Don't Feed the GDed Trolls - Page 3

brewer12345 · 09-12-2007, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaddle

And "I've put you on my ignore list" has become a verbal assault weapon.

Tell you what: instead, how about I just release the profanity-laced diatribe I am withholding?

jumpstart · 09-12-2007, 01:35 PM

Only handles are/can be banned from public forums. Individuals are never banned from forums. If they leave, they always do so willingly.

If someone is genuinely trying to troll a forum, a ban wont stop that. Getting a new email address and filling out a new forum application is clearly written within the job description of a troll.

Nords · 09-12-2007, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpstart

If someone is genuinely trying to troll a forum, a ban wont stop that. Getting a new email address and filling out a new forum application is clearly written within the job description of a troll.

True, but generally the trolls are more frustrated than successful. For example they'll also need to get a new IP address, and the admins have a few special weapons up their sleeves beyond what's been publicly disclosed. No, I won't disclose that either.

It boils down to behavior. If a troll gets past all the software & moderation under a new identity and reverts to their prior behavior, it doesn't take long to figure it out-- a dozen posts at most for mike-1, less for others. They're banned again and they have to start all over again, so at this point most move on to other boards where the moderation is less vigilant. This explains why H0cus did so well at M*.

If a troll gets past all the software & moderation and behaves themselves in a new identity, then it's not a problem! All past sins are ignored and they start with a fresh slate. Of course I can't tell that it's ever happened, but moderators are only in the habit of screening IP addresses (and other indicators) if there's a sign of trouble.

maddythebeagle · 09-12-2007, 05:49 PM

It's kinda funny that "Jumpstart" would jump in on this topic since based on some of his previous posts, he has completely tried to derail a thread or 2....So which troll was Jumpy in a previous life that he is an expert on new identities...?

twaddle · 09-12-2007, 06:07 PM

wildcat · 09-12-2007, 06:23 PM

I have to work a regular job as do others on the mod crew but we do what we can to keep everything up to your standards. Given the time constraints some of us have, we really have to rely on members flagging some posts and issues that are in need of attention. We can't catch everything.

No offense to you all complaining about the mod's performance but where were you when volunteers were needed? If you all had the time and felt like you could do the job why didn't you all step up to the plate?

jumpstart · 09-12-2007, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maddythebeagle

It's kinda funny that "Jumpstart" would jump in on this topic since based on some of his previous posts, he has completely tried to derail a thread or 2....So which troll was Jumpy in a previous life that he is an expert on new identities...?

I haven't derailed any thread; I participated in them and stayed on topic. I also (once again) find your tone and accusations rude.

DRiP Guy · 09-12-2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpstart

Only handles are/can be banned from public forums. Individuals are never banned from forums. If they leave, they always do so willingly.

If someone is genuinely trying to troll a forum, a ban wont stop that. Getting a new email address and filling out a new forum application is clearly written within the job description of a troll.

1. This is not a public forum. It is a website owned by a private concern, to be used under the terms and conditions that they elect to establish.

2. People (not just handles) can, and have, been banned from many types of forums. Including pre-banning! Also, re-banning, once found to be a sock-puppet.

3. If by 'they do so willingly' you are indicating a veiled threat that if banned, surreptitious methods will be used to return in another guise, you might wanna check your bravado at the door: some forums include statements such as found below in their TOS, and some admins/operators can be a real pain to people they consider to be disrupting or breaking into their resource, and may contact your own ISP, since you are likely breaking your own TOS with them by persisting where you have been asked to leave.

Hypothetically.

Quote:

Banning
If you are banned you will respect the decision of this board and will not sign up with a different alias as an effort to defraud the good will of this board nor its member base by doing such. If a banned member continuously attempts to harass the board and/or it's members the personal information of that banned person will be forwarded to he responsible authorities and the offender will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

haha · 09-12-2007, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRiP Guy

1. This is not a public forum. It is a website owned by a private concern, to be used under the terms and conditions that they elect to establish.

2. People (not just handles) can, and have, been banned from many types of forums. Including pre-banning! Also, re-banning, once found to be a sock-puppet.

3. If by 'they do so willingly' you are indicating a veiled threat that if banned, surreptitious methods will be used to return in another guise, you might wanna check your bravado at the door: some forums include statements such as found below in their TOS, and some admins/operators can be a real pain to people they consider to be disrupting or breaking into their resource, and may contact your own ISP, since you are likely breaking your own TOS with them by persisting where you have been asked to leave.

Hypothetically.

Oh Dearie me! I am so glad we have alert and concerned individuals like you tirelessly protecting us!

Ha

twaddle · 09-12-2007, 10:53 PM

Get with the program, Ha. In this town you're either a sheriff, an ex-sheriff, or a wanna-be-sheriff. Which are you? Or are you some kind of trouble-makin' troll?

Are you now or have you ever been a member of an unmoderated Usenet group?

laurence · 09-12-2007, 11:49 PM

Do you really feel that way, twaddle? Do you feel confined and forced to conform? I've have yet to see you hold back. Do you really feel the moderators on this board have run a cult not allowing any opinion that does not conform to the 4 pillars of investing? Are all 100k+ posts on this board incense burned before the statue of Bogle? I don't believe you think that, or else you wouldn't still be here.

If you have a serious beef with how things are run, please, by all means, lay them out. Posting a clip from your favorite '70's body snatcher movie doesn't seem constructive.

Oh, woe for the "free spirits" and "victims of over-moderation" just because they verbally harassed a few dozen people - just for fun - or presented a different yet equally plausible view like high fee mutual funds rock, variable annuities are the way to go, water isn't wet, gravity doesn't always work, Kiyosaki is a genius. They are immediately met a lynch mob of zealous, mindless slaves to dogma. Considering how many long timers and former moderators post much less frequently now, or not at all, I'd say the "free spirits" are the ones who have done the job of running people off, not the other way around.

twaddle · 09-13-2007, 12:03 AM

d00d, are you following the same threads I am?

I just saw a beagle make an unprovoked attack on a new member. A suspected troll, of all things. Maybe I'm missing some history on those two, but that seemed uncalled for. Did you moderate? Did anybody?

No, instead another member recited the Miranda Act.

Normally, I ignore these little tiffs. But this has become a frequent occurance here. I have no idea what's going on, but I sense that the mods and ex-mods aren't exactly setting great examples.

Personally, I get my share of attacks, but I treat it as sport, and I very rarely make ad hominem attacks. I don't think I've ever called anybody a troll.

How 'bout we just ban the use of the word "troll." Maybe that would help. Or maybe the nasty atmosphere here is all in my head. Stranger things have happened.

laurence · 09-13-2007, 12:24 AM

I would agree things seem to be at a low ebb for civility, but the mods are under attack right now for moderating. The OP is now asking for members to take matters into their own hands by using ignore, a bunch of people jumped in shouting free speech, and the free for all was on again. Did I miss something?

The moderators are slammed for being heavy handed, then slammed for letting things run amok. That's the price to pay, but it would be a real shame to see this community unravel because of a few contentious posters running most others off.

twaddle · 09-13-2007, 12:37 AM

I don't think it's a matter of mods doing too much or not enough. Let's look for root causes.

We have a few people with "moderator emeritus" titles, and we have a few more with "moderator" titles. Like it or not, those people will be looked at as models for proper behavior. The norms are established by the alpha dogs here.

So, if any of those respected alpha dogs engage in attack behavior, that says "it's OK to engage in attack behavior" to all the other pups here. Even worse is when the alpha dogs show that they are a united force and give one another public high-5's.

Some of the mods and ex-mods here are outstanding, diplomatic, and keep all of their reprimands out of the public space. One or two tolerate and/or engage in anti-social behavior. I'm not going to name any names, and certainly the problem isn't limited to the alpha dogs, but the alpha dogs lead the pack.

laurence · 09-13-2007, 12:59 AM

Hmm, well I guess I didn't notice any deference paid to me, but I can be obtuse. A community of FIRE minded anti-establishmentarianists following "alpha dogs"? Hmmm.

I certainly respect the notion of not naming names, but if you think mods are abusing their powers and/or positions, then provide that feedback. PM's work just fine, you can also report the post and it will only be seen by the moderators. - having said that, I would not be surprised to get a PM myself.

After all is said and done, the goal is to provide a board that the maximum number of people can enjoy and learn from. Sometimes we may fail in our duties, or fail to separate our moderator powers from our personal involvement in threads. I have never banned or moderated a person I was engaged in debate with, but had my moderator label led to undue influence or intimidation on the board, I am sincerely sorry.

twaddle · 09-13-2007, 01:03 AM

I'm not going to call anybody out, as fun as that would be, but here are a few random suggestions:

1) If you don't already have something, maybe the mods could have their own code of conduct.

2) Kill the "moderator emeritus" titles unless those who have them agree to uphold that same code of conduct.

3) Create one or more generic "moderator" accounts and use those for moderation. Make wild and crazy posts under your own name and personality, and make moderation a nameless and faceless job.

laurence · 09-13-2007, 09:52 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I'll make sure the this is seen by the rest of the mods.

brewer12345 · 09-13-2007, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaddle

3) Create one or more generic "moderator" accounts and use those for moderation. Make wild and crazy posts under your own name and personality, and make moderation a nameless and faceless job.

I think the other two might be good ideas, but I give a big thumbs down to #3. Leaving the mod tags on personal IDs keeps things out in the open.

maddythebeagle · 09-13-2007, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twaddle

d00d, are you following the same threads I am?

I just saw a beagle make an unprovoked attack on a new member. A suspected troll, of all things. Maybe I'm missing some history on those two, but that seemed uncalled for. Did you moderate? Did anybody?

No, instead another member recited the Miranda Act.

How 'bout we just ban the use of the word "troll." Maybe that would help. Or maybe the nasty atmosphere here is all in my head. Stranger things have happened.

That "new member" turned out to be an old member previously banned...Yes, Lawerance rebanned the miscreant...See how I didnt use the "T" word

09-12-2007, 05:49 PM	#44
maddythebeagle Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,439	It's kinda funny that "Jumpstart" would jump in on this topic since based on some of his previous posts, he has completely tried to derail a thread or 2....So which troll was Jumpy in a previous life that he is an expert on new identities...? __________________ - Hurry! to the cliffs of insanity!

09-12-2007, 06:07 PM	#45
twaddle Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,377	__________________ Favorite ERF quote: "I'm not going to waste my time on someone who's more interested in being stubborn or obtuse or intolerant." -- Nords Favorite ERF error message: "Sorry Nords is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."

09-12-2007, 06:23 PM	#46
wildcat Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,896	I have to work a regular job as do others on the mod crew but we do what we can to keep everything up to your standards. Given the time constraints some of us have, we really have to rely on members flagging some posts and issues that are in need of attention. We can't catch everything. No offense to you all complaining about the mod's performance but where were you when volunteers were needed? If you all had the time and felt like you could do the job why didn't you all step up to the plate? __________________ "These walls are kind of funny. First you hate 'em, then you get used to 'em. Enough time passes, gets so you depend on them"

09-12-2007, 10:53 PM	#50
twaddle Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,377	Get with the program, Ha. In this town you're either a sheriff, an ex-sheriff, or a wanna-be-sheriff. Which are you? Or are you some kind of trouble-makin' troll? Are you now or have you ever been a member of an unmoderated Usenet group? __________________ Favorite ERF quote: "I'm not going to waste my time on someone who's more interested in being stubborn or obtuse or intolerant." -- Nords Favorite ERF error message: "Sorry Nords is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."

09-13-2007, 12:03 AM	#52
twaddle Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,377	d00d, are you following the same threads I am? I just saw a beagle make an unprovoked attack on a new member. A suspected troll, of all things. Maybe I'm missing some history on those two, but that seemed uncalled for. Did you moderate? Did anybody? No, instead another member recited the Miranda Act. Normally, I ignore these little tiffs. But this has become a frequent occurance here. I have no idea what's going on, but I sense that the mods and ex-mods aren't exactly setting great examples. Personally, I get my share of attacks, but I treat it as sport, and I very rarely make ad hominem attacks. I don't think I've ever called anybody a troll. How 'bout we just ban the use of the word "troll." Maybe that would help. Or maybe the nasty atmosphere here is all in my head. Stranger things have happened. __________________ Favorite ERF quote: "I'm not going to waste my time on someone who's more interested in being stubborn or obtuse or intolerant." -- Nords Favorite ERF error message: "Sorry Nords is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."

09-12-2007, 01:35 PM	#42
jumpstart Dryer sheet aficionado Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 26	Only handles are/can be banned from public forums. Individuals are never banned from forums. If they leave, they always do so willingly. If someone is genuinely trying to troll a forum, a ban wont stop that. Getting a new email address and filling out a new forum application is clearly written within the job description of a troll.

09-12-2007, 11:49 PM	#51
laurence Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 4,748	Do you really feel that way, twaddle? Do you feel confined and forced to conform? I've have yet to see you hold back. Do you really feel the moderators on this board have run a cult not allowing any opinion that does not conform to the 4 pillars of investing? Are all 100k+ posts on this board incense burned before the statue of Bogle? I don't believe you think that, or else you wouldn't still be here. If you have a serious beef with how things are run, please, by all means, lay them out. Posting a clip from your favorite '70's body snatcher movie doesn't seem constructive. Oh, woe for the "free spirits" and "victims of over-moderation" just because they verbally harassed a few dozen people - just for fun - or presented a different yet equally plausible view like high fee mutual funds rock, variable annuities are the way to go, water isn't wet, gravity doesn't always work, Kiyosaki is a genius. They are immediately met a lynch mob of zealous, mindless slaves to dogma. Considering how many long timers and former moderators post much less frequently now, or not at all, I'd say the "free spirits" are the ones who have done the job of running people off, not the other way around.

09-13-2007, 12:24 AM	#53
laurence Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 4,748	I would agree things seem to be at a low ebb for civility, but the mods are under attack right now for moderating. The OP is now asking for members to take matters into their own hands by using ignore, a bunch of people jumped in shouting free speech, and the free for all was on again. Did I miss something? The moderators are slammed for being heavy handed, then slammed for letting things run amok. That's the price to pay, but it would be a real shame to see this community unravel because of a few contentious posters running most others off.

09-13-2007, 12:37 AM	#54
twaddle Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,377	I don't think it's a matter of mods doing too much or not enough. Let's look for root causes. We have a few people with "moderator emeritus" titles, and we have a few more with "moderator" titles. Like it or not, those people will be looked at as models for proper behavior. The norms are established by the alpha dogs here. So, if any of those respected alpha dogs engage in attack behavior, that says "it's OK to engage in attack behavior" to all the other pups here. Even worse is when the alpha dogs show that they are a united force and give one another public high-5's. Some of the mods and ex-mods here are outstanding, diplomatic, and keep all of their reprimands out of the public space. One or two tolerate and/or engage in anti-social behavior. I'm not going to name any names, and certainly the problem isn't limited to the alpha dogs, but the alpha dogs lead the pack. __________________ Favorite ERF quote: "I'm not going to waste my time on someone who's more interested in being stubborn or obtuse or intolerant." -- Nords Favorite ERF error message: "Sorry Nords is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."

09-13-2007, 12:59 AM	#55
laurence Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 4,748	Hmm, well I guess I didn't notice any deference paid to me, but I can be obtuse. A community of FIRE minded anti-establishmentarianists following "alpha dogs"? Hmmm. I certainly respect the notion of not naming names, but if you think mods are abusing their powers and/or positions, then provide that feedback. PM's work just fine, you can also report the post and it will only be seen by the moderators. - having said that, I would not be surprised to get a PM myself. After all is said and done, the goal is to provide a board that the maximum number of people can enjoy and learn from. Sometimes we may fail in our duties, or fail to separate our moderator powers from our personal involvement in threads. I have never banned or moderated a person I was engaged in debate with, but had my moderator label led to undue influence or intimidation on the board, I am sincerely sorry.

09-13-2007, 01:03 AM	#56
twaddle Thinks s/he gets paid by the post Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,377	I'm not going to call anybody out, as fun as that would be, but here are a few random suggestions: 1) If you don't already have something, maybe the mods could have their own code of conduct. 2) Kill the "moderator emeritus" titles unless those who have them agree to uphold that same code of conduct. 3) Create one or more generic "moderator" accounts and use those for moderation. Make wild and crazy posts under your own name and personality, and make moderation a nameless and faceless job. __________________ Favorite ERF quote: "I'm not going to waste my time on someone who's more interested in being stubborn or obtuse or intolerant." -- Nords Favorite ERF error message: "Sorry Nords is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."

09-13-2007, 09:52 AM	#57
laurence Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 4,748	Thanks for the feedback. I'll make sure the this is seen by the rest of the mods.