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Old 05-21-2011, 06:40 PM   #41
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Thank you, that helps a lot to understand. I have myself been in situations where I have tried to give constructive criticism to people and sometimes they have plenty of excuses and just cannot hear what I am telling them in a way they can get past their excuses. Since there are several people who suggested my behavior warrants dismissal, which would be a great concern to me, I do want to try to understand what those posters are telling me, even though my own excuses are still pretty loud in my head.

I did crash this meeting. I do remember the problem and know how to fix it and I didn't remind them what worked last time, though I do think they should have known it. It was on their slide set! I did tell them other good ideas. I did arrange to make the fix. I have given this place too much already. I don't know what the right thing to do is.

I cannot yet say I hate my new incompetent boss. I hardly know the guy and am alarmed by what I have seen, but I'm trying to hold off on judgment until I can at least talk to him a few times. I am letting the company expend resources unnecessarily as they have 2 guys spending 2 weeks cataloging ideas, but who am I to say they won't come up with an even better one. However in my defense, I had no idea they were going to do that and I only learned of it unofficially and I cannot think of any way to curtail it, short of saying "you don't need to do that, all 3 of the ideas I gave you are winners, and remember, there's an even better one we did last time" That sounds offensively arrogant to me.
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:11 PM   #42
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Clearly I do not understand why I should be fired for this.
Insubordination.

You're just not getting it. You're trying to justify your bad behavior and your bad attitude. You try to come across as if the company would fold without your expertise. I would have put up with you for about four hours and then pulled your badge and sent you out the door.

I understand why there is going to be a reorg. The "not my job" and "I know more than my boss" folks will be the first to go. The stovepipes will be eliminated and it will take less people to run the business.

And that's why they brought in new management without asking permission from the employees.
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:38 PM   #43
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East Texas does make a good point. If they brought in new management without talking to the workers as they have in the past, it may be they want to do some house cleaning. In which case it is easier if familiarity is not a part of the equation. That is another reason to see your immediate supervisor and suggest a solution. It just may leave a good impression when he is trying to figure out who is going to get walking papers. If that is not the case, and they are not contemplating layoffs then you have really lost nothing.
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:40 PM   #44
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Insubordination.
Not to nitpick (OK, maybe it is nitpicky), but what he is doing is not really insubordination: "Insubordination is the act of a subordinate deliberately disobeying a lawful order." Insubordination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He may not be totally forthcoming with information he has in regard to solving the problem, but he wasn't ordered to fix it, so he's not disobeying an order.
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Old 05-21-2011, 07:55 PM   #45
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You used Wiki as a source? Really? Try Webster next time.
Definition of INSUBORDINATE

: disobedient to authority

insubordinate noun
in·sub·or·di·nate·ly adverb
in·sub·or·di·na·tion \-ˌbȯr-də-ˈnā-shən\ noun

See insubordinate defined for English-language learners »

Examples of INSUBORDINATE
  1. His behavior was unprofessional and insubordinate.
  2. the junior officer was court-martialed for being insubordinate
First Known Use of INSUBORDINATE

circa 1828
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:03 PM   #46
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Definition of INSUBORDINATE

: disobedient to authority

insubordinate noun
in·sub·or·di·nate·ly adverb
in·sub·or·di·na·tion \-ˌbȯr-də-ˈnā-shən\ noun

See insubordinate defined for English-language learners »

Examples of INSUBORDINATE
  1. His behavior was unprofessional and insubordinate.
  2. the junior officer was court-martialed for being insubordinate
First Known Use of INSUBORDINATE

circa 1828
Even by your definition he hasn't been insubordinate.
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:06 PM   #47
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He may not be totally forthcoming with information he has in regard to solving the problem, but he wasn't ordered to fix it, so he's not disobeying an order.
He's insubordinate.
  • He's talking trash about his new boss and I guarantee you he's minimally following instructions at best.
  • He's not offering solutions he knows about to customer problems.
Of those of us with years of management experience - if you take a poll right (fire or keep), the consensus would be to fire.
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:14 PM   #48
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He's insubordinate.
  • He's talking trash about his new boss and I guarantee you he's minimally following instructions at best.
  • He's not offering solutions he knows about to customer problems.
Of those of us with years of management experience - if you take a poll right (fire or keep), the consensus would be to fire.
He might be talking trash, but he's doing it on this forum, not at work. And he's withholding info, but that's not insurbordination. If he were fired for "insubordination" a good labor lawyer could easily get him his job back with backpay.

And, "... I guarantee you he's minimally following instructions at best" is just an assumption on your part.
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:17 PM   #49
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Of those of us with years of management experience
Haaaahahahahaha!!!

Go back to the corner office and remain frigging clueless for a few years.

To OP:

You can stay there and see how it goes, but I would be willing to bet that in 6 months' time you will wish you had split sooner. Were I in your shoes, I would start looking.
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:51 PM   #50
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Maybe re-phrase things to help understand....

Let's say you are driving through the desert in Nevada, and it's 200 miles to the next little town. You see a mom and her kids stuck on the side of the road, and obviously they have run out of gas. You just happen to have a siphon kit in your car, but you don't want to stop because you'll be late for your flight.

Do you stop anyway, knowing you might miss your flight and have to deal with the airline?

Or, since you have no legal obligation to help, do you let the lady deal with it herself, hoping that she can get help from someone else?
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Old 05-21-2011, 08:58 PM   #51
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Maybe re-phrase things to help understand....

Let's say you are driving through the desert in Nevada, and it's 200 miles to the next little town. You see a mom and her kids stuck on the side of the road, and obviously they have run out of gas. You just happen to have a siphon kit in your car, but you don't want to stop because you'll be late for your flight.

Do you stop anyway, knowing you might miss your flight and have to deal with the airline?

Or, since you have no legal obligation to help, do you let the lady deal with it herself, hoping that she can get help from someone else?
Neither. You call 911 on your cell phone.
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Old 05-21-2011, 09:05 PM   #52
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It is easy to see who on this board is/were Management and who is/were Labor.

It also confirms my general assessment of Management in the US as mostly in need of a glass belly button. Loyalty is only one-way. Communication is only one-way.

Once again, I am so glad that I am a contractor.
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Old 05-21-2011, 09:35 PM   #53
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It is easy to see who on this board is/were Management and who is/were Labor.

It also confirms my general assessment of Management in the US as mostly in need of a glass belly button. Loyalty is only one-way. Communication is only one-way.

Once again, I am so glad that I am a contractor.
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Old 05-21-2011, 09:37 PM   #54
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We all come with a basket of experiences and attitudes. This is an example of something you wrote that highlighted this:
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I cannot seem to emphasize enough, this is NOT my area of responsibility and I only accidentally got involved in the first place. It is not my job and has never been any part of my job, and I really don't think I deserve to be fired for failing to do someone else's job on my own time after hours.
In places I've worked, if I get called into a meeting to discuss a problem, then somebody is paying me to be in that meeting. My job at that point is to contribute. If I have a constructive idea, I offer it. I don't care if it's about the situation in my department, in another department, or in a part of the company clear across the country. If they take my suggestion, that's great--it's satisfying, isn't it? If they want me to implement the fix, it means they think I'm the best person to do it AND it's more important to the company than what I was doing.

I've never said "that's not my job" unless someone was trying to use my time in a way that wasn't in keeping with what my boss wanted. And that seems to me to be the best way to say it: "I've got other things I'm already expected to accomplish. I can work on your project if my boss gives the okay." But, like most people (including you, from what you've written) I do try to help folks do their jobs, just as I'd appreciate their assistance with mine. If they can "waste" two minutes explaining a better way of doing something, and that saves me 2 hours, then I doubt anybody's boss is going to be upset by how the time was used. But I know people feel differently about this.

Ultimately, anyone who says "that's not my job" is entirely correct. The job "belongs" to the company. They made the job, they can eliminate it, and they can fill it with whoever they choose. It truly is their job.
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Old 05-21-2011, 10:26 PM   #55
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In the industries that I have worked, I have found that I can do most things better than those who have been assigned to do them. I can do anything; but I do not see why I should do everything. I have also found that those who need help the most do not understand that they need it at all and my input is unwelcome.

As a contractor, my role is now well-defined. I am not married to a company and they do not expect me to be. They get my best work, I get out of the car and then they drive the car off a cliff. I remember when I was expected to stay in the car and listen to management self-delusional rhetoric. And they want the workers to take drug tests!
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Old 05-21-2011, 10:48 PM   #56
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You can stay there and see how it goes, but I would be willing to bet that in 6 months' time you will wish you had split sooner. Were I in your shoes, I would start looking.
I had this experience elsewhere and it was six months of hell I hope not to repeat. I'm just too optimistic to assume it's happening again, but there is a real possibility that that is what I'm in for.

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In places I've worked, if I get called into a meeting to discuss a problem, then somebody is paying me to be in that meeting. My job at that point is to contribute. If I have a constructive idea, I offer it.
This seems like a more accessible explanation of what people seem to think I have done wrong here. And I will think about that. Of course I wasn't called into the meeting, I crashed it, so there are some political overtones of just how much was I expected to speak up. I did offer several viable solutions and volunteered to implement them on my own time. What I didn't do was offer the solution I think is best, but rather observed that others were not offering it either. In any case, I have not been assigned to do anything about this problem, yet I will be solving it (at least for about a year) before work Monday and before anyone else does anything about it, except the 2 guys making lists. I did offer this suggestion to the people actually responsible for the machine after the meeting, and they seemed happy to take me up on it. By the way, my new boss is also not responsible for the factory floor. I'm not sure I understand why he has people making lists, but then he hasn't said anything to me about that either.

Quote:
He might be talking trash, but he's doing it on this forum, not at work.
Good grief, of course I am not talking down the new boss at work. Nor anyone else. I cannot very well tell the story here without describing the guy, but I would NOT and HAVE NOT said anything like that at work. I'm trying to say what I think, but I'm also saying I'm not set in this judgment, because I've hardly even met the guy.

Quote:
In the industries that I have worked, I have found that I can do most things better than those who have been assigned to do them. I can do anything; but I do not see why I should do everything. I have also found that those who need help the most do not understand that they need it at all and my input is unwelcome.
Maybe this is indicating that I am no longer feeling a welcome part of this company and I should look for contracting work. At least then I will get paid for whatever efforts I do make and I will not be doing things except at the request of someone who presumably will appreciate if I actually do them. I hate to concede that they are killing my attitude, since I'm normally a super positive guy.

I am honestly surprised how many people think I should be in trouble (perhaps terminated, even) because I didn't push more aggressively into another department's business. I've been treading lightly about this at work, because I rather more expected a potential problem with being too meddlesome. Normally we don't encourage folks from accounting to be ON the factory floor, let alone reprogramming the machines. I did my best last time to get the okay of the supervisors on the floor and I will do the same this time.
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Old 05-21-2011, 11:00 PM   #57
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None of us were there, and you know what happened at the meeting better than any of us do. We also are not as familiar with the organizational culture there as you are. This is a very complex situation. I would take what has been posted on this thread under consideration, but with a grain of salt.
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Old 05-21-2011, 11:09 PM   #58
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Thanks. I do appreciate the feedback I have gotten, though it wasn't at all what I expected.

What I had hoped to solicit was advice and experience on how to deal with needing a few more years working (and saving) in a work environment that looks like it will deteriorate. How can that be made tolerable? Can it? If it becomes intolerable, how much trouble will I be in if I bail at a few years shy of my original ER goal. Is there anything I can do to try to make it more likely that a deteriorating situation can be salvaged enough, like maybe just reminding myself there's light at the end of a few years and take it one day at a time. I don't know. Wisdom from anonymous strangers who may have been in similar situations before me.
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Old 05-21-2011, 11:15 PM   #59
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What I had hoped to solicit was advice and experience on how to deal with needing a few more years working (and saving) in a work environment that looks like it will deteriorate. How can that be made tolerable? Can it? If it becomes intolerable, how much trouble will I be in if I bail at a few years shy of my original ER goal. Is there anything I can do to try to make it more likely that a deteriorating situation can be salvaged enough, like maybe just reminding myself there's light at the end of a few years and take it one day at a time. I don't know. Wisdom from anonymous strangers who may have been in similar situations before me.
I somehow managed to work in a bad work environment for six years by focusing on the paycheck, and figuring that they were paying me for putting up with the baloney more than for doing the job. Hope that helps. Just count your money and keep your head down, and let the baloney bounce off you (or fall off like water off a duck's back, if you are lucky).

In my case, after 6 years I was completely stunned to find out that my best friend was going to become my supervisor, after the Supervisor From Hades got promoted. After that, work was a breeze.

I would encourage you to retire on your own schedule, when you are ready and feel your nestegg is what you want it to be. Some people cannot do that because of layoffs, etc, but you can. By doing this, you are not surrendering control of your retirement date to them (so you won't have to resent them for decades for messing up your plans).

You don't have that long to go before ER, which is why I am not suggesting that you quit. Changing jobs (and possibly moving or taking other financial hits) could set your date back a few years. Plus, if you have a pension that would be affected.
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Old 05-22-2011, 12:11 AM   #60
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This thread has been facinating as to how things work in megacorp in the USA. I am indeed grateful that I work as an independent contactor and only have to pay the occasional lipservice to management - and occasional private headshake when they get things so badly wrong. It seems as though good management of people is a much scarcer resource than I had assumed.

I like W2R's advice - try and hang in there and hopefully the new boss will find his feet - it sounds from your description as though he places great emphasis on trouble shooting and this may reflect his past history. In the end we are all products of our past experiences.
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