do exactly that at government jobs. Many (most?) politicians are fine examples of "employees" that generate a negative ROI.

[Milton]

Originally Posted by Beachbumz

I think the key here is as the business owner, you CAN tell the customer/client that you don't want to do business with them! I only did this a couple of times in 13 years, but it sure made me feel good and I didn't have to worry about being fired.

It depends.

Although most wage slaves don't have much real freedom, a salaried employee with a high-demand skill set can often refuse to do specific types of work, or too much work ... and the employer will have to accomodate them, or they will 'jump ship'.

Conversely, many small business owners have only two or three major clients, to whom they must kowtow or risk jeopardising their entire business. And this is also true of some very large businesses: e.g., few consumer products companies can afford to argue with huge retailers like Walmart or Costco.

Originally Posted by Martha

I think many entrepreneurs work harder and longer hours than the average salaryman to keep their customers and grow their businesses.

Yes, I agree. Certainly the entrepreneur has much more incentive than a salaried employee, whose long-term future with the employer is dependent upon factors entirely beyond his or her control.

Like "Peter Gibbons" said in Office Space: "It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime; so where's the motivation? ... [M]y only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired."

Originally Posted by Martha

My clients often try to tell me what to do and when to do it. If they need something, they might need it now. I have to do it or lose the client. My associates sometimes have problems with this concept.... I ask for something on Friday (because a client asked) and they say they have plans for the weekend and can't get it done. So I do it myself, or have the associate grumble because I made him miss his weekend.

Of course, I could tell my clients to wait. But I think I would lose my biggest and best clients if I did so.

Martha, I don't know your practice, the nature of your clients' typical problems, or the strength of your client relationships. But it strikes me that the key sentences in the above passage are (1) "If they need something, they might need it now", and (2) "I could tell my clients to wait. But I think I would lose my biggest and best clients if I did so".

Perhaps it would be possible to ask your clients how time-sensitive each new assignment is. The assumptions that everything is urgent, and that your best clients will drop you like a hot potato if you don't jump through arbitrary hoops, might not be warranted.

[ScooterGuy]

Back a couple of decades, I started my own company. I did this out of sheer desperation, since my science field had just tanked (Iit was pretty obscure to begin with, and the Fed stopped all research funding). I became a medical-technical writer, free-lance researcher and a microcomputer database programmer (remember Paradox and RBase?).

I broke even the 1st year, made a profit the 2nd year .... I got so successful that my wife at the time stole the business out from under me during the divorce. What I'd taken 3 years to build, she ran into the grolund in 6 months.

I tried twice more, but never had enough capitalization to get past the 1st year.

Following the subsequent divorce, nervous breakdown, depression and being disowned and dis-inherited (mother: "your ex-wife is my best friend and she would NEVER, EVER lie to me ...), I did pick up jobs, & did well until I ER'd with my now DW.

Being an entrepreneur is a very RISKY way to live -- it's feast oir famine -- if your SO or spouse isn't on the same page as you, or has 'hidden agendas,'it is doomed to failure.

But, dear God, there's nothing like building and owning your own business. It takes over your liue, 24/7/365. Nothing ... except possibly ER with a comfortable life, spent with a hot wife.

[Milton]

Originally Posted by ScooterGuy

Mother: "your ex-wife is my best friend and she would NEVER, EVER lie to me ..."

Ouch.

Originally Posted by ScooterGuy

Being an entrepreneur is a very RISKY way to live

Yes, that's true. It is not for everyone, and only those (relatively few) people with a real passion to be their own boss should attempt it. I think it's regrettable that so many success books advocate self-employment for the masses as some sort of panacea.

Originally Posted by ScooterGuy

if your SO or spouse isn't on the same page as you, or has 'hidden agendas', it is doomed to failure.

I would go farther and say that this is essentially true of any plan or project (including LBYM) undertaken by someone who is married.

[BunsGettingFirm]

Originally Posted by ScooterGuy

But, dear God, there's nothing like building and owning your own business. It takes over your liue, 24/7/365. Nothing ... except possibly ER with a comfortable life, spent with a hot wife.

First let me say that I absolutely am in awe of your perseverance.

As for that last paragraph, is that a good or bad thing? For us active types who want or need to occupied by some grand ambition, it could actually be tonic. OK, ok, if I had ER and hot wife both lined up at the same time, I'd choose that, but to have hot wife, I'd need to delay ER by quite a few years.

[tryan]

hmmm, here's 2 ways to have the "spouse thing" play out in a successful business start-up:

1) they are a partner carrying half the load and sharing in the decisions.
2) they have nothing to do with it ... work a separate job ... stay home with the kids ...

Anything in between (e.g. wants to make decisions but not "work") is doomed to failure.

DW has nothing to do with the RE. We own stuff she's never seen (let alone step foot in). That's what works for us.

[kcowan]

Originally Posted by Milton

Ouch.
I would go farther and say that this is essentially true of any plan or project (including LBYM) undertaken by someone who is married.

When I quite big corp and started up my company, it took a couple of years to realize that my DW as not committed to it. After separation and divorce, my entrepreneurial success took off. Current DW is much better suited to me even now retired.