Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-03-2012, 09:03 AM   #21
Recycles dryer sheets
GSMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: League City
Posts: 65
I did the opposite of what the narrator was suggesting. I once had a dream of going on the road with a big band and making my mark in the music business. I quickly learned that only a handful of people really make it big! Yes, there are alot of "arteest" out there that do it for the arts but I was also keenly aware of how lack of money can make your life miserable. My folks never had any and it was always a topic when I was growing up. Anyways, I ended up with a degree in Finance, and an MBA. Money is/was good in Finance but the work was not enjoyable. Corporate world is mean and ugly but I survived and it will allow me to retire probably before I hit 55. I still play part time in bands and see some of my 50 something buddies playing "Brick House" at 2:00 a.m. to pay for their cholosterol meds. Like Frank Sinatra said, "I did it my way", well almost.
__________________

__________________
GSMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-03-2012, 09:04 AM   #22
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Well, there are all kinds here at ER.org aren't there...
I'm curious - what did you mean by this statement?

I see a few posts supportive of the OP, a few more/less neutral, and now a (slight?) majority of posts seem to be saying "poppycock!". So yeah, I guess that's "all kinds".

But I don't find that noteworthy, different people have different viewpoints, that's pretty typical. Maybe I'm a little surprised at the amount of support in this community - I'd assume most of us had to work hard to FIRE, and achieving FIRE is probably less likely 'doing what you love', disregarding $, and assuming the $ will follow. Though that happens from time to time, but IME it's a small minority.

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 09:12 AM   #23
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by GSMAN View Post
...I still play part time in bands and see some of my 50 something buddies playing "Brick House" at 2:00 a.m. to pay for their cholosterol meds. Like Frank Sinatra said, "I did it my way", well almost.
If I had a job doing what I loved I bet I would end up hating what I had loved. I did end up doing something I loved but I didn't know I loved it and was good at it before it was my job. I bet your band is fun.
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 09:50 AM   #24
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,391
Well, I always liked what I did. Then, people also liked what I did, and that allowed me to up my price. Eventually, my price is higher than what they want to pay, so I ER'ed. If and when they change their mind and are willing to pay what I think I deserve, then I might go do some work.

I guess if your endeavor is about producing something tangible, then it would make it easier to make a living with your work. If you are passionate about something like skydiving, BASE jumping, world traveling, or even partying, shoplifting, drug indulging, then it is going to be a bit harder to persuade people to finance your endeavor. It is possible though. Look at all the people whose photos are on supermarket tabloids. They surely make more money than most of us do, but I would not know how to start.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 09:53 AM   #25
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,261
RE: GSMAN and his part-time band -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestwifeever View Post
If I had a job doing what I loved I bet I would end up hating what I had loved. I did end up doing something I loved but I didn't know I loved it and was good at it before it was my job. I bet your band is fun.
Very much agree. In the home-brewing world, there is a very active and well respected hobby-brewer. People are always telling him - 'man, you should start your own brewery!' He always answers - 'then it would be a JOB, and I'd end up hating it! Why ruin a great hobby?'.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Is the messenger dead yet? Jeeeeeez...
Not following you. I didn't see anyone attack the poster, just the content of the video that was posted.

If you are saying that critiquing the producer of the video is 'killing the messenger' - that doesn't apply. He isn't just the messenger of someone else's information (which is what "killing the messenger" refers to), it is his message, not someone else's.

I take it you agree with the video? You didn't say.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 09:55 AM   #26
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Darn, in answer to the post, I was just going to say DW..........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 11:17 AM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
Darn, in answer to the post, I was just going to say DW..........
She looking over your shoulder?
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2012, 07:22 PM   #28
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
veremchuka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: irradiated - too close to the nuclear furnace
Posts: 1,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Is the messenger dead yet? Jeeeeeez...
I wasn't being critical of the op and if that was how anyone saw it I apologize, it was the dopey message in the video that got me so po'ed.
__________________
veremchuka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2012, 11:22 PM   #29
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 113
Until we live in a Utopian society, it's not practical to ignore money while making education/career decisions. I think the book "Your Money Or Your Life" delivers the message better, and I highly recommend reading it if you haven't done so.
__________________
azphx1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 12:23 AM   #30
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by ls99 View Post
Wonder what the guy posing the question is doing for a living and who is paying him?

He is advocating living the wet dream. Reaility has way of intruding, like food, shelter and other diddly stuff.
Alan Watts is long dead. He died in his 50's back in early 1970's. He called himself a philosophical entertainer. He was known for writing and lecturing about Zen and Eastern philosophy. He advocated free love, the counter-culture, "expanding" the mind with LSD and mescaline.

The 60's mindset, somewhat of an extended adolescence of the hippie culture, may appear quaint, naive or irresponsible to some today.
__________________
bondi688 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 02:18 PM   #31
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ls99's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by bondi688 View Post
Alan Watts is long dead. He died in his 50's back in early 1970's. He called himself a philosophical entertainer. He was known for writing and lecturing about Zen and Eastern philosophy. He advocated free love, the counter-culture, "expanding" the mind with LSD and mescaline.

The 60's mindset, somewhat of an extended adolescence of the hippie culture, may appear quaint, naive or irresponsible to some today.
Sorry, I have no idea of who or what Alan Watts was. In 65 I arrived in the US, then was kept busy by the Army for several year.
__________________
There must be moderation in everything, including moderation.
ls99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 05:44 PM   #32
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
RE: GSMAN and his part-time band -

Very much agree. In the home-brewing world, there is a very active and well respected hobby-brewer. People are always telling him - 'man, you should start your own brewery!' He always answers - 'then it would be a JOB, and I'd end up hating it! Why ruin a great hobby?'.
There were a couple of decent articles on this issue in the May 21, 2012 edition of The Wall Street Journal (page R7):

Rob Johnson, "Point. Set. Match. I Lose"

Tom McNichol, "Do What You Love? Maybe Not"
__________________
"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive". Robert Louis Stevenson, An Inland Voyage (1878)
Milton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 02:30 PM   #33
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
audreyh1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 16,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
He kinda glossed over the point where you have to do a bunch of things that you don't like to do in order to get to the part you like to do.

If "money was no object" when I was working, then I would have spent all of my workday doing the things I enjoyed... and paying someone else to go to department head meetings for me.
Even my boss who really enjoyed running his own company said "there is no job, no matter how great, that doesn't have some sh!tty parts."

I think when someone else is paying you to do something, even if you are doing what you dream of and love, there will always be some aspect that you won't like or some hassles.

Personally I find that not having any customers, clients, co-workers or bosses to deal with is what really eliminates the crap. But you can't do that until you are FIRE'd!
__________________
Well, I thought I was retired. But it seems that now I'm working as a travel agent instead!
audreyh1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 01:15 PM   #34
Full time employment: Posting here.
EvrClrx311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 524
I take no offense to anything posted here. As an INTJ I love to see other perspectives on things. Debate is awesome for my psyche.

I'll say one thing. I see a common denominator in what people here posted that is negative. You feel the narrator is labeling what they did or do as a job as the wrong thing - boring and bad? I think you guys are putting too much into the skydiving, horse riding, mountain climbing. Those are emotional triggers for the disengaged... you know, those people sitting in a dead end retail job just to pay bills.

I see the opposite. If you valued financial security... and picked a job that gave you that. You did what the narrator is suggesting. You took control of your life and had a plan to live a happy one. Even if the actual job you did wasn't enjoyable... you maximized that positive (security) by setting aside money to get to what you wanted to do. Most people in life cannot do that. They need a video like this to snap them out of their paycheck to paycheck lives.

Its one thing to get paid well for something you don't like and to set aside to get out of it asap. Its another entirely to get paid poorly for something you hate, that is what this video is speaking about. At least in my view.

This video rings true for me because I both have a job I love and opportunity to use the security, financially, from it to do things in life that make me happier.

I'd like to think that if I hated engineering... I wouldn't have put myself through the misery of this just to get a paycheck. I'd try to find the maximum earning potential from a job that I could enjoy.

The message isn't about ignoring money... its about trying your best not to let it control you. Anyone who has FIRE'd or plans to, is already light years ahead on that front.

just my 2 cents...
__________________
EvrClrx311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 03:32 PM   #35
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvrClrx311 View Post
I take no offense to anything posted here. As an INTJ I love to see other perspectives on things. Debate is awesome for my psyche.

.... If you valued financial security... and picked a job that gave you that. You did what the narrator is suggesting. You took control of your life and had a plan to live a happy one. ....

Its one thing to get paid well for something you don't like and to set aside to get out of it asap. Its another entirely to get paid poorly for something you hate, that is what this video is speaking about. At least in my view.

....

The message isn't about ignoring money... its about trying your best not to let it control you. Anyone who has FIRE'd or plans to, is already light years ahead on that front.

just my 2 cents...
Good to get your feedback on the responses.

I can go along with you that if we chose a balance between job satisfaction and financial security, that we are 'doing what we desire'. But I don't see how you get that from this video.

I watched again, and I'll quote as closely as I can (the captions are off a bit).

First, he is guiding students with these words, this isn't just a message for people already 'trapped' in a dead end job they don't enjoy. So I'll stick with my earlier comment that this could be dangerous advice.

He says (emph mine)... ' If money were no object, ... what do you love, do that, forget the money, ... if you love what you are doing, no matter what it is, you can become master of it, and you will be able to get a good fee for it...'

Sure, that will work for some people, but I think it is foolish to say 'forget about the money'. One should be well aware of what the financial outcomes are likely to be, and think about how that would be for them.

The other thing I'll stand by, and object to, is his black & white view. It's just really biased, and unhelpful. He says... ' If money is the most important thing, you will completely waste your time...', he refers to a 'miserable life'... (edit/add: ) It's not like it has to be one or the other, money was not 'the most important thing' for me, but it was a consideration. One that I am glad I thought about.

And then something about us raising our children to (apparently) live the same 'wretched life' we lived? 'all retch and no vomit'? Is that what he said?

I think he would be better serving those students if he offered some real perspective on different careers, the typical earnings, and ask each individual to consider how happy they might be in that career, and balance that against financial rewards.

Maybe the current massive student loan debt we read about is partially an outcome of the kind of approach this video encourages? I don't see how you can say that 'The message isn't about ignoring money... ', when he comes out and says 'forget about the money... if money was no object'?

If the video is really about 'trying your best not to let it (money) control you.', I think he did a lousy job. That would be a worthwhile message (again, balance is key, IMO), but I didn't hear that, and the words don't seem to match that.

Actually, DW went through some of this 'do what you love' approach. The post is already too long, so I'll just say she ended up switching careers, and neither of us would use words like 'miserable' or 'wretched' to describe our lives so far. Heh, heh, now I'm actually starting to get PO'd all over - at the arrogance of this guy!

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 03:46 PM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,261
OK, I can't help myself....

After re-reading my post, I also have to say - is this really a 'problem'? Really, how many young kids are looking to get into a high paying career, just for the money, even though they expect to hate it? Most high paying careers take a lot of effort to attain. I bet most in that path have thought pretty hard about it.

I'd expect the opposite to be far more likely - that students are following their dream with no awareness of the economics, or demand in that field. Their 'dream' turns into waiting tables to make the rent. Dream, dream, dream.

Maybe some kids allow themselves to get pushed into the family business, or follow a career that their family pushed on them. But that's really a different problem. That could be any combination of high/low pay, and high/low job satisfaction. It's an individual thing.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 05:30 PM   #37
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvrClrx311 View Post
I see the opposite. If you valued financial security... and picked a job that gave you that. You did what the narrator is suggesting. You took control of your life and had a plan to live a happy one. Even if the actual job you did wasn't enjoyable... you maximized that positive (security) by setting aside money to get to what you wanted to do. Most people in life cannot do that. They need a video like this to snap them out of their paycheck to paycheck lives.
You're talking about making sacrifices early on in order to have a secure future, which is what most of us here can relate to. I don't see that in what Alan Watts said at all:

Quote:
You do that, and forget the money. Because if you say that getting the money is the most important thing, you will spend your life completely wasting your time. You’ll be doing things you don’t like doing in order to go on living that is to go on doing things you don’t like doing. Which is stupid! Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way. And after all if you do really like what you’re doing it doesn’t matter what it is, you can eventually become a master of it. The only way to become a master of something is to be really with it.
I would venture to guess that if we took a poll here, the majority of us did not pick our career out of a passion for it, but because of some other factor. Speaking for myself, if I loved my job so much, I would not care about achieving FIRE because I wouldn't want to stop doing it.
__________________
azphx1972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 09:03 AM   #38
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50
I also have to say - is this really a 'problem'? Really, how many young kids are looking to get into a high paying career, just for the money, even though they expect to hate it? ... I'd expect the opposite to be far more likely - that students are following their dream with no awareness of the economics, or demand in that field.
Absolutely correct.
__________________
"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive". Robert Louis Stevenson, An Inland Voyage (1878)
Milton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 09:53 AM   #39
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton
Absolutely correct.
My daughter is certainly following yours and ERD's viewpoint. Driving straight of the cliff to reach her goal of a "starving artist degree". I have done everything I can to persuade her differently but it isn't going to happen. It is her life, but I had to make sure she knew living in a refrigerator cardboard box with saran wrap serving as the vinyl siding will not be an enjoyable lifestyle. I have also told her to develop her "barista" skills as that part time job will be needed to subsidize her career job. Totally have wasted my breath the past 2 years, but oh well, still love her though.
__________________
Mulligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2012, 10:10 AM   #40
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,261
More reflecting on this.... when I think back to the things I hated about my job, the things that made it miserable from time to time - those had little/nothing to do with the career I chose. They were the bureaucratic brick-walls, the politics, etc., that most of us seem to run into (else Dilbert cartoons would have been a flop).

So I might go to lunch with a mechanical engineer, a production sup, a line tech and guy in finance, and we'd all be beefing about basically the same things.

I read the articles that Milton posted below. Same thing - these guys might have their 'dream job', but the 'stuff' that we hate creeps into those too. This ties back to doing what you love as a hobby, so it doesn't get 'corrupted' by office politics and such.

A slight aside - some of the people who tell you they just 'love their jobs' are lying. I think it makes them feel good, and maybe superior to say it, like 'hey, my life is great, so sorry you are stuck and sad'. One friend of ours is like this, and I've known others. While she has a job, she talks about how great it is. She moves on, and a year later she's telling you how bad that old job sucked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton View Post
There were a couple of decent articles on this issue in the May 21, 2012 edition of The Wall Street Journal (page R7):

Rob Johnson, "Point. Set. Match. I Lose"

Tom McNichol, "Do What You Love? Maybe Not"
Here's the links - looks like they are on-line in their entirety:

Entrepreneurs are told to follow their passion. That may kill your passion. - WSJ.com

The hard reality of teaching tennis - WSJ.com

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:09 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.