Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-11-2010, 08:18 AM   #61
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by kumquat View Post
It is "she can vote and most of the time contract."


I'm guessing here but, can you be competent enough to vote but not to sign a contract.

Actually that's not quite true assuming the individual was not declared "incompetent" by the court system.

My adult disabled son is on SSD, votes, and can enter contracts (and has done so, for his apartment).

However, he cannot receive direct SSD payments. The SSA administration names a third party (representative payee) to be responsible for the spending of those funds. This named person does not have to be a relative, but a person that looks after the interests of an individual (such as a lawyer/trust).

I'm also responsible to submit to an annual audit of how the funds were spent, including year to year savings (if any - that never happens; his living expenses are much higher than the SSD benefit is).

Even though being recognized by the SSA as disabled, from a legal standpoint since he is an adult and not declared incompetent by a court of law, he can enter into formal contracts with no counter-signature (one of the reasons I don't allow payment for internet in his apartment).

It's a slippery slope if you start trying to declare if somebody is competent based solely on their disability. Even a "single type disability" contains many variations (as my son, who is a high-functioning autistic) and to limit their life based upon a "tag" would really be a problem from the legal view (Martha can comment on my view).

IOW, you are "legally competent" until considered by the courts not to be....
__________________

__________________
rescueme is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-11-2010, 09:23 AM   #62
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,373
Interesting how this thread has moved from the OP re "will the masses jump on the LBYM bandwagon and spoil the magic of it for those who have been riding it for a long time" (at least that's what I think the OP's message is--or else we need a poll about Metallica ) to benefits for disabled people. Love these forums.

As someone who has several very smart grifters and grifter wannabes in the family tree, I find it so sad that these people always know exactly how to get what they need (both within and outside the gummint safety nets), or at least act like they do. We keep our distance from them, but my heart goes out to the people Martha talks about and of course rescueme's son. No solutions, just saying.
__________________

__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 09:35 AM   #63
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,970
Beyond the hijack aspect, it's interesting to me that the Kuran/Quran burning thread was shut down while this one persists in it's current direction...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 09:42 AM   #64
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Beyond the hijack aspect, it's interesting to me that the Kuran/Quran burning thread was shut down while this one persists in it's current direction...
Maybe it has something to do with the shut down thread having absolutely no link to anything involving finances/retirement/investing, purely politics and religion.

But that's just a guess.
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 11:08 AM   #65
Recycles dryer sheets
Gerbil Wheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 83
Well the Jimmy Buffett/Metallica analogy turned out to be bit of a red herring in hindsight...like others have said, it costs nothing to join popular bandwagons (other than perhaps the price of admission).

But many of the responses hit on the intended query; that is, will the masses embrace LBYM with an eye towards FI or RE as a result of the structural/secular changes underway in the economy.

Time will tell...I do believe the Millennials will drive the eventual trend for the most part.

Check out a book called The Fourth Turning...the premise is fascinating.
__________________
Gerbil Wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 11:22 AM   #66
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 3,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestwifeever View Post
Interesting how this thread has moved.
A giant tree doesn’t only have one branch ...
__________________
rescueme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 11:45 AM   #67
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Indialantic FL
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by aida2003 View Post
No, I don't believe LBYM will become a new mantra in this country anytime soon.
I think LBYM has been a mantra for a small percentage of the population all along, I think the percentage of the population that lives LBYM has increased and will continue to increase. IMO, a significant percentage of the population has had a wake up call. I think the tea party movement is one outlet for this new found economic awareness, albeit a political one. My bet is that future growth in consumer spending will be anemic for years to come.
__________________
JimnJana
"The four most dangerous words in investing are 'This time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton
jimnjana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 12:05 PM   #68
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,962
While tangential at best, much like the topic of balancing the budget, the devil is in the details. What is "constitutional"? Who is "disabled"? What is in the "national interest"? How do we promote the "general welfare"? What "provides for the common defense"?

But back on topic, it could be that we have a reset toward LBYM, and a distrust of the stock market, much like after the Great Depression. Or not...
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 03:54 PM   #69
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestwifeever View Post
Interesting how this thread has moved from the OP re "will the masses jump on the LBYM bandwagon and spoil the magic of it for those who have been riding it for a long time"
Actually, anything at all would have been an improvement on that idea.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 06:51 PM   #70
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,929
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Galt III View Post
Wow! Didn't think I would offend or insult anyone anyone on this board with my post. It was perhaps a trenchantly worded post, I admit. And perhaps politically incorrect. But the truth is the truth. Lots of people game the Welfare / Disability system, with its many programs, for financial gain and to avoid working. Those of us who do not come into personal contact with this reality may choose to pretend it is not there.
Just a reminder that lots of people who have been on welfare DON'T game the system, but are simply using it as a survival net.

I have a brother who lives in a small town where the major employer was a sawmill. The mill shut down, which had a nasty cascading effect on the entire town, as millworkers stopped spending, which caused small businesses supplying the workers and mill to fail, which unemployed more people, etc. Unemployment in the town reached about 40%.

The usual response I hear from those in love with ideological solutions is that these folks should just move and get new jobs elsewhere. OK. Know of any big sawmills that are hiring and willing to pay something to help with relocation? Any sort of heavy industrial businesses that are doing lots of hiring? No, in the US, please.

A lot of these folks were just scraping by. They can't come up with moving expense money plus first and last months rent. They're trying, looking for work, doing odd jobs, off-the-books work from weeding to farm labor, and about the only thing getting them food on the table is that welfare WIC card (modern food stamps). A fair number need medical care. (Work in a sawmill for 30-40 years and see how your pulmonary function holds up.)

Yes, I know that back in the Ayn Rand School for Tots we were all taught that "A is A" and "Helping is Futile", but we don't use the treadmill and workhouses any more. I'd rather get these folks some retraining and assistance to get back on their feet. The local welfare program gets these folks some food, a few hundred a month to cover expenses, and hooks them up with one of several training and relocation services operated by various charities.
__________________
M Paquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2010, 08:58 PM   #71
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimnjana View Post
I think the percentage of the population that lives LBYM has increased and will continue to increase. IMO, a significant percentage of the population has had a wake up call.
Personally, I agree with FIREdreamer, Joshua and rescueme: being unable to spend money you don't have - because no one will give you credit - is not the same thing as making a conscious, voluntary decision to diligently put aside part of the money you do have.


Human beings have surprisingly short memories. Greed, stupidity and laziness are commonplace. When credit becomes available again, I suspect that many people will abandon the new religion and resume their free-spending ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aida2003 View Post
I don't believe it will [stick] because it was not as painful as the Great Depression.
Agree. The recent recesssion was nothing compared to the Depression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Paquette View Post
The usual response I hear from those in love with ideological solutions is that these folks should just move and get new jobs elsewhere. OK. Know of any big sawmills that are hiring and willing to pay something to help with relocation? Any sort of heavy industrial businesses that are doing lots of hiring? No, in the US, please.
Some truth to this. It's also true that many government-funded retraining schemes are rather unrealistic (there is a limited market for newly-minted 54-year-old computer programmers).


On the other hand, people (especially young people) have to be realistic about their own situations, and read the writing on the wall. One can no longer drop out of school and expect to get the sort of unskilled or semi-skilled, unionized job that one's father or mother enjoyed. Globalization has changed things (and for the better).
__________________
"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive". Robert Louis Stevenson, An Inland Voyage (1878)
Milton is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 06:39 AM   #72
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Erie
Posts: 22
First off, thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread. I've been lurking on this forum since last May (joined in June) and this is one of the reasons I continue to come back.

Sure, there's not much FIRE content here - but the range of opinions and, well, topics in this one thread alone are impressive. And the respect shown for each other? Coming from years of posting on online sports forums - I'm floored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton View Post
Personally, I agree with FIREdreamer, Joshua and rescueme: being unable to spend money you don't have - because no one will give you credit - is not the same thing as making a conscious, voluntary decision to diligently put aside part of the money you do have.

Human beings have surprisingly short memories. Greed, stupidity and laziness are commonplace. When credit becomes available again, I suspect that many people will abandon the new religion and resume their free-spending ways.

Agree. The recent recesssion was nothing compared to the Depression.
I agree with this. One thing that the recent recession has that the Depression didn't is advertising-run media. (Can't think of a better term.) Everything - television, radio, internet - throws in your face how much better your life will be if you don't LBYM (or at least ignore it).

I wore hand-me-downs until high school, when I bought my own clothes. Me and my siblings not only bought our first vehicles, we paid for insurance. If we couldn't afford it, there was always the bus. (And I took a bus 12 miles to classes in my second year of college while living with my parents.)

Forget about "peer pressure". The "media pressure" to do the opposite of LBYM (LAYM?) is enough to stem any mass change in this country.
__________________
dfdski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 07:38 AM   #73
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,072
This is an emotional topic for many people. They seem to either latch on to the emotions of:

"How dare you kick the poor,needy, and down-trodden unfortunates of society"

Or

"Bums at best, criminals at worst"


Unfortunately we have both and there is no effective way to sort them out.

I think we all would agree that the people that game the system should be cut-off.

One of the most prevalent forms of the fraud is to work for cash and collect benefits.

Another common scam is for the woman and children to get on welfare and the (ne'er-do-well boyfriend or ex-husband move in the section 8 house and hold down a job). I read once about a guy getting a divorce and abandoning the family (on paper) so the family would get welfare and he would work.

This does happen... more than you might think! But it is not fair to paint all with that brush.
__________________
chinaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 08:10 AM   #74
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Indialantic FL
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton View Post
Personally, I agree with FIREdreamer, Joshua and rescueme: being unable to spend money you don't have - because no one will give you credit - is not the same thing as making a conscious, voluntary decision to diligently put aside part of the money you do have.

Human beings have surprisingly short memories. Greed, stupidity and laziness are commonplace. When credit becomes available again, I suspect that many people will abandon the new religion and resume their free-spending ways. .
Not disagreeing, just pointing out that a shift from saving more has not happened yet, and the trend appears to be intact.

BEA : Personal Saving Rate
__________________
JimnJana
"The four most dangerous words in investing are 'This time it's different.'" - Sir John Templeton
jimnjana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 09:17 AM   #75
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaco View Post
.............
Another common scam is for the woman and children to get on welfare and the (ne'er-do-well boyfriend or ex-husband move in the section 8 house and hold down a job)..............
I saw way too much of this when I was working for Habitat for Humanity. I finally got tired of working on houses for able bodied people that had more household income than I did.

Too bad, 'cause most of the clients really did deserve and appreciate a break.
__________________
Yes, I have achieved work / life balance.
travelover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 10:21 AM   #76
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaco View Post
This is an emotional topic for many people. They seem to either latch on to the emotions of:

"How dare you kick the poor,needy, and down-trodden unfortunates of society"

Or

"Bums at best, criminals at worst"

Since most have us have spent our entiure lives in a welfare society of one degree or another, our baseline assumption is that we should provide for others, that they are somehow the responsibility of those who are doing OK. This is really a very new idea in societies, and I believe it is an idea on the way out. I believe the first state sponsored or mandated welfare provisions were relatively small, and mostly directed at industrial workers in Germany, maybe 120-130 years ago. The real kick-off came after WW2 when Britain's voters kicked out Churchill and the Tories and elected a Labor government. Perhaps coincidentally their economy trended down until the dark bottom in the early 70s. What finally financed the UK welfare system was North Sea oil and gas. With that beginning to wind down, it remains to be seen what will happen. One way or another, the UK standard of living will decrease, as will ours here in the US for similar reasons.

Victorian England was a very prosperous country, a prosperous empire really, yet people starved. Starving people in western countries today would be hard to find, unless a 240 pound food stamp recipient might be considered to be starving.

I certainly do not know, and I may be too far along in life to see the playout, but my guess is that attitudes are hardening about a hard working productive class being forced to support a permanent underclass. I would say that at present, an unspoken motivation to continue current measures is to avoid violence against people and property. In other words, a protection racket.

The same pressures will affect those of us who are retired. As various economists have pointed out, once you are retired, no matter how much money you might have saved, your consumption of goods and services necessarily comes from the current production of goods and services in the economy. Since the most able sectors of the US and most other western economies have gone on a baby strike, I think things are certainly not looking max rosy.

This doesn't necessarily have to work out well, does it?

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 10:45 AM   #77
Moderator Emeritus
Martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: minnesota
Posts: 13,212
Yes Ha, it doesn't necessarily work well. And I think we have a culture of wishful thinking. If only so and so is elected all will be ok. If only we return to our xyz values all will be ok. If only people would apply themselves they will get work. I'll play the lottery but I won't wear sunscreen. And our worries are often worries that have no real utility. Gay marriage. Content of the pledge of allegiance. School prayer. Flag burning. Location of Mosques. Instead of saving your money, taking care of your health, and keeping your own skills up to date so you can be agile, mobile and hostile, as Uncle Mick would say.

Anyone read Amazon.com: Bright-sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America eBook: Barbara Ehrenreich: Kindle Store I just got the book but haven't read it yet. She claims we have as a society a reckless penchant for self delusion.

Nevertheless, I engage in self delusion. It helps me sleep at night.
__________________
.


No more lawyer stuff, no more political stuff, so no more CYA

Martha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 11:14 AM   #78
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,384
Martha, thanks for mentioning this book. I reserved it at the library. It will take a while, but I think it will be worth it.
I hope you will report on it after you have had a chance to read it over.

I have been reading Victorian fiction. The heavy reality of moral choice, and also of chance, seems to have been part of everyday Victorian. consciousness. They seem to understand that tragedies and injustices will happen, and they will likely not be made right.


I agree with you that we Americans tend to be deluded. And if our delusions ever do get challenged, the media will help us restore them quickly enough.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 12:55 PM   #79
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,070
I haven't read Bright-sided, but I usually find Barbara Ehrenreich to be worthwhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
This is really a very new idea in societies ... I believe the first state sponsored or mandated welfare provisions were relatively small, and mostly directed at industrial workers in Germany, maybe 120-130 years ago. The real kick-off came after WW2 when Britain's voters kicked out Churchill and the Tories and elected a Labor government.
Certainly the modern welfare state is a recent creation, but the idea of tax revenue being spent to provide (very) basic necessities for the sick and needy is not new. For example, the English poor law system dates back to Elizabethan times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
Victorian England was a very prosperous country, a prosperous empire really, yet people starved.
Quite correct, on both accounts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I would say that at present, an unspoken motivation to continue current measures is to avoid violence against people and property. In other words, a protection racket.
Perhaps. But a bigger motivation for wealth transfers is simple vote-buying.

Personally, I don't worry or think about this topic very much. I'm sure that most (all?) welfare systems are imperfect, but of course that's true of every human creation. And it is good to know that support is there for people who genuinely need it (which I hope will never include any of us, but one never knows).

Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
Victorian. consciousness ... seem(s) to understand that tragedies and injustices will happen, and they will likely not be made right.
Cf. Mrs. Jellyby!
__________________

__________________
"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive". Robert Louis Stevenson, An Inland Voyage (1878)
Milton is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anyone Read Harry Dent's "The Great Depression Ahead"? novaman Other topics 2 09-21-2009 06:53 AM
Great article "Ten Reasons You Aren't Rich" Surfdaddy FIRE and Money 5 03-24-2007 01:19 AM
Medicaid............not the "great benefit" you think it is............ FinanceDude Health and Early Retirement 13 02-14-2007 09:32 PM
"Global Giving" - Great website for donating to good causes - thoughts? justin Other topics 3 06-30-2006 10:47 AM
Should you pass up a "great deal"? Nords FIRE and Money 12 07-24-2004 03:33 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:16 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.