Wow! Quitting a Job is Difficult

[BunsGettingFirm]

I just had the most interesting talk with my manager today. Who knew that quitting a job can be such a pain in the ass especially consider that they are already laying people off left and right? It was like the Twilight Zone complete with glowering stares and veiled and not-so-veiled threats.

I proposed that I start my leave of absence within a month so that I can collect my pension. (Plan rules. You can get fired or take a leave of absence 12 months prior to your vesting date and still collect, but if you resign, you get nothing.) He said no. I need you to work on xyz. Then I proposed that I work until 3 weeks before my vesting date and take all of my vacation days until my vesting date. Sounded reasonable enough to me, but no, I need to be AT WORK on my vesting date to "sign the papers". It's as if these guys have never heard of pre-dating the papers or something. I told them, yeah, I'll be hundreds of miles away attending classes. How am I suppose to be back here, and why would I want to be back just to sign a few pieces of paper?

All of this just sounds very fishy to me. What I am most concerned is that I work my butt off for them and, at the same time, have to pack and move and do all the other stuff only to have them "fire" me for some reason. Part of me says, just forget the stupid pension because if I study for my finance exams right, I'll make all that back on my next signing bonus, and if not the next signing bonus, the one after that. Should I just hand in my two-weeks' notice? I can read my books and arrange my move, and I certainly won't have to deal with more Twilight Zone meetings.

 

[brewer12345]

I dunno. How much moolah is at stake for how much PITA? You want to be professional in how you leave, but that the same time there is no point in over-exposing yourself to a deleterious situation.

 

[Cut-Throat]

It's a 'power trip' thing! - One of the main reasons I did not like the workplace. Has little to do with work and everything to do with ego! :

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

So, by way of lessons learned for others, if you had it to do again you would have kept silent about retirement, made it past your vesting date and all other deadlines that might harm you, and then simply announce and leave at your convenience.

Seems like you tried to do the honorable thing and then were punished for it -- "last licks" kind of crap.

Oh well, it will make leaving that much sweeter .

 

[yelnad]

Your manager is jealous.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

How much money? Roughly two months pay sans any taxes or with-holdings, or roughly the price of a new economy car. Yes, it's money, but given even a so-so year in the market, I can make it back on my gains and dividends. I do lose on the fact that this sum will go into my tax-deferred accounts.

Frankly, what they are proposing will basically run me ragged. Yes, Rich_in_Tampa, let me be a case study on how low management can go, but in my case, I have no choice. My vesting date is what it is, and my other obligations are dated what they are. Trust me, if I could have simply waited for my vesting date, I would have silently waited and then jetted the day after.

 

[maddythebeagle]

Wow, I wouldnt quit even if I didnt need the money Take them to task. Maybe this thread is a good reminder to keep your plans close to your vest?---kinda similar to the threads on not explaining your financial independence to everyone...because it will only result and jealous feelings and a hand out for money and for people to want your time...

 

[Andre1969]

This isn't exactly taking the high road (but it's still probably a bit further north of the route your company is taking) but how about this? Find a way to convince the company that you've changed your mind about retiring, and want to stay on. Tell them that you've thought long and hard about it, and were hasty in your choice or whatever. But anyway, lull them into that false sense of security, and get them to really depend on you, if you can, by taking on a lot of responsibility, projects, etc.

Then, once you're past your vesting date and everything's cool, casually mention that oh, I've changed my mind, and I'm outta here. Here's my notice. Have a nice day.

 

[riskadverse]

I kept everyone informed of my plans which was good for the company, but ended up bad for me financially. If I had it to do over, I would probably try and get layed off. I imagine getting drunk a few times over the lunch hour would have made me about 50K . . . (and I'm sure they would have given me a lot of notice). It's not like you're going to need to update your reseme.

 

[elroy]

Not sure your looking for advice or just venting but here's my 2 cents. Looks like you have a solid plan for your future. Stick to it and don't worry about some pension which when you cash in on it might not amount to much. You need to be professional about quiting. Not necessarly nice. If it's too much you need to give at least a 2 week notice, work the 80 hours, and be done with it.

Elroy

 

[Papi]

Your manager is jealous.

Your manager is under 5ft 6in 

 

[Cut-Throat]

Your manager is under 5ft 6in

I had a manager exactly like this and he was 6ft. 5in. - Assholes come in all sizes!

 

[Texas Proud]

Be careful about trying to get laid off... at my company, if you are laid off for cause (drunk), you get NOTHING... not even two weeks pay.. and they fight you if you try for unemployment..

How long do you have to work to get these two months 'pay'? It sounds like another year..

It also seems you are not trying to retire, but just move to another company and then another one after that...

Finally, there is something to being there to sign papers. There was a co-worker who was out on medical leave... he was going to be laid off. Said he could come in and sign the papers so he could get his severence... they said don't worry... Well, the rules are you must be WORKING to get severence and medical leave does not count... they tried to screw him... well, a few phone calls to lawyers etc. got it fixed with not much fuss...

 

[SteveR]

I am in the Keep it Quiet camp on retirement.

My previous ER was done a few months after my vesting date. I found another job in an area I wanted to live in and gave them 2 weeks notice. They about crapped! I ducked the final HR meeting and just left the building after I was sure all the paperwork was turned in and correctly in the system.

My next one will be in 14 months; sooner if I choose but DW has 14 months left to be vested. So we wait. My boss knows I am going to split when I want but I have never given him a date...I am just vague about it and say "maybe in a couple of years, who knows?"

I plan on giving a one month notice but I don't really have to.. there is no retirement from here.....your just leave so there is nothing much to lose.

 

[youbet]

I reviewed your post again after reading the other comments and I'm not sure others have interpreted your situation correctly.  You're saying that you wish to resign and move away but you do not have enough seniority to vest your pension unless you stay longer?  Staying longer is inconvenient because of your other plans so you want to bridge the gap between your current seniority and the required seniority by either going on loa or by using vacation time?  Is that it?

What kind of loa does the company consider for bridging the gap?  personal loa?  medical loa?  educational loa?  Any or all? Makes a big difference.

When you said you could be "fired" up to one year before your vesting date and they would bridge the time, did you really mean "fired."  Perhaps you meant RIF'd?

Is there a precedence for employees being placed on ploa to bridge the gap to their vesting date?  For example, if your company's policy is to vest your pension at 5 years, are all/most people who resign after 4 years given an automatic ploa to bridge the gap?  (Effectively reducing the vesting requirement to four years.)  If that's the case, I'd call a labor attorney.  A quick call or letter to HR asking why you are being singled out for this treatment might get results.

Otherwise, since the company has a published vesting requirement, you want to resign and move away before you achieve that requirement, you aren't in a strong negotiating position.  Let up on the vinegar and try a little honey.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

Youbet, you read the situation correctly. I have 3 months to go, but I HAVE to be out of here in 2.25 months. I asked nicely for a leave of absence so that I can collect my pension, study, and arrange my move while retaining my sanity, but that's when the Twilight Zone started. Of course, I wouldn't be in this situation had the HR person simply been able to offer some helpful advice when the voluntary RIF was going on just weeks ago. I asked her my pension situation, and her professional response was to email me a link to the pension doc. After I had read the thing for a good 20 minutes, I asked her for clarification on vesting dates, and she told me that I wouldn't vest. She was wrong. I could have taken the voluntary severance pay, collected unemployment, and gotten my pension. Of course, it took me about 6-7 e-mails to finally get her to admit that.

The real BS is, of course, that as soon as the project is done in another 4-5 months, 75% of the team will be asked to leave. They know it, and we know it, and they know that we know it, but they still have the gall to pretend that there's a future in this line of work. Let's put it this way: When the daughters and sons of current management are leaving the company, that oncoming light isn't the light of a brand-new day.

Was this venting or asking for advice? It's a bit of both. My manager is the type who will cling on to anything to get you to "work harder". As soon as he heard that I was interested in the pension, he immediately trotted out, "You'll have to work for it" as if the previous year had been a stroll on the beach. I'm debating if 2 months pay is worth that BS, or perhaps I should just make a professional but clean cut and get on with school and my new career.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

After I had read the thing for a good 20 minutes, I asked her for clarification on vesting dates, and she told me that I wouldn't vest. She was wrong. I could have taken the voluntary severance pay, collected unemployment, and gotten my pension. Of course, it took me about 6-7 e-mails to finally get her to admit that.

Ain't no lawyer, but if you can even remotely document the facts above, and if you state that you relied on this advice in making your decisions, it seems to me that the company may liable for giving you false information based upon which you made an otherwise sensible decision which in turn cost you thousands of dollars.

Time for legal advice? Maybe even a credible letter drafted by a lawyer would convince them to vest you and be done with it.

 

[Brat]

It is very difficult to change the rules on a pension plan. Were I you I would contact corporate the internal expert on the pension plan to find out how it operates.

The manager can choose whether or not you get a LOA to cover the last weeks at issue, but you may need to come back on duty to bridge the time. It may be that you can make arrangements to telecommute for the last couple weeks.

Be sure to get any opinion of the vesting service requirement in writing.

You may need to choose between showing up for work for the weeks in question and your other plans.

 

[Nords]

Youbet, you read the situation correctly. I have 3 months to go, but I HAVE to be out of here in 2.25 months.

So far this has been presented in terms of "I want to vest in my pension" and "I can't change my school date".

Yet it sounds like the pension is a one-time yes/no occurrence. You either get it or you don't, and the length of the thread makes me suspect that "not getting it" is a very painful option that would haunt you for a long time.

OTOH, how flexible is the school situation?

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

Nords, you're right. I'm cheap, and an economy-car-sized chunk of money is still money to me.
OK, the bitching stops here. I'll let you know in a few months if I left in peace without my pension, stuck it out to the bitter end and got my pension, or have gone postal (OK, you'll hear about that on CNN).

 

[youbet]

Buns......

Refer back to the "less vinegar, more honey" suggestion in my last post.....

It's very understandable that you are peeved that your school date will cause you to miss your pension vesting date by three weeks. It's very understandable that you're disappointed that your company cannot/will not make some sort of accomodation to help you. Your irritation and disappointment seem to be aggravated by your personal relationship with your manager and HR.

Nevertheless, you need to understand that when a company makes an exception to policy for one individual, especially in the area of ERISA controlled policies like pensions and vesting periods, the exception would have to be made for all employees, effectively changing the policy.

Normally, you do need to return to work from a loa and be reinstated before the loa time counts as seniority. And, normally, companies prefer to pay out unused vacation time as cash rather than extend seniority for the period of vacation time. I'm not saying I agree with these policies, I'm just telling you what is normal and customary.

Why not suck it up and try to work with your manager and HR to find a solution that's more win-win. How about Brat's idea of telecommuting? Or? Your manager and HR need some reason to treat your case differently that would be explainable to other employees and/or government regulators.

Not trying to give you a hard time....... Just trying to help you understand and level off since you may be irked enough that further negotiation and problem solving is impossible.

One other question. Why didn't you volunteer for the voluntary severance package when it was available a few weeks ago? Your own independent decision or as a result of advise you got from HR or your manager?

 

[Maximillion]

I suspect you are caught up in Corporate Policy and the HR People are not prepared to jeapordise their job for your job.

I am not sure how much you would lose by missinga few weeks of classes, should be pretty easy to catch up?

 

[Martha]

What is the leave of absence policy?

What is the vacation policy?

The answers to these questions would help in determining whether you might have any rights here.

(my gut feeling is that your are screwed, but I feel like we don't have enough facts)

 

[Texas Proud]

Also, why not see if you can get RIFed now... our company was doing it for people who later decided to leave... just go to HR and say you want the package now...

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

Good advice all around. It is important to step back a bit. I could tell going in that my older manager (who is now the manager's manager) was pissed that I had asked to be VRIFed and then just to be plainly RIFed. I can see why because she probably took it as a personal affront considering that she hired me, but after I explained to her that I needed to cover all the angles and that the dates aren't set by me, she seemed a little more understanding.

I'll step back a bit as well. I have already deleted the pension from my balance sheet, and frankly, it still looks about the same, so I guess I won't miss it that much. This way I can negotiate with far more flexibility by considering all the suggestions that you guys have offered: Telecommuting, LOA, groveling (just kidding), and leave out the going postal part.

Thanks all! Bitching BunsofVeal out!