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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-22-2006, 01:20 PM   #21
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

Late 50's, Ford Foundation advanced physics class in top public high school my Sr. year, only girl in the class when the discussion of next year's schools came up.. MIT, Harvard, but the teacher commented that I was going to the U for "a Batchelor" (chuckle, chuckle). I had great Iowa, SAT scores - better than almost all of the guys, but never mind..

That takes the fire out of the belly.
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-27-2006, 02:54 PM   #22
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

For those who wonder about the 'cure' for science education in the US this article from the NY Times (May 25) may lead the way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/25/op...1e5f1d&ei=5070
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-27-2006, 03:33 PM   #23
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
It's well established that boys and girls develop different abilities at different ages. This was reinforced by what I saw. Boys were agressive, climbing, and exploring from an early age. Girls developed language skills earlier.
And since cause and effect (or lack thereof) are among my favorite things to debate, do boys and girls develop those skills at the times they do because its inherent in their sexuality or because those things were encouraged/discouraged by family and other associated adults?

In other words, were boys rewarded for acting "like boys" and girls rewarded for acting "like girls".

Similarly, my answer to the OP's original question is that both sexes usually fail to achieve well in careers dominated by the opposite sex. At a minimum, they're not well regarded.

An ex-GF had several options coming out of her masters program to get into a couple of different fields. Some were fairly male dominated, some not. She figured she'd have a tough time in the male dominated areas (think mining, oil exploration type work). So being hard headed, she tried them anyhow. Got shuffled back into jobs like map making and taking notes. Then when she got fed up and tried to move back into other areas that she'd have more of a chance in, she had so much experience doing the stuff she hated that the only good paying jobs were 'more of the same'.

At the other end of the spectrum, I can tell you first hand how well regarded a stay at home dad with a working wife is, for people who dont know the whole story...
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-27-2006, 04:20 PM   #24
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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Originally Posted by Brat
Late 50's, Ford Foundation advanced physics class in top public high school my Sr. year, only girl in the class when the discussion of next year's schools came up.. MIT, Harvard, but the teacher commented that I was going to the U for "a Batchelor" (chuckle, chuckle).* I had great Iowa, SAT scores - better than almost all of the guys, but never mind..*

That takes the fire out of the belly.
Advice from ignorant idiots to high school students isn't restricted to the girl's. I had to get a signature from my high school's counseling office to apply to college. I wanted to go into engineering but my "Washington Pre-College Test" (required in the 60's but I don't know about now) said I'd do much better getting a language arts degree (specifically history). She wouldn't sign for several weeks because she wanted me to sign up to get an education degree to teach history. I threatened to go to the principal.
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-27-2006, 06:59 PM   #25
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

There are fewer and fewer jobs that are gender dominated (80% or more).* To some extent this is because women are having children later in life.* Some careers are very difficult on family life, such as professional mariners.* American shipping companies don't let employees sail with kids and spouse routinely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
... Got shuffled back into jobs like map making and taking notes.*
Early in my career DOL sent me to audit apparel employers in NYC because I knew how to sew. That is where I happened upon Carlos Gambino and Thomas Lucchese families (they are related by marriage).* No, I didn't have the nerve to ask if Thomas was short a couple digits.

When I transferred back to the NW my boss there was hesitant to give me logging assignments ... me, the grand-daughter of a Norwegian immigrant sawmill owner. When I convinced him that I knew the difference between a chainsaw operator and choker setter he relented.*

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.... At the other end of the spectrum, I can tell you first hand how well regarded a stay at home dad with a working wife is, for people who dont know the whole story...
My son-in-law had the same problem when he took family leave for a year.* I really understand.
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-27-2006, 09:44 PM   #26
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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And since cause and effect (or lack thereof) are among my favorite things to debate, do boys and girls develop those skills at the times they do because its inherent in their sexuality or because those things were encouraged/discouraged by family and other associated adults?

In other words, were boys rewarded for acting "like boys" and girls rewarded for acting "like girls".
Well, that was my point.* *If you watch kids develop before there is much socialization, it's clear that the sexes develop differently.* *Frankly, I wasn't expecting it.* * I assume it's mostly a function of hormones, and I didn't think hormone levels would be that different in kids before the age of, say, 2 years old.

Obviously, all parents want their kids to develop language skills, for example.* *I don't think adults have a conscious bias in this area.* *But girls develop language and fine motor skills earlier.* *I'm certain you'd see the same thing in kids raised by wolves.

I guess I don't see the point in pretending that everybody is built the same.* * Embrace your differences and run with them.
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-27-2006, 10:08 PM   #27
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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Originally Posted by wab
I guess I don't see the point in pretending that everybody is built the same.* * Embrace your differences and run with them.
It makes a big difference in school, where the curriculum and the class structure would benefit from treating kids according to the style of learning they feel more comfortable with.

Overall I'm glad we're raising a girl. But it's a lot more difficult in many ways than raising a guy...
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 12:38 AM   #28
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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It makes a big difference in school, where the curriculum and the class structure would benefit from treating kids according to the style of learning they feel more comfortable with.
Hmm, maybe we'll see the pendulum swing away from co-ed schools once we start accepting differences rather than trying to normalize everyone.* * I've mentioned before that my kid is in a Montessori preschool, and their tag line is "follow the child."* * I like that as an educational philosophy.

Quote:
Overall I'm glad we're raising a girl.* But it's a lot more difficult in many ways than raising a guy...
More difficult in general, or more difficult for a guy?* * I find myself trying to encourage traditional male traits in my girl.* * Taking things apart to see how they work.* *Competition.* *I read her books about dinosaurs, etc.

But I try to resist, because I remember how messed up one of my science grrrl friends was in college.* * She felt pressured by her dad to excel in both science and athletics.* *She was pretty good in these areas, but she didn't feel she could reach the top.* *She was extremely self-critical and had pretty low self-esteem.* She felt that her dad had nurtured these traits because he really wanted a boy.
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 01:16 AM   #29
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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Originally Posted by wab
Hmm, maybe we'll see the pendulum swing away from co-ed schools once we start accepting differences rather than trying to normalize everyone.* * I've mentioned before that my kid is in a Montessori preschool, and their tag line is "follow the child."* * I like that as an educational philosophy.
Well, I think that learning styles are generally separated by gender but every kid is different. The bell curve is practically a rectangle with two vague humps.

"Follow the child" works great when there's a teacher who mixes different styles to find out what suits the kids-- "sit at your desk and read", kinesthetic problem solving, computer games, groups, independent study, whatever-- and finds something that hits every kid's learning buttons at least once during the day. I agree that a same-sex school makes it easier on the teacher and maybe better for girls but I'm not sure how to separate the rest of the results from the hype. I don't think that an all-girl school makes more women scientists, for example, although I bet it really cuts down on the discipline problems.

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More difficult in general, or more difficult for a guy? I find myself trying to encourage traditional male traits in my girl. Taking things apart to see how they work. Competition. I read her books about dinosaurs, etc.
Sure, me too. If she's gonna be learning "guy things" then I want to be the go-to teacher. Besides my spouse doesn't appear to appreciate the importance of (or prefers to outsource) life skills like resonant eructation, physical intimidation, how to take a hit and keep going, soldering, unclogging toilets, identifying/killing bugs, installing WinXP software, testing the anti-lock brakes, and lighting the BBQ charcoal.

But for me, first there's that carbon-copy-of-my-mother thing. She has my exact temperament & tolerance (or lack thereof). We each know exactly how to push each other's buttons because they're all the same buttons. If my mother was still alive I can only imagine the multi-generational fireworks.

Second I'm apparently extremely gullible. I don't know how many times I've gone to Wal-Mart thinking that we were going to enter, locate an item on the list, put it in the cart, proceed to the checkout, and thence to the car & home. (You women are reading this and thinking "What is he talking about?!?" You guys are thinking "Yup, he's toast.") Now our house actually has separate vocabulary to differentiate the situations of "shopping" from "buying". Spouse drives for the former, I drive for the latter.

Third is my lack of preparation for women's vicious psychological warfare. Our kid understands physical interaction like martial arts or basketball so we speak a common language there, but when I was a teen I never laid awake nights worrying about which kid I was going to be spending time with at school or whether my teacher liked me or how to handle various relationship crises. It's so much easier & simpler with guys when you beat the snot out of each other and get over it. With girls, even grrrrls, it's apparently way too complicated for my comprehension. ("Yup, he's toast.") At least spouse has taught me the difference between problem-solving and supportive listening.

I think the things that make girls easier to raise include:
- She's extremely verbal. I don't think our kid can contain an unexpressed thought for more than a few minutes. I never have trouble with communication barriers, or at least identifying them.
- She seems pretty aware of her surroundings and very sensitive to other people. She can get locked into an activity or even become oblivious, but it doesn't persist to the point of physical danger. As a grownup remembering my teen years, I'm glad I don't have to contend with the way I was ("Hunh? What? Ouch!!").
- She tends to discuss things first instead of just going out and doing them. Three decades ago most of my teen discussions involved helpful phrases like "Now apologize to the firefighters" and "What were you thinking?"
- Personal hygiene has neither required nor desired my presence nor my involvement. She's neater & cleaner than the opposite sex. Her bedroom doesn't smell like a toxic-waste dump and she actually organizes possessions.
- There's no competition for alpha male supremacy. We all know that my spouse rules the house and I come in a close fourth, right behind the pet bunny.

Finally, I think it's much easier for me to teach her about what's going on in a guy's head (not that it's so hard to figure out) than it would be for me to get together with other males-- of any age with any libation-- and exchange information about what's going on inside a girl's head. ("Yup, he's toast.") If I'd solved that latter mystery, would I be a parent right now?
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 02:33 AM   #30
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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"Follow the child" works great when there's a teacher who mixes different styles to find out what suits the kids-- "sit at your desk and read", kinesthetic problem solving, computer games, groups, independent study, whatever
Let's see (thumbs through Montessori manual....)

All intelligences and styles of learning—musical, bodily-kinesthetic, spatial, interpersonal, intrapersonal, intuitive, natural, and the traditional linguistic and logical-mathematical—are nurtured and respected

Quote:
-- and finds something that hits every kid's learning buttons at least once during the day.
Screw that.* *Give the kids access to a bunch of materials, show them a few highlights, then get out of their way and let them push their own buttons all day long.

I don't remember a damn thing from school except for those things that picqued my interest and that I followed-up on.* * Thanks to the internet, I can still do that in my old age without having an on-site library.

Anyway, I have no clue what it takes to be an uberscientist.* *Maybe somebody can interview a bunch of them, distill their essence, and then kids can determine if they have the Right Stuff.

The only thing I know from my own experience is that I found science interesting, but I found that other things provided both more immediate feedback/gratification and more money.* *I'm happy to see anybody push the frontiers of science forward in the same way that I'm happy to see people join the army.

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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 10:00 AM   #31
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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Originally Posted by wab
If you watch kids develop before there is much socialization, it's clear that the sexes develop differently.
Undoubtedly true, and with wide variance within the sexes as well.

But you're saying you and your friends and family members dont socialize with your child?

We're some of your girls first gifts tanks and fire trucks and camoflage/nascar outfits?

We cheer and clap when Gabe successfully manages to leap from one thing to another or developes a new skill that would be considered boylike. Yet, when we were perusing toys 'r' us, I saw him grab a girls doll and hug it, and then watched my 72 year old dad scoot over and take it away, giving him a little scolding that "thats for girls!".

Its in the tv shows, movies, and wired into your family members to press and suppress certain attributes. On top of what nature gives us and in what degrees.

With both nature and nurture working together, we're obviously going to end up being very different. And end up choosing or being accepted in very different types of jobs.

And can someone tell me how to get the image of jenna jameson in a lab coat and a pair of hornrim glasses out of my head?
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 11:23 AM   #32
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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But you're saying you and your friends and family members dont socialize with your child?

We're some of your girls first gifts tanks and fire trucks and camoflage/nascar outfits?
The group I was watching was odd.* *Mostly older couples (30's and 40's) and several stay-at-home dads.* * So, yeah, even when the girls had a stronger-than-average male influence, they still developed as girls, and the boys who were influenced by politically-correct moms still developed as boys.

I just go with the flow.* *I try to expose our kid to lots of things I find interesting, and if something sticks, I try to nourish it.* *These days, it's mostly drawing, reading, making up stories, running, and music.* *Insects and mechanical things didn't really stick, although she surprised me recently by showing me a "contraption" (her word) that she built.* *Sort of a Rube Goldberg machine involving a tennis shoe, some cups, and a ball.* * I was so proud.*
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 01:06 PM   #33
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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I don't remember a damn thing from school except for those things that picqued my interest and that I followed-up on.* * Thanks to the internet, I can still do that in my old age without having an on-site library.
No kidding.* Just about every history book I read today makes me wonder where the hell I was in high school.* Our kid, born & raised in Hawaii, knows more about the Civil War than I do, and I grew up in the middle of the culture.* Yet I find myself explaining how infantry does a wheel maneuver like they performed at Devil's Den during Gettysburg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
But you're saying you and your friends and family members dont socialize with your child?
We're some of your girls first gifts tanks and fire trucks and camoflage/nascar outfits?
We cheer and clap when Gabe successfully manages to leap from one thing to another or developes a new skill that would be considered boylike.* Yet, when we were perusing toys 'r' us, I saw him grab a girls doll and hug it, and then watched my 72 year old dad scoot over and take it away, giving him a little scolding that "thats for girls!".
Between raising your kid and re-educating your parents it's like parenting two sets of children.

Isn't it strange how society cheers when girls throw a baseball, but sneers when boys play with dolls macho action figures?

We actually acquired a house full of Barbies (along with all the other toys) and they lasted just long enough to be declared "boring".* The contrast between our kid and her girly-girl friends is at opposite ends of the bell curve.* In fact if our high school does something stupid like declaring "dresses only" for the prom, then our kid's probably gonna go straight to the ACLU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute Fuzzy Bunny
And can someone tell me how to get the image of jenna jameson in a lab coat and a pair of hornrim glasses out of my head?
Sure, but why would you want to mess up a good deal like that one?
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 01:42 PM   #34
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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Yet I find myself explaining how infantry does a wheel maneuver like they performed at Devil's Den during Gettysburg.
The maneuver you are describing was at Little Roundtop.* Devil's Den is down at the base of the hills.* Devil' Den is on the same side of the battlefiled but wasn't really a factor in that action as I recall.* I remember that when looking down the hill you couldn't see Devil's Den.

Now, Devil's Den is real interesting.* After the battle, they found the son of the governor of Alabama (I think, it could have been Georgia) who was a sniper.* There are pictures of Union troops displaying his body like a landed fish.* I doubt they show those anymore.

When I was little I was all over the battlefield.* We'd dig for bullets with little shovels.* I remember that there were many copperheads inside Devil's Den.* I know they don't let people dig on the battlefield anymore -- every year or so some idiot would find a cannon ball and it would explode.* They probably don't even let you go inside Devil's Den.

I lived near an old, old man who was with his father hauling milk the morning of the battle.* He had a Union musket that he or his father carried off the field.* He was over 100 when he passed away.* He had some interesting stories plus a nice apple orchard.

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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 04:37 PM   #35
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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Between raising your kid and re-educating your parents it's like parenting two sets of children.
Dont even get me started.

I have a 16 month old going on 5 and a 72 year old going on 7.

The other day we went to one of the local parks. My dad takes the baby and sticks him in a fountain, soaking him. I have no change of clothes. His diaper now weighs 15lbs. I didnt bring the diaper bag either as we were only going for a half hour.

"Now how am I going to strap him into a car seat in a sopping diaper with wet clothes?"

Today we're enjoying a slice of pizza, the baby wants some of my dads bottled water, which is in a sports bottle with the pop up top. So he puts the top in the babys mouth, then decides its a good idea to give the bottle a nice firm squeeze.

What do you suppose happened then? Hint: more than one bad thing.
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 05:14 PM   #36
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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The maneuver you are describing was at Little Roundtop. Devil's Den is down at the base of the hills.
%$#^ it, failed the quiz again.

My FIL says we should hire a guide for our upcoming Gettysburg visit. I can just imagine tramping through fields in 100-degree heat & humidity sandwiched between the NPS expert on one side and our little Shelby Foote Jr. on the other... do they serve beer in the Visitor's Center?

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My dad takes the baby and sticks him in a fountain, soaking him.* I have no change of clothes.
So he puts the top in the babys mouth, then decides its a good idea to give the bottle a nice firm squeeze.
That's not juvenile behavior, that's parental vengeance via the third generation...
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 05:20 PM   #37
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

Well, its not vengeance when I have to tell my dad to pipe down because his antics and noises are disturbing the other people in the store/restaurant.

Does keep the baby amused though...
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 05:52 PM   #38
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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%$#^ it, failed the quiz again.*

My FIL says we should hire a guide for our upcoming Gettysburg visit.* I can just imagine tramping through fields in 100-degree heat & humidity sandwiched between the NPS expert on one side and our little Shelby Foote Jr. on the other... do they serve beer in the Visitor's Center?
Nords---

I don't know if they serve beer at the visitor's center. I don't remember a vistor's center. Of course, they wouldn't have served me beer anyway.

Go in July and enjoy the battleground like they did in 1863. The view from Cemetery Ridge is awe inspiring as is the opposing Conferate view at the start of Pickett's Charge.

You'll see lots of signs showing you where hundreds of men were killed charging stone fences and massed cannon. It's hard to believe anyone could do that.

In 1913 they had a 50 year reunion of the men who fought there. Because they were worried about fights breaking out (remember there couldn't have been anyone under 63 there and most were 70 or above) they put the Union and Conferate campsites (yes, they made these old men camp out in July) several miles apart. There were no fights.
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 06:17 PM   #39
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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Go in July and enjoy the battleground like they did in 1863.* The view from Cemetery Ridge is awe inspiring as is the opposing Conferate view at the start of Pickett's Charge.
I've watched Daniel Martinez show us his "Undiscovered History" episode on Gettysburg. I think I'm going to fondly remember the video experience more than I'll enjoy the tramping-around-under-the-hot-sun experience. I'm quite familiar with the weather in that area... which is why we arranged to visit right around the middle of July. Gosh, I hope we don't get chilly.

It's the kid's school schedule. She doesn't get out until the 23rd of June and there was no way we were gonna blunder across Gettysburg or DC during the 4th of July. But she starts 9th grade at the end of July so we're cramming it all into a fun-filled action-packed two weeks. Spouse and I haven't been back to this area since 1992.

But we'll be visiting USNA with a shipmate from way back who's now living in one of those fancy senior officer's houses that we used to have to visit to practice our etiquette. Our kid will get to see Plebe Summer at its finest and decide whether or not she's really smarter than her parents. My BIL the CPA and his wife will spend a weekend there with us and then help us with the Smithsonian Death March the following week. My nephew the Army Ranger will drop in for a USNA weekend and then leave for his summer training-- which ironically will involve house-sitting our place while he's working with a Schofield Barracks unit. This could turn out to be the vacation of the decade.

I think our next four years of vacations will all have college themes, and May 2007 will probably be West Point for my nephew's graduation. It should all be pretty interesting... and sweaty.
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?
Old 05-28-2006, 09:16 PM   #40
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Re: Why aren't there more women science professors?

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Originally Posted by Nords
I've watched Daniel Martinez show us his "Undiscovered History" episode on Gettysburg.* I think I'm going to fondly remember the video experience more than I'll enjoy the tramping-around-under-the-hot-sun experience.*
My grandfather took me there regularly until 5th grade. I don't really remember the weather being that hot. We then moved to New Mexico so my concept of "hot" was quickly altered. I do remember laying in sweat in my Pennsylvania bedroom with my brother during heat waves.

I'd love to go back and walk the battlefield. I'm sure it won't be anything like I remember. I probably won't be able to go and do the things I remember. I'm also sure it's now a "sacred monument" little kids aren't allowed to run, explore and learn. If nothing else, President Eisenhower won't be at his farm. I think that's now a national monument or his library or something.

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