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Old 09-12-2007, 06:54 AM   #41
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And "I've put you on my ignore list" has become a verbal assault weapon.
Tell you what: instead, how about I just release the profanity-laced diatribe I am withholding?
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:35 PM   #42
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Only handles are/can be banned from public forums. Individuals are never banned from forums. If they leave, they always do so willingly.

If someone is genuinely trying to troll a forum, a ban wont stop that. Getting a new email address and filling out a new forum application is clearly written within the job description of a troll.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:22 PM   #43
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If someone is genuinely trying to troll a forum, a ban wont stop that. Getting a new email address and filling out a new forum application is clearly written within the job description of a troll.
True, but generally the trolls are more frustrated than successful. For example they'll also need to get a new IP address, and the admins have a few special weapons up their sleeves beyond what's been publicly disclosed. No, I won't disclose that either.

It boils down to behavior. If a troll gets past all the software & moderation under a new identity and reverts to their prior behavior, it doesn't take long to figure it out-- a dozen posts at most for mike-1, less for others. They're banned again and they have to start all over again, so at this point most move on to other boards where the moderation is less vigilant. This explains why H0cus did so well at M*.

If a troll gets past all the software & moderation and behaves themselves in a new identity, then it's not a problem! All past sins are ignored and they start with a fresh slate. Of course I can't tell that it's ever happened, but moderators are only in the habit of screening IP addresses (and other indicators) if there's a sign of trouble.
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Old 09-12-2007, 04:49 PM   #44
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It's kinda funny that "Jumpstart" would jump in on this topic since based on some of his previous posts, he has completely tried to derail a thread or 2....So which troll was Jumpy in a previous life that he is an expert on new identities...?
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:07 PM   #45
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:23 PM   #46
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I have to work a regular job as do others on the mod crew but we do what we can to keep everything up to your standards. Given the time constraints some of us have, we really have to rely on members flagging some posts and issues that are in need of attention. We can't catch everything.

No offense to you all complaining about the mod's performance but where were you when volunteers were needed? If you all had the time and felt like you could do the job why didn't you all step up to the plate?
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:12 PM   #47
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It's kinda funny that "Jumpstart" would jump in on this topic since based on some of his previous posts, he has completely tried to derail a thread or 2....So which troll was Jumpy in a previous life that he is an expert on new identities...?
I haven't derailed any thread; I participated in them and stayed on topic. I also (once again) find your tone and accusations rude.
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:24 PM   #48
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Only handles are/can be banned from public forums. Individuals are never banned from forums. If they leave, they always do so willingly.

If someone is genuinely trying to troll a forum, a ban wont stop that. Getting a new email address and filling out a new forum application is clearly written within the job description of a troll.
1. This is not a public forum. It is a website owned by a private concern, to be used under the terms and conditions that they elect to establish.

2. People (not just handles) can, and have, been banned from many types of forums. Including pre-banning! Also, re-banning, once found to be a sock-puppet.

3. If by 'they do so willingly' you are indicating a veiled threat that if banned, surreptitious methods will be used to return in another guise, you might wanna check your bravado at the door: some forums include statements such as found below in their TOS, and some admins/operators can be a real pain to people they consider to be disrupting or breaking into their resource, and may contact your own ISP, since you are likely breaking your own TOS with them by persisting where you have been asked to leave.


Hypothetically.


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Old 09-12-2007, 09:40 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by DRiP Guy View Post
1. This is not a public forum. It is a website owned by a private concern, to be used under the terms and conditions that they elect to establish.

2. People (not just handles) can, and have, been banned from many types of forums. Including pre-banning! Also, re-banning, once found to be a sock-puppet.

3. If by 'they do so willingly' you are indicating a veiled threat that if banned, surreptitious methods will be used to return in another guise, you might wanna check your bravado at the door: some forums include statements such as found below in their TOS, and some admins/operators can be a real pain to people they consider to be disrupting or breaking into their resource, and may contact your own ISP, since you are likely breaking your own TOS with them by persisting where you have been asked to leave.

Hypothetically.
Oh Dearie me! I am so glad we have alert and concerned individuals like you tirelessly protecting us!

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Old 09-12-2007, 09:53 PM   #50
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Get with the program, Ha. In this town you're either a sheriff, an ex-sheriff, or a wanna-be-sheriff. Which are you? Or are you some kind of trouble-makin' troll?

Are you now or have you ever been a member of an unmoderated Usenet group?

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Old 09-12-2007, 10:49 PM   #51
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Do you really feel that way, twaddle? Do you feel confined and forced to conform? I've have yet to see you hold back. Do you really feel the moderators on this board have run a cult not allowing any opinion that does not conform to the 4 pillars of investing? Are all 100k+ posts on this board incense burned before the statue of Bogle? I don't believe you think that, or else you wouldn't still be here.

If you have a serious beef with how things are run, please, by all means, lay them out. Posting a clip from your favorite '70's body snatcher movie doesn't seem constructive.

Oh, woe for the "free spirits" and "victims of over-moderation" just because they verbally harassed a few dozen people - just for fun - or presented a different yet equally plausible view like high fee mutual funds rock, variable annuities are the way to go, water isn't wet, gravity doesn't always work, Kiyosaki is a genius. They are immediately met a lynch mob of zealous, mindless slaves to dogma. Considering how many long timers and former moderators post much less frequently now, or not at all, I'd say the "free spirits" are the ones who have done the job of running people off, not the other way around.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:03 PM   #52
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d00d, are you following the same threads I am?

I just saw a beagle make an unprovoked attack on a new member. A suspected troll, of all things. Maybe I'm missing some history on those two, but that seemed uncalled for. Did you moderate? Did anybody?

No, instead another member recited the Miranda Act.

Normally, I ignore these little tiffs. But this has become a frequent occurance here. I have no idea what's going on, but I sense that the mods and ex-mods aren't exactly setting great examples.

Personally, I get my share of attacks, but I treat it as sport, and I very rarely make ad hominem attacks. I don't think I've ever called anybody a troll.

How 'bout we just ban the use of the word "troll." Maybe that would help. Or maybe the nasty atmosphere here is all in my head. Stranger things have happened.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:24 PM   #53
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I would agree things seem to be at a low ebb for civility, but the mods are under attack right now for moderating. The OP is now asking for members to take matters into their own hands by using ignore, a bunch of people jumped in shouting free speech, and the free for all was on again. Did I miss something?

The moderators are slammed for being heavy handed, then slammed for letting things run amok. That's the price to pay, but it would be a real shame to see this community unravel because of a few contentious posters running most others off.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:37 PM   #54
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I don't think it's a matter of mods doing too much or not enough. Let's look for root causes.

We have a few people with "moderator emeritus" titles, and we have a few more with "moderator" titles. Like it or not, those people will be looked at as models for proper behavior. The norms are established by the alpha dogs here.

So, if any of those respected alpha dogs engage in attack behavior, that says "it's OK to engage in attack behavior" to all the other pups here. Even worse is when the alpha dogs show that they are a united force and give one another public high-5's.

Some of the mods and ex-mods here are outstanding, diplomatic, and keep all of their reprimands out of the public space. One or two tolerate and/or engage in anti-social behavior. I'm not going to name any names, and certainly the problem isn't limited to the alpha dogs, but the alpha dogs lead the pack.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:59 PM   #55
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Hmm, well I guess I didn't notice any deference paid to me, but I can be obtuse. A community of FIRE minded anti-establishmentarianists following "alpha dogs"? Hmmm.

I certainly respect the notion of not naming names, but if you think mods are abusing their powers and/or positions, then provide that feedback. PM's work just fine, you can also report the post and it will only be seen by the moderators. - having said that, I would not be surprised to get a PM myself.

After all is said and done, the goal is to provide a board that the maximum number of people can enjoy and learn from. Sometimes we may fail in our duties, or fail to separate our moderator powers from our personal involvement in threads. I have never banned or moderated a person I was engaged in debate with, but had my moderator label led to undue influence or intimidation on the board, I am sincerely sorry.
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:03 AM   #56
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I'm not going to call anybody out, as fun as that would be, but here are a few random suggestions:

1) If you don't already have something, maybe the mods could have their own code of conduct.

2) Kill the "moderator emeritus" titles unless those who have them agree to uphold that same code of conduct.

3) Create one or more generic "moderator" accounts and use those for moderation. Make wild and crazy posts under your own name and personality, and make moderation a nameless and faceless job.
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:52 AM   #57
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Thanks for the feedback. I'll make sure the this is seen by the rest of the mods.
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:59 AM   #58
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3) Create one or more generic "moderator" accounts and use those for moderation. Make wild and crazy posts under your own name and personality, and make moderation a nameless and faceless job.
I think the other two might be good ideas, but I give a big thumbs down to #3. Leaving the mod tags on personal IDs keeps things out in the open.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:18 AM   #59
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d00d, are you following the same threads I am?

I just saw a beagle make an unprovoked attack on a new member. A suspected troll, of all things. Maybe I'm missing some history on those two, but that seemed uncalled for. Did you moderate? Did anybody?

No, instead another member recited the Miranda Act.

How 'bout we just ban the use of the word "troll." Maybe that would help. Or maybe the nasty atmosphere here is all in my head. Stranger things have happened.
That "new member" turned out to be an old member previously banned...Yes, Lawerance rebanned the miscreant...See how I didnt use the "T" word
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:20 AM   #60
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I think the other two might be good ideas, but I give a big thumbs down to #3. Leaving the mod tags on personal IDs keeps things out in the open.
Well, I think (3) may be the only one with any teeth. It solves several problems:

-- Who wants to be a mod if they can't particpate freely in the threads without a lot of self-censorship?

-- A generic mod account might make it easier for the mods to regulate one another (and the ex-mods) when they're "out of uniform" and out of line.

-- It makes it easier for them to keep the peace without fear of retribution and without taking the often thankless feedback on moderation personally.

The downside is that bad moderator calls wouldn't be as accountable, but if they have their own code of conduct, it should be easy for them to hold themselves accountable.

Bottom-line is that moderation is a thankless task, and it's never going to be easy to herd cats, so I was just focusing on changes that *might* help without increasing their load. Feel free to come up with other alternatives or other possible root causes.
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